Kings -- truth or fantasy?

[Zzyzx]

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Is this a truthful and accurate description of events that actually occurred in the real world?

2 Kings 2 King James Version (KJV)

1 And it came to pass, when the Lord would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.

2 And Elijah said unto Elisha, Tarry here, I pray thee; for the Lord hath sent me to Bethel. And Elisha said unto him, As the Lord liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. So they went down to Bethel.

3 And the sons of the prophets that were at Bethel came forth to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Lord will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he said, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace.

4 And Elijah said unto him, Elisha, tarry here, I pray thee; for the Lord hath sent me to Jericho. And he said, As the Lord liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. So they came to Jericho.

5 And the sons of the prophets that were at Jericho came to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Lord will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he answered, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace.

6 And Elijah said unto him, Tarry, I pray thee, here; for the Lord hath sent me to Jordan. And he said, As the Lord liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. And they two went on.

7 And fifty men of the sons of the prophets went, and stood to view afar off: and they two stood by Jordan.

8 And Elijah took his mantle, and wrapped it together, and smote the waters, and they were divided hither and thither, so that they two went over on dry ground.

9 And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me.

10 And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so.

11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.

13 He took up also the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and went back, and stood by the bank of Jordan;

14 And he took the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and smote the waters, and said, Where is the Lord God of Elijah? and when he also had smitten the waters, they parted hither and thither: and Elisha went over.

15 And when the sons of the prophets which were to view at Jericho saw him, they said, The spirit of Elijah doth rest on Elisha. And they came to meet him, and bowed themselves to the ground before him.

16 And they said unto him, Behold now, there be with thy servants fifty strong men; let them go, we pray thee, and seek thy master: lest peradventure the Spirit of the Lord hath taken him up, and cast him upon some mountain, or into some valley. And he said, Ye shall not send.

17 And when they urged him till he was ashamed, he said, Send. They sent therefore fifty men; and they sought three days, but found him not.

18 And when they came again to him, (for he tarried at Jericho,) he said unto them, Did I not say unto you, Go not?

19 And the men of the city said unto Elisha, Behold, I pray thee, the situation of this city is pleasant, as my lord seeth: but the water is naught, and the ground barren.

20 And he said, Bring me a new cruse, and put salt therein. And they brought it to him.

21 And he went forth unto the spring of the waters, and cast the salt in there, and said, Thus saith the Lord, I have healed these waters; there shall not be from thence any more death or barren land.

22 So the waters were healed unto this day, according to the saying of Elisha which he spake.

23 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.

24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

25 And he went from thence to mount Carmel, and from thence he returned to Samaria.

Bold added

Question for debate: (again) Is this a truthful and accurate description of events that actually occurred in the real world?

[JehovahsWitness]

ARE MIRACLES REAL?

I believe (ie it is of my opinion) that that which was described in the OP was what we call a miracle. In short "God did it".

Unless we are imposing atheistic bias to the account (ie first deciding there cannot be a god and then superimosing that belief on the narrative), then it is reasonable to conclude (atheistic confirmation bias aside) that, if there is a omnipotent God, there is nothing in the narrative itself that would push the account beyond the realms of reason.

In any case, since nobody can offer verifiable proof it wasn't a miracle or that it didnt happen exactly as described, thus any response to my post, will also by definition also be expressing a belief/opinion on the matter, whether the word (belief) is used or not. (For more on the question "can an atheist have a belief see post below by historia:
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 8#p1003078 )

MIRACLE

An extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs

source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/miracle

JW

FURTHER READING: Are Miracles Really Possible? - Three Common Objections
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2012562



RELATED POSTS

Analysis of a miracle: Assessing miraculous claims
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 09#p878409

Why are there no spectacular miracles such as those described in the bible today?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 39#p958339

Do "extraordinary Claims" always require extraordinary evidence?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 70#p330870

How can we tell if a miracle really happened?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 09#p878409

By what criteria should supernatural experiences be judged?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 38#p927538

How to distinguish between myth and miracle?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 22#p886322

To learn more go to other posts related to

MIRACLES , JESUS' MIRACLES, and MESSIANIC PROPHECY

[marco]

"And it came to pass, when the Lord would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal. "

There are imaginative stories that try to account for earthly things, such as the seasons being determined by Persephone's stay in the Underworld. Thunder and lightning are manifestations of divine anger. Though the Old Testament stuff is less imaginative than say Greek mythology it still clings to the idea that if only we had feathers we could fly to heaven. Icarus flew too close to the sun and Actaeon drove the sun chariot destructively. Here we have a wind that blows a human being into the sky, and thus into heaven.

Is this plausible? Yep, if you sleep with a bible under your pillow. But it is what primitives accepted and we in our knowledge must refrain from being contemptuous, for there was a day when the wheel was a miracle.

[marco]

I believe (ie it is of my opinion) that that which was described in the OP was what we call a miracle. In short "God did it".

Unless we are imposing atheistic bias to the account (ie first deciding there cannot be a god and then superimosing that belief on the narrative), then it is reasonable to conclude if there is a omnipotent God, there is nothing in the narrative itself that would push the account beyond the realms of reason.

Yes there is. Today we know what is above the clouds and we understand the force necessary to escape Earth's gravity. We also understand that the writers of these tales thought heaven was in the sky, in common with many other early civilisations. Hence we have God descending from his heavenly orchards on to high mountains and we have towers being built so people could peep into heaven. Jesus, bless him, continued the idea - why would he know otherwise? - and thought his dad had furniture in the sky somewhere. So nothing to do with atheist prejudice - it is common sense that the story is nonsense. Reason tells us.

I hope you are never discouraged from printing these little informative snippets, such as why don't we have miracles in the high street today: 'cos Paul said they would stop just before 100 AD. Simple as that. I always imagine some earnest soul sitting down over the pages of Paul and shouting "Eureka". It is both amusing and sad.

[JehovahsWitness]

Today we know what is above the clouds ...{snip}.

No, we know what we can detect above the clouds, we know we have thus found nothing above the clouds.... and we believe (depending on ones worldview) that what we can detect is all there can be. However, without presupposing the truth of naturalism, what we as humans know may well be unrealated to what is, in reality, there.

We thus do well not to confuse what we have detected and believe, with absolute truth, least we accidentally declare ourselves the very thing atheists do not believe exists.





JW

[marco]

No, we know what we can detect above the clouds, we know we have thus found nothing above the clouds.... and we believe (depending on ones worldview) that what we can detect is all there can be. However, without presupposjng the truth of naturalism, what we as humans know may well be unrealated to what is in reality there.

We thus do well not to confuse what we have detected and accept to be true, with absolute truth, least we acceidently declare ourselves the very thing atheist claim to believe does not exist.

Let me elucidate. I have no problem pondering the existence of dimensions not our own; in mathematics we work with n dimensions. I have no problem accepting the magical qualities of sub-atomic particles and their vanishing tricks. I can happily be uncertain with Heisenberg. The fool in his heart may well have said: "There is no God" but I haven't - I accept that our type of existence may not be the only model.

But that is a far cry from reading primitive authors who most certainly thought a physical heaven was above the clouds. I see no reason to edit their work and superimpose modern notions. Elsewhere it is claimed that Muhammad, in the 7th century, hit on some modern notions in medicine. There goes a miracle, post 100AD. If we are intent on believing something we must, to support of beliefs, dig for any sort of meaning in texts that are patently clear.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 6 by marco]

Well I'm not intersted in speculating about what the writers knew or were thinking it is in my opinion irrelevant since they were being (miraculously) controled to record realities transmitted to them (miraculously) by an omniposent God. Miraculously making their personal primative knowledge of the ecosystem or anything else miraculously .... irrelevant.

In short a miracle, recorded miraculously by people miraculously controlled to miraculously accuratelly write absolute truth. Any questions?

[Zzyzx]

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Unless we are imposing atheistic bias to the account

You evidently prefer the Theist bias.

In any case, since nobody can offer verifiable proof it wasn't a miracle or that it didnt happen exactly as described,

Nobody can prove that Joe didn't fly by flapping his arms; however, reasoning from what is known of the real world, it is extremely unlikely that his claim is true.

Likewise, reasoning from what is known of the real world, it is extremely unlikely that:
1. Waters parted as claimed
2. A chariot of fire pulled by horses of fire appeared
3. Someone went to heaven by a whirlwind
4. A polluted well was 'healed' with a bowl of salt
5. Bears mauled 42 children

Consider the reaction to a modern person telling that story with no verification and claiming it was a 'miracle'.

[JehovahsWitness]

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Unless we are imposing atheistic bias to the account

You evidently prefer the Theist bias.

You point being? Are you trying to communicate that "Yes you are bias but isnt everyone?" Or is your point that everyone is except you? Please explain the above.

As for your last question I don't try to establish truth through popular reaction but from an examination of available evidence. TRUTH exists entirely independently of whether people believe it or not; the world didnt become a globe when enough people stopped laughing at the idea.

Appeals to popularity is often synonymous with an inability to think outside the box and outside the box is precisely where truth tends to reside.



JW

[Zzyzx]

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Unless we are imposing atheistic bias to the account

You evidently prefer the Theist bias.

You point being?

My point is that you evidently prefer the Theist bias. How much more clearly can that be stated?

Are you trying to communicate that "Yes you are bias but isnt everyone?"

No. I point out that you communicate an obvious Theist bias.

Or is your point that everyone is except you?

I make no mention of myself -- and have never claimed to be free of bias.

Please explain the above.

Further simplification does not seem possible.

As for your last question I don't try to establish truth through popular reaction but from an examination of available evidence. TRUTH exists entirely independently of whether people believe it or not; the world didnt become a globe when enough people stopped laughing at the idea.

I trust that readers, even some with a Theist bias, understand that the claims made for parting waters, chariots and horses of fire, going to heaven in a whirlwind, bears mauling 42 children, are extremely unlikely to be truthful and accurate.

I also trust that some with Theist bias will attempt to defend the tale as though their faith depended on it being true and accurate.

Appeals to popularity is often synonymous with an inability to think outside the box

Appeals to reasoning may be outside the box (or the realm of possibility) for some people.

and outsside the box is precisely where truth tends to reside.

Kindly demonstrate the truth of the Kings tales.