Was deconversion (escape) difficult for you?

[Zzyzx]

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People have indicated varied experiences and difficulties in their path breaking away from organized religion.

My own departure was painless. Although my mother was devoutly Catholic she was well educated and was not authoritarian. Dad was an 'obligatory Catholic' who famously said "The church rules by guilt and fear".

By forth grade I couldn't understand adults claiming, with a straight face, that donkeys and snakes could talk. After a couple episodes like that, public school.

A former wife, however, had the opposite experience. Decades after escaping a fundamentalist polygamous cult (FLDS) she struggled to recover from its indoctrination and to adjust to the real world (with only partial success).

Questions for debate: Is it difficult to leave Christianity?

What are the advantages and disadvantages of apostasy?

[Zzyzx]

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[Replying to post 5 by Thomas123]

WHY is this a matter of concern to you? What is the point?

Any dissonance issues here , Zzyzx?

None on my part.

Are you a member of any other organisations that you fundamentally disagree with?

Not to my knowledge.

Why not just, cancel the credit card?

No need to cancel. I don't use credit cards. I pay cash, don't pay interest, don't want 'credit' or debt. Don't have a 'card' with Catholicism.

Why not formally do it just to see the process?

Not of any interest. My time is better spent elswhere.

I feel dissonance all the time on this!

Condolences. No need to project that onto others.

What if your stance is held against your credibility, from any side?

My credibility in places I value is not threatened.

We are old enough to choose our own paths,, but have you in fact done the same thing as me...faded quietly to the peripheries of Catholicism.

I am not on 'the peripheries of Catholicism'. If the church carries my name on their books, that is simply not a matter of concern to me.

Please don't feel targeted here as I speak from my own personal experiences

I am not hypersensitive

Hypothetically, if your personal details were hacked,Zzyzx, and they were used to enrol you online in a Far Right Extremist Group. You receive your official membership card in the post, ...what would you do?

Chuckle

The dynamics of this phenomena are related to our conversation here, imho
https://theculturetrip.com/europe/spain ... lfighting/

Fighting bulls is not among my abilities. I do, however, often 'fight' baloney.

[Thomas123]

Zzyzx: WHY is this a matter of concern to you? What is the point?


What is the subject of the OP if not this?

Zzyzx Opening Post: Questions for debate: Is it difficult to leave Christianity?

You are not hypersensitive,..you just don't like my line of enquiry.

It's gone!

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to Divine Insight]

This Catholicism is more than that ,Divine Insight, especially when you decide to leave.

More than what? What is is that you think I had suggested?

I explain how my childhood best friend was entangled with the religion not only by the dogmatic demand of the religion itself, but also by his own father's beliefs, opinions, and judgements on him.

So I've already acknowledged that these ties can be quite deep and extend far past the theological institution of Catholicism itself.

That is why I included the link in my first submission. There is a formality with actual forms and process. In some places there might be legal issues regarding , marriage certificates ,etc. They do not annul Babtisms for doctrinal reasons and they generally do not facilitate the process. I have not done as much as I could physically do to conclude the greatest clarity of separation possible within available protocol. Most lapsed Catholics don't, they wander on in a state of limbo, pardon the pun...Go Well!

I agree, and I fully understand. Now you are talking about older people who have become entangled with the institution of Catholicism even more so, via things such as marriage, and having their babies baptized or whatever.

Yes, the deeper you had become involved in Catholicism the more entangled you are going to be.

And the more you continue to care about that entanglement the more it's going to trouble you. As Zzyzx suggests why project your insecurities with leaving Catholicism onto others? Not everyone who leaves Catholicism allows it to continue to haunt them.

And obviously if there are any legal issues having to do with marriage, or adoptions, or that sort of thing, then of course they are going to have to deal with those legal issues. But now we're into law and not religion.

I'm still best friends with my childhood Catholic friend. He has long since become an agnostic "Doubting Thomas". In fact, his name actually is Thomas, and that also serves to haunt him because he keeps imagining that this was no accident and that he was named Thomas precisely because he would become a doubter.

He also was married in the Catholic church. He had two daughters with his wife. They eventually divorced. Actually she divorced him. He's been feeling guilty ever since because he had been taught that to divorce is a sin. He never remarried, and even though he had girlfriends after his divorce he always felt guilty about dating them.

So yes Catholicism left him scared with emotional guilt and pain for the rest of his life.

He has become a very confused "agnostic", and he is indeed agnostic about the Biblical God, not about some abstract philosophical God. He's still not sure whether the God of the Bible is real or not. He sees it as being a horrible God, but he's not convinced that perhaps God just isn't a horrible entity.

So to this day he still believes that some angry jealous God may very well cast him into hell for all the sins he has committed. (i.e. for doubting the religion, for not obeying his own father to just shut up and obey God and not question it, for allowing his wife to divorce him, like as if there was anything he could have done to prevent that.)

He's suffering in guilt all because of Catholic dogma. It's truly sad.

In fact, I've actually met quite a few Catholics that no longer believe in the Biblical God but continue to torture themselves with guilt for having come to that conclusion.

Religions are horrible. They cause people much unwarranted and unnecessary pain.

All for what? For having rejected a clearly false religion that is at its own core immoral?

Yep, religions can indeed be very harmful and destructive to be sure.

I'm well aware that Catholicism is high on the list of such religions. Islam I'm told is even worse in this regard.

That's what these religions from the Middle East set out to do. They were purposefully designed to lay extreme guilt and social pain on anyone who refuses to comply to their religious authority.

It's basically nothing more than ignorant and immoral authoritarians hiding behind the facade of an invisible jealous hateful God.

So yes, any emotion scars you might have from leaving Catholicism were well planned out ahead of time by the authors of that religious dogma. You are suffering precisely as they had intended. Gotta give them credit as con artists. Their psychological scam works very well.

They have even succeeded in turning parents against their own children. That's some powerful brainwashing right there!

[Divine Insight]

Zzyzx: WHY is this a matter of concern to you? What is the point?


What is the subject of the OP if not this?

Zzyzx Opening Post: Questions for debate: Is it difficult to leave Christianity?

You are not hypersensitive,..you just don't like my line of enquiry.

It's gone!

But Thomas, you weren't explaining why it was difficult for you to leave Christianity.

Instead you were making accusations toward Zzyzx that he hasn't been able to get over it. How does that qualify as an answer to his question?

He wasn't asking whether or not you thought it was easy for HIM.

[Thomas123]

[Replying to Divine Insight]

Divine Insight : Instead you were making accusations toward Zzyzx that he hasn't been able to get over it.

.....
Show me where and I owe Zzyzx, an apology, dont show me and you need to withdraw this as error, Please!

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to Divine Insight]

Divine Insight : Instead you were making accusations toward Zzyzx that he hasn't been able to get over it.

.....
Show me where and I owe Zzyzx, an apology, dont show me and you need to withdraw this as error, Please!

The insinuation:

Is it possible Zzyzx, that you are still a Catholic , same as me.

The refusal to accept Zzyzx's answer:

Zzyzx: Doesn't bother me in the least if the church considers me still Catholic. I don't -- and that's what counts
..............
Any dissonance issues here , Zzyzx?

Why not just accept what he already said?

His question was to others. He's asking you how difficult it was for you to leave Christianity. He's not asking you to insinuate that it might have been difficult for him. Or that he hasn't yet gotten over it.

Do you owe him an apology? That's for him to say. If it were me I wouldn't require an apology for the same reason that Jesus gave, "forgive them for they know not what they do".

Your projections of your own concerns onto Z are your problem, not Z's.

I'm just pointing out that instead of answering his question you seem to be challenging his experience.

Is it that difficult for you to understand that it simply may not be a big deal for some other people to leave Christianity?

Why not just explain why you see it as being difficult?

If you look at my first post in this thread, all I did was share my experience. I didn't suggest what it might be like for any other individuals. Especially not any specific individuals. I did suggest that there are obvious social reasons why it may be difficult for some people to leave a religion due to parental or other social pressures.

I can certainly understand why it might be difficult for many people. But that's not going to lead me to challenging those who had no problem leaving the religion.

[Zzyzx]

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Zzyzx Opening Post: Questions for debate: Is it difficult to leave Christianity?

Notice the thread title: "Was deconversion (escape) difficult for you?"

You are not hypersensitive,..you just don't like my line of enquiry.

Correction: I do not like people attempting to project their problem or attitudes onto me.

[Tcg]

[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

Escaping Christianity wasn't difficult for me in the sense that it was unlikely to happen. Once I began to question the Bible openly and honestly, it was inevitable that I would deconvert.

It was difficult in the sense of being painful, at least at times. During the process of my deconversion, I happened to have a business trip during which I traveled to the state where my grandparents were buried. During my off time, I bought flowers and visited each of their graves.

While I had once been fully convinced I'd meet them all again in heaven, I remember standing at the foot of my beloved grandfather's grave and realizating that I'd never see this man again. He was dead and gone from my life forever.

Of course pain like this can lead to growth and renewal. Having come to the realization that one relatively short life is all we get, I came to appreciate it's preciousness. My grandfather is gone forever, but others I love are alive and well. The briefness of this life compels me to enjoy the time we have to share no matter how fleeting it is.


Tcg

[Thomas123]

Tcg:Having come to the realization that one relatively short life is all we get, I came to appreciate it's preciousness. My grandfather is gone forever, but others I love are alive and well. The briefness of this life compels me to enjoy the time we have to share no matter how fleeting it is

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This is very close to my attitude to things.

I can have fond memories, tell stories, and retain artifacts , etc of departed family and friends and I attempt to consider the humanity of history, in this same reflective way. I can look forward without limits to a glorious future for my direct descendants and humanity in general, a place of justice and fairness for all living forms. To retain this feeling of hope has been the challenge of my faith in everything I see and feel.

[Tcg]

Tcg:Having come to the realization that one relatively short life is all we get, I came to appreciate it's preciousness. My grandfather is gone forever, but others I love are alive and well. The briefness of this life compels me to enjoy the time we have to share no matter how fleeting it is

.....
This is very close to my attitude to things.

No it isn't. Our "attitudes to things" couldn't possibly be further apart.


Tcg