God's truth about hell

[Checkpoint]

This thread stems from this short beginning exchange about hell and truth:


Checkpoint wrote:

Hi again, Pinseeker.

What is it that makes them "truths" rather than "untruths", as you see them, in brief ?

What specifically makes them "very hard truths", do you think?

Pinseeker wrote

Hey, Checkpoint.

I guess the only way to answer the first question is, if God says it, it's true.

To the second, I would say "very hard truths" does not mean "very difficult-to-undertand truths." What I mean is, many people do not want to hear about hell, and/or do not want to accept God's truth about hell. It scares them, it offends them, it's obcene to them... etc. Even believers like me just... well, I shudder at it. It... well, it scares the H-E-double-toothpick out of me. But it's important, even vital to our understanding of the Gospel. Take a look at this if you want:

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/hell/[/quote]

Checkpoint responded

Ah yes Pinseeker, what you say here raises questions rather than gives answers, in my opinion.

1) Do we really grasp what "God's truth about hell" actually is?

2) In what way is it "important, even vital, to our understanding of the Gospel"?

3) Why is there such strong, even visceral, reaction to "God's truth about hell", so often expressed by both believers and unbelievers?

4) Who, or what, is being questioned here? God, or the Bible, or an interpretation?

Please discuss, debate, and/or give your answer to any of these questions, or just comment or make an observation.

[PinSeeker]

I will say this, finally:

People often feel that hell is some great blemish on God’s love. The Bible presents it as the opposite. Hell magnifies for us the love of God by showing us how far God went, and how much He went through, to save us.

He went through what, to save us from what?

The consequence of sin, which is final, irrevocable judgment and condemnation. This is the second death. I've been very clear, as is Scripture.

Both answers are the same. Neither of them are "hell".

I agree. But hell is most certainly the location to which those still in sin and not redeemed at the time of the Judgment will be sent. There they will reside for eternity, permanently subject to that final Judgment.

The Lord make His face to shine on you.

To you also.

[myth-one.com]

Immortality was the gift to anyone, from Adam and Eve onward, who regularly ate the fruit of the tree (3:22).

Definition of immortality: Eternal life. Incapable of dying.

If one has to do something regularly to remain alive, they are NOT immortal!

Eating from the tree of life once gains one everlasting life:

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Mankind was separated from the tree of life to prevent them from gaining immortality.

Once gained, immortality cannot be taken away.

So there would be no cause to eat regularly from the tree of life to remain alive.

Living until some event occurs is not immortality.

[PinSeeker]

Immortality was the gift to anyone, from Adam and Eve onward, who regularly ate the fruit of the tree (3:22).

Definition of immortality: Eternal life. Incapable of dying.

If one has to do something regularly to remain alive, they are NOT immortal!

Eating from the tree of life once gains one everlasting life:

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Mankind was separated from the tree of life to prevent them from gaining immortality.

Once gained, immortality cannot be taken away.

So there would be no cause to eat regularly from the tree of life to remain alive.

Living until some event occurs is not immortality.

Such wooden quality of understanding. Only the Spirit can help that.

Grace and peace to you, myth-one.

[myth-one.com]

Such wooden quality of understanding. Only the Spirit can help that.

Powerful argument, PS.

God stated as follows:

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

You claim that eating of the tree of life gains one life only until the next eating from the tree of life.

God claims that eating from the tree gains one everlasting life.

Wooden or not, I'll have to side with God on this one.

May God open your eyes and mind.

[PinSeeker]

Such wooden quality of understanding. Only the Spirit can help that.

Powerful argument, PS.

Well this is not an argument, myth-one. It's just a statement of fact.

God claims that eating from the tree gains one everlasting life.

That's right, actually. And that was my point, and what you didn't -- and still don't, apparently -- understand fully.

Before this point (verse 22), Adam and Eve were not forbidden from eating from the tree of life, and presumably had. BUT NOW -- because they had eaten of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil which God had forbidden -- the privilege of eating of the fruit of the tree of life (and immortality) was being taken away from them (and the rest of humanity). They were banished from the Garden and no longer had access to the tree of life (and immortality).

May God open your eyes and mind.

It's not I who has his eyes and mind wide shut here, myth-one.

Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

God claims that eating from the tree of life gains one everlasting life.

That's right, actually. And that was my point, and what you didn't -- and still don't, apparently -- understand fully.

We agree that eating from the tree of life would gain Adam and Eve everlasting life.

No takes backs!

Before this point (verse 22), Adam and Eve were not forbidden from eating from the tree of life, and presumably had.

If they had already eaten from the tree of life and gained everlasting life, there would have been absolutely no reason for God to separate them from the tree of life -- as one everlasting life is sufficient for living forever.

Two times forever is forever.

A thousand times forever is forever.

A trillion times forever is forever.

You cannot add to or subtract from forever.

==========================================

God evicted them from the Garden of Eden to separate them from the tree of life.

Why separate them from the tree of life?

So they could not eat of its fruit and "live for ever."

If they had already eaten from the tree of life and gained everlasting life, there would be no reason to separate them from the tree of life.

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

The words used are "live forever."

Not "continue to live for awhile."

[PinSeeker]

Before this point (verse 22), Adam and Eve were not forbidden from eating from the tree of life, and presumably had.

If they had already eaten from the tree of life and gained everlasting life, there would have been absolutely no reason for God to separate them from the tree of life -- as one everlasting life is sufficient for living forever.

Wow. Such limited understanding.

No, before the Fall, they had access to the tree of life, and thus life itself. This was God's covenant with them... the Adamic Covenant, the covenant of life. Had there been no Fall, they would have continued eating of the tree of life -- sharing perfect communion with God -- and continued living, forever.

But alas, the Fall happened -- Adam sinned against God, disobeying Him -- and Adam and Eve were subsequently banished from the Garden, thereby losing access to the the tree of life and thus the life/immortality God had given them.

There is no argument against this that holds any water whatsoever.

So long, myth-one. My patience for your obstinacy and stubbornness unfortunately fails me, finally. Grace and peace to you.

P.S. My screen name is not and never has been "PinSetter." I could start calling you "myth-many" if you like...

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 127 by PinSeeker]

Pinseeker wrote(in a previous post):

Before this point (verse 22), Adam and Eve were not forbidden from eating from the tree of life, and presumably had.

To which you added:

Wow. Such limited understanding.

No, before the Fall, they had access to the tree of life, and thus life itself. This was God's covenant with them... the Adamic Covenant, the covenant of life. Had there been no Fall, they would have continued eating of the tree of life -- sharing perfect communion with God -- and continued living, forever.

But alas, the Fall happened -- Adam sinned against God, disobeying Him -- and Adam and Eve were subsequently banished from the Garden, thereby losing access to the the tree of life and thus the life/immortality God had given them.

There is no argument against this that holds any water whatsoever.

Oh yes there is!

Since when does a claim based on an assumption that then invents a covenant, hold any water whatsoever?

The Lord give you His peace.

[myth-one.com]

What God told Adam and Eve in Genesis 2:17 was that if they ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they would NO LONGER be immortal, that they would NO LONGER have access to the tree of life, that they would die in that very day (spiritually), that their days on the earth would be numbered... limited (physically).

Grace and peace to you both.

"NO LONGER be immortal" is an oxymoron.

An immortal being lives for all eternity.

And eternity has no end:

Eternity: unending in time.

Thus an immortal can never ever become "no longer immortal."

For example, the devil will be tormented day and night for ever and ever because he cannot die -- being an immortal spiritual bodied being.

God created man as mortal and every man and woman must accept or reject everlasting life.

It is our choice.

But once in, one cannot exit immortal life.

Why?

Because believers will be born again of the Spirit as spiritual bodied beings which can never die. There is no exit from everlasting life. Death is not an option for immortal beings.

============================================

Nonbelievers will be resurrected a thousand years after the Second Coming and make their final choice at that time.

This includes Adam and Eve, who were led into sin by the serpent's lie of their immortality.

[myth-one.com]

P.S. My screen name is not and never has been "PinSetter." I could start calling you "myth-many" if you like...

Sorry, sorry, truly sorry!

I should have cut and pasted, but I keyed it in.

Pin Setter is an old bowling term during the times before automatic mechanical machines which reset the bowling pins.

The words Pin Seeker do not associate with some event in my memory bank, but something else close did.

You can call me whatever you want, I deserve it.

But hopefully something which does not get you "moderated."

God bless you and yours, PinSeeker!!

============================================

P.S. It just occurred to me to do an internet search on "PinSeeker." Got the following:

Pin-seeker is a golf shot that is hit straight at the pin, or flagstick.

With that info & your Avatar, I finally get it!