God's deeds and efforts

[Willum]

So God has done some major things; creating a planet, moon, maybe more depending on interpretation, drowned a planet, created a tree with evil fruit, and cast folks out for eating it, turning people to salt, turning water in to wine... and so on.

I was hoping to discuss how efficient these acts were in accordance with its goals.

Can we create a sort of balance sheet, analogous to a business?

A business goals might be to make hammers or cars, or whatnots...
and it has investments in time and labour to accomplish these goals.

If we apply God's time and efforts to his goals, will we find that they are well applied to accomplishing them?

What are his goals, to begin with - is one to save mankind, for example?

Is effort any metric?
How about success?

Big topic, but is seems like a good exploratory one.

[tonjun]

I don't think our understanding of God is aligned to the true reality.

But as you mention balance sheets and stuff, it's probably a good way to put it.

There are gains and losses in business all in an effort to run the business.

What one does with his business is up to him.

Sure the business won't run 100% efficient all the time, but as long as the end goal is in play, it seems it will all still be moving towards that goal... whatever that goal is.

Perhaps there is a God who left us truth from real prophets here and there, but left us to decide for ourselves what is the right path.

There will be some gains and losses, but as long as we can discern, I think we'll be alright.

[Charles]

If we apply God's time and efforts to his goals, will we find that they are well applied to accomplishing them?

What are his goals, to begin with - is one to save mankind, for example?

IMCO:

I find GOD's purpose for our creation in the fact that after this reality is cleansed of all evil as told in the Revelation, the next and final order of business is the marriage of the Lamb to His flock; a full and holy communion and fellowship of emotional bonds of love and deep communication which is the culmination of the meaning of worldly marriage.

This purpose necessitated that we accept HIS marriage proposal by our own free will. Giving us a free will necessitated that we have the ability to reject HIM and rebel against HIS plans for us. It was our ability to make free will decisions that created the evil in HIS creation.

Those who accepted HIS claims to be our GOD and that salvation from all sin is only found in the Son were chosen to be HIS Bride in the future marriage. Those who rejected HIM as their GOD believing HE was a false god and a liar also rejected HIS wedding proposal becoming eternally evil and, as unfit to ever be HIS Bride, were condemned on the spot to eternal banishment to the outer darkness. Some of HIS elect then rebelled against HIS plan to condemn some of their friends as eternally evil and so become evil themselves, losing their free will to the power of sin to cloud their minds and wills but under the promise of salvation in their election.

This forced the postponement of the judgement day as the parable of the weeds tells us: Matt 13:27 The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ 28 ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. So the servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up [bring the judgement upon them]?’

29 ‘NO,’ he said, ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. (ie, they are evil) 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. This clearly says that until the good seed is mature (the time of the harvest) in holiness (the only maturity that saves one from judgement), these sinful elect must live with the eternally evil ones until they learn to repent of their evil and to reject their idolatry of the eternal evil ones, accepting GOD's judgement upon them as righteous having learned by experience the suffering sin and rebellion causes.

Thus GOD created the earth to be a prison planet to sequester all sinners form the polite society of heaven. This prison has a rehab centre in it to bring HIS sinful elect to redemption and full sanctification.

That Satan was involved in the fall of some elect into evil is in Rev 12:3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: a huge red dragon with seven heads, ten horns, and seven royal crowns on his heads. 4 His tail swept a third of the stars from the sky, tossing them to the earth. And in verses 7-9 7 Then a war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But the dragon was not strong enough, and no longer was any place found in heaven for him and his angels. 9 And the great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. we see the depiction of Satan being locked into prison earth.

Since we know from Ps 9:17 the wicked RETURN to Sheol which is in the centre of the earth that Sheol is the prison cell for most of the demons though they do get born into mankind as the goats, the reprobate weeds, as the explanation (no metaphor, no hyperbole, no typology) of the parable of the weeds tells us Matt 13:36-39 ...“Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.�

37 He replied, “The One who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed represents the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil.

Thus to fulfill HIS purpose for a heavenly wedding HE must first cleanse HIS creation from all evil and earth is the prison where HE achieves this. HE allows the eternally evil ones to cause great suffering to HIS sinful elect so they learn about the true nature of their evil and learn to repent themsleves.

That this has been a slow process from our pov is due to both the frailty and the stubbornness of HIS sinful elect against being brought to holiness but in the greater scheme of things, what is a few thousand years in all eternity?

So, questions:
1: what is HIS goal? To cleanse HIS creation of evil and to marry all HIS elect in a heavenly marriage. I have proof this is a Christian pov but not for the reality of this answer nor has the world any proof of the non-reality of this answer...it is not a debatable question as it can only elicit opinions.

2. If we apply God's time and efforts to his goals, will we find that they are well applied to accomplishing them? This also calls only for opinions as there is no way to prove any failure or the actual success of the sanctification of the saints. As such I consider this to be in the wrong forum, as it is not a debatable topic.

[Thomas123]

I'm not falling for this a second time, Willum.

What are his goals, to begin with?- None
Is one to save mankind, for example?- No

[bluegreenearth]

So, questions:
1: what is HIS goal? To cleanse HIS creation of evil and to marry all HIS elect in a heavenly marriage. I have proof this is a Christian pov but not for the reality of this answer nor has the world any proof of the non-reality of this answer...it is not a debatable question as it can only elicit opinions.

2. If we apply God's time and efforts to his goals, will we find that they are well applied to accomplishing them? This also calls only for opinions as there is no way to prove any failure or the actual success of the sanctification of the saints. As such I consider this to be in the wrong forum, as it is not a debatable topic.

You seem to recognize the difference between this theological belief and an empirical reality. Furthermore, you seem to acknowledge the inability to demonstrate that this theological belief corresponds with an empirical reality. Therefore, how do you reconcile a high level of confidence in this theological belief with an inability to determine if it corresponds with an empirical reality?

Since beliefs inform actions and actions have objective consequences in an empirical reality, would you agree that it is more reasonable for actions to be informed by beliefs that have been demonstrated to correspond with an empirical reality?

[William]

Willum: So God has done some major things; creating a planet, moon, maybe more depending on interpretation, drowned a planet, created a tree with evil fruit, and cast folks out for eating it, turning people to salt, turning water in to wine... and so on.

I was hoping to discuss how efficient these acts were in accordance with its goals.

Can we create a sort of balance sheet, analogous to a business?

A business goals might be to make hammers or cars, or whatnots...
and it has investments in time and labour to accomplish these goals.

If we apply God's time and efforts to his goals, will we find that they are well applied to accomplishing them?

What are his goals, to begin with - is one to save mankind, for example?

Is effort any metric?
How about success?

Big topic, but is seems like a good exploratory one.

William: As a story of The Creator, we can agree it has some pretty strange accounts to do with the activities of The Creator, which do not align with the evidence.

That in itself does not exclude the idea of The Creator and The Creation, unless one wishes to use it for that purpose.

The thread OP excludes other ideas regarding The Creator from its list, so in that I do not think there is any threat of a "big topic" which can evolve into "a good exploratory one"

[Charles]

You seem to recognize the difference between this theological belief and an empirical reality. Furthermore, you seem to acknowledge the inability to demonstrate that this theological belief corresponds with an empirical reality. Therefore, how do you reconcile a high level of confidence in this theological belief with an inability to determine if it corresponds with an empirical reality?

My inability to prove to you the empirical reality I DO know is what I was talking about. I have empirical proof of GOD's reality, enough to suit me, but I cannot show / prove this reality to you any better than anyone else or the bible can so I don't try....prefering to tell you to go to the source like I did.

Empirical proof was given - seeing the creation of the whole physical universe before our very eyes caused everyone to sing HIS praises, Job 38:7, but this proof was suppressed (repressed) in sinners due to their sinfulness as Rom 1 explains over and over.

I know the truth. I cannot convince you of (prove to you) that truth. I contend that this failure to impart truth is found in the sceptic, not the presenter of the truth.

[Tcg]

I know the truth.

Correction. You believe you know the truth.

I cannot convince you of (prove to you) that truth.

If your belief was based on verifiable evidence, you could present it.

I contend that this failure to impart truth is found in the sceptic, not the presenter of the truth.

Ah yes, a return to the oft repeated ad hominem.


Tcg

[Zzyzx]

.

My inability to prove to you the empirical reality I DO know is what I was talking about. I have empirical proof of GOD's reality, enough to suit me, but I cannot show / prove this reality to you any better than anyone else or the bible can so I don't try....prefering to tell you to go to the source like I did.

Testimonials are worth nothing in debate. Claiming to have 'empirical proof of God's reality' – but being unable or unwilling to demonstrate that proof LACKS credibility with readers (though it might work in church).

Empirical proof was given - seeing the creation of the whole physical universe before our very eyes caused everyone to sing HIS praises,

OH, someone saw creation of the physical universe? Or did someone see the universe and attribute it to their favorite 'god' – with no verifiable evidence; nothing beyond ancient texts by religion promoters making the assertion.

I know the truth.

Of course you do – along with millions promoting one of the 'gods' worshiped, loved, feared, and fought over by humans – and all seem to KNOW very different directions.

I cannot convince you of (prove to you) that truth.

Agreed. You cannot convince me with unverifiable claims, testimonials, and stories.

I contend that this failure to impart truth is found in the sceptic, not the presenter of the truth.

The burden of proof is on the salesman / promoter / claimant. The listener / reader is under no obligation to accept what they are told – any more than to accept claims of oceanfront property in Iowa.

[bluegreenearth]

You seem to recognize the difference between this theological belief and an empirical reality. Furthermore, you seem to acknowledge the inability to demonstrate that this theological belief corresponds with an empirical reality. Therefore, how do you reconcile a high level of confidence in this theological belief with an inability to determine if it corresponds with an empirical reality?

My inability to prove to you the empirical reality I DO know is what I was talking about. I have empirical proof of GOD's reality, enough to suit me, but I cannot show / prove this reality to you any better than anyone else or the bible can so I don't try....prefering to tell you to go to the source like I did.

Empirical proof was given - seeing the creation of the whole physical universe before our very eyes caused everyone to sing HIS praises, Job 38:7, but this proof was suppressed (repressed) in sinners due to their sinfulness as Rom 1 explains over and over.

I know the truth. I cannot convince you of (prove to you) that truth. I contend that this failure to impart truth is found in the sceptic, not the presenter of the truth.

Since that empirical evidence equally supports competing theological and secular hypotheses, how do you recommend we proceed in determining which hypothesis is best supported by the empirical evidence?