Drowning pigs

[Zzyzx]

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According to the Gospels, in a Jewish area / town Gerasene, Jesus cast demons into a herd of 2000 swine " that committed suicide by running into the sea.

There are three somewhat different versions: Matthew 8:28-34; Mark 5:1-20, Luke 8:26-39.

Observations:

1. Pigs can swim
2. Why would herdsmen have 2000 swine? Were they kept as pets?
3. Swine are 'unclean animals' not to be eaten by Jews.
4. Two thousand animals of any kind would have represented a great investment and great responsibility. Was compensation paid?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 10 by Zzyzx]

...a mountain... can be defined acccording to Merriam's as "an elongated ridge"

I did as anyone that read my post could see.

It would be prudent to consider the actual definition from www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mountain

Definition of mountain
[...] b : an elongated ridge

Either way, however, there is no indication that a 'cliff' is implied with either an elevated landmass or a elongated ridge.

The "indication" is in the meaning of the words as explained in my post (LINK here).
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 60#1003960

[JehovahsWitness]

There is NO indication they were 'driven' as you claim.

LUKE 8 :30-33

He said: Legion, for many demons had entered into him. 31 And they kept pleading with him not to order them to go away into the abyss.+ 32 Now a large herd of swine+ was feeding there on the mountain, so they pleaded with him to permit them to enter into the swine, and he gave them permission.+ 33 With that the demons came out of the man and went into the swine, and the herd rushed over the precipice* into the lake and drowned

On the contrary the context indicates the pigs rushed over the precipice due to demonic influence.



JW

[Zzyzx]

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[Replying to post 11 by JehovahsWitness]

As I said earlier:

It would be prudent to consider the actual definition from www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mountain

Definition of mountain
1a : a landmass that projects conspicuously above its surroundings and is higher than a hill The sun set behind the mountains.
b : an elongated ridge

Either way, however, there is no indication that a 'cliff' is implied with either an elevated landmass or a elongated ridge. Is this just something made up to make the story sound rational?

Luke disagrees with 'mountain' " A large herd of pigs was feeding there on the hillside

Playing word games does not change what Mark said " 'steep bank' or what Luke said " hillside

For additional definitions of mountain, consult:
https://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/ ... n/mountain
https://www.yourdictionary.com/mountain
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/scie ... mountains/
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dic ... h/mountain

None of which include 'elongated ridge' or any mention of 'cliff'

On the contrary the context indicates the pigs rushed over the precipice due to demonic influence.

Of course, now we have 'demonic influence' 'driving' pigs (down a steep slope). Have to watch out for those demons . . .



Thank you for continuing the dialogue -- allowing readers to consider the merits of what is presented by Apologists in response to challenges to the ancient mythology.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 3 by Zzyzx]

WHY WOULD THERE HAVE BEEN PIG FARMING IN THE REGION OF "GERASENES"?

• The gospels report Jesus and his Apotles as crossing in a boat to the Eastern shore of the Sea of Galilee. Mark and Luke, employed the term country of the Gerasenes. (Matthew it is believed originally described the area as the country of the Gadarenes). The exact limits of this region are today unknown, but some suggest that the designation may have applied to the large district radiating from the city of Gerasa (Gergesa)* on the border between Decapolis and Trachonitus
  
  *Jerash (to the Romans: Gerasa)
  
  
  
  
  

WOULD THERE HAVE BEEN A SIGNIFICANT GREEK/NON-JEWISH POPULATION IN THE REGION?

• Speaking of the cities in this region wikipedia states the Decapolis was a center of Greek and Roman culture in a region which was otherwise populated by Semitic-speaking people (Nabataeans, Arameans, and Judeans).

  The book,Hellenism, by Norman Bentwich observes regarding the region:
  

  It was part of the plan of Alexander to introduce the Greek people into all parts of the empire. Lower Syria [including the Decapolis], especially, as one of the strategic centres, received a large Hellenic population. To this day no part of the eastern world can show so many and such striking Greek ruins as the country east of the Jordan.

CONCLUSION There is much evidence that there would have been a significant gentile (Syrian, Greek/Roman ) presence in the region of the DECAPOLIS. They is nothing that stretches credulity to suggest that the farms and villages near the northern banks of the Sea off Galilee suppied the non-Jewsih populations with pig meat.




JW


RELATED POSTS

Why did Luke call the Sea of Galilee "a lake"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 62#1003962

Why might there have been such a large pig farm in the region? [this post]
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 00#1004000

Were the pigs on a hill or a mountain?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 65#1003965

What pushed the pigs to run as they did?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 68#1003968

Did the pigs run off "a cliff"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 60#1003960

[Zzyzx]

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[Replying to post 14 by JehovahsWitness]

Where are the cliffs you mention?

[Willum]

There is another discrepancy in the story involving freewill.
God cannot command man nor demon who is not willing to follow him, against their freewill.
That is a cornerstone of the religion, even to Adam and Eve defying God.

Now I have heard interpretations of the New Testament, that Jesus was actually a representative of Satan, or evil in general.

Were this true, the demons would have allegiance to Jesus, and do what he says.
Is there another interpretation that makes sense?

[1213]

...Im more interested in why the devils asked to go into the pigs in the first place. All three gospel writers agree on the fact that the devils specifically asked for the pigs. Jesus does exactly as they ask (nice), and then they suddenly rush into a body of water of some description.....

Interesting question and it seems that the demons were not very bright, because they asked not command them to go into the abyss (Luke 8:31) and then they chose the pigs that went into the abyss the herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake, and were drowned (Luke 8:33). Sounds quite ironic.

[JehovahsWitness]

...Im more interested in why the devils asked to go into the pigs in the first place. All three gospel writers agree on the fact that the devils specifically asked for the pigs. Jesus does exactly as they ask (nice), and then they suddenly rush into a body of water of some description.....

Interesting question and it seems that the demons were not very bright, because they asked not command them to go into the abyss (Luke 8:31) and then they chose the pigs that went into the abyss the herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake, and were drowned (Luke 8:33). Sounds quite ironic.

Are you absolutely certain that the abyss the demons begged not to be sent to referred to the sea of Galilee? Are there any questions one could ask to see if one has properly examined the passage? For example, do you think a demon can be drowned with water? Did those demons die (ceased to exist) that day? Is the word "abysse" mentioned anywhere else in scripture and if so, what does it refer to?

[Yahwehismywitness]

There are three important parasites found in pigs which pose a risk to humans who ingest raw or undercooked pork products. These parasites are Trichinella spiralis, a nematode or roundworm, Taenia solium, a tapeworm, and Toxoplasma gondii, a protozoan or single-celled organism.

In case some of these little critters survive cooking I do not eat piggy.

Chagas disease, an infection caused by a parasite that can lead to life-threatening heart complications, is on the rise in the US

[Willum]

[Replying to post 18 by JehovahsWitness]

Are you absolutely certain that the abyss the demons begged not to be sent to referred to the sea of Galilee? Are there any questions one could ask to see if one has properly examined the passage? For example, do you think a demon can be drowned with water? Did those demons die (ceased to exist) that day? Is the word "abysse" mentioned anywhere else in scripture and if so, what does it refer to?

You are one who represents religion, who should NOT be cynical about it.
Those questions are yours to answer.
That you ask questions about your own religion, makes observers have little faith in your own understanding of it.
If you don't understand it, how can you believe it?
If you can't believe it, how are we to stake your opinion about it?