What is "Perfect"?

For the love of the pursuit of knowledge

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 14895
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 956 times
Been thanked: 1751 times
Contact:

What is "Perfect"?

Post #1

Post by William »

Why think the eternal, uncaused cause is perfect?

Tanager: My claim is that one should think He is perfect because of the historicity of the resurrection, what Jesus’ resurrection tells us about who Jesus is and what his teachings are, and the reliability of the NT documents in giving us Jesus’ teachings which include that God is perfect.
Matthew 5:48 wrote: “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.”

King James Version (KJV)
Q: How do we philosophically break this down in order to find coherence re this advice?

______________

What is "perfect"?
Where is "heaven"?

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 14895
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 956 times
Been thanked: 1751 times
Contact:

Re: What is "Perfect"?

Post #2

Post by William »


Overcomer
Guru
Posts: 1330
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 8:44 am
Location: Canada
Has thanked: 32 times
Been thanked: 66 times

Re: What is "Perfect"?

Post #3

Post by Overcomer »

I can’t speak to what Tanager meant, but I can speak to the meaning of the verse and the passage.

First of all, it’s important to know that, when the Bible speaks of perfection, it isn’t talking about never doing anything wrong. The word in Greek is “teleios” and it means complete, whole, not lacking anything.

See here:

https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fu ... eleios.htm

The verse in question comes from the Sermon on the Mount. The focus of the sermon is on proper living in the kingdom of God. Just as God’s love for us is perfect (whole, not lacking in any way), the believer’s love toward others should be the same. Biblical love isn’t about having warm and fuzzy feelings. It’s about wanting God’s best for everyone. God wants to give us his best – and he did, in the person of Jesus. We should want God’s best for others, no matter who they are.

So, in this passage, Christ is calling on his followers to be mature in their love toward others. The parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10) shows us who to love (even our enemies) and how to love (doing what is necessary to show God’s love to them).

Bottom line: God first loved us while we were his enemies (Romans 5). We are to love those who stand in opposition to us. We are to lack nothing in our love for others as his love for us lacks nothing. It is impossible to do that on our own. We need the Holy Spirit to empower us, but it takes practice, that’s for sure!

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 14895
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 956 times
Been thanked: 1751 times
Contact:

Re: What is "Perfect"?

Post #4

Post by William »

[Replying to Overcomer in post #3]
Q: How do we philosophically break this down in order to find coherence re this advice?

______________

What is "perfect"?
Where is "heaven"?
I can speak to the meaning of the verse and the passage.
The verse.
Matthew 5:48
“Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.”
The verse in question comes from the Sermon on the Mount. The focus of the sermon is on proper living in the kingdom of God.
Philosophically "heaven" (Kingdom of God as you appear to identify it) re the verse, is therefore speaking of something which is within a personality and is where "proper living" is sourced - as in - something happens within which reflects outwardly and into the external world (earth).
Just as God’s love for us is perfect (whole, not lacking in any way), the believer’s love toward others should be the same.
This would tie in with the idea of the whole law being contained within Loving ones idea of God, (internal) and Loving others (external) as one Loves oneself (internal)...although to include all the componentry, I would add to your example and present it as "Just as God’s love for us is perfect (whole, not lacking in any way), the believer’s love toward their self and others should be the same."
Biblical love isn’t about having warm and fuzzy feelings. It’s about God’s best for everyone.
I would (philosophically) drop that altogether as an irrelevant inclusion, since Perfect Love is all inclusive and "warm and fuzzy feelings" are part of that overall (wanting God’s best for everyone) package.
God wants to give us his best – and he did, in the person of Jesus. We should want God’s best for others, no matter who they are.
This appears to be saying that one should offer Jesus to others as the way in which to show we are wanting the best for them.

However, (philosophically) this could equate simply to preaching/playing church et al (re the practices of Christianity in general) rather than doing, so how is one to offer Jesus to others, except in treating others as Jesus would treat them - thus being types of ambassadors for/as the Christ (anointed).
This circles back to the 2 commandments mentioned and the processes therein.
1: Expressing internally a genuine Love for God.
2: Expressing internally a genuine Love for Self.
3: Expressing externally a genuine Love for Others.

One can even (philosophically) add to this, that "being perfect as God is perfect" requires just the one recognition, that being "if one genuinely Loves God, one will genuinely Love oneself and others."
So, in this passage, Christ is calling on his followers to be mature in their love toward others.
Philosophically the passage would have to include in the package "love for oneself" Christ calls upon the individual personality to Love oneself (as God Loves that same "self" one identifies as.)

The "maturity" would have to do with the process involved as it is not as simple a task to undertake which transforms the individual personality in the blink of an eye, for there are things we don't even like about ourselves, let alone love...and these (internally) require eyeballing and transforming.
However...is this what "perfect love" is re God?

Does God us Love us unconditionally or only after we have tidied up internally?

Philosophically, I think this is a good question to ask ourselves. Are we expected to wait until someone has tidied up their act, before we Love them? Sometimes passages make it appear to be the case and other times not.

Even that we are told to "be perfect as God is perfect" implies work to be done, and if the work is not done, the implications are that God will not Love us.

Philosophically then, we can understand that there is indeed work to be done, but if we also understand that God Loves us before that work is done, such might propel us to become better at Loving God, Ourself and Others...not because in doing so God might then Love us (or reward us et al) but simply because it is the "Christ" thing to do.
Bottom line: God first loved us while we were his enemies (Romans 5). We are to love those who stand in opposition to us. We are to lack nothing in our love for others as his love for us lacks nothing. It is impossible to do that on our own. We need the Holy Spirit to empower us, but it takes practice, that’s for sure!
This is what I was pointing to re the philosophy.
Gods Love for me lacks nothing. It is perfect in every way, meaning that I am not expected to be anything before Gods Love for me can be given.
This means that my ignorance of Gods love for me does not change Gods Love for me, but my knowledge (Gnosis) of Gods Love for me, has a changing effect on my Love of self and my Love of Others.

Thus the Christ replaces/transforms the former "me" (which God loved regardless) with the genuine "me" (Ambassador of the Christ-Spirit) realizing that "The Kingdom of God is Within" Loving God and Self (internal) and the expression of that flows into the external. (Loving Others.)

Therefore "What is perfect"? and "Where is Heaven"? are philosophically explained/broken down/unpacked.

Both are within the individual and can be discovered and initiated (turned "on" from "off").

User avatar
boatsnguitars
Banned
Banned
Posts: 2060
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:09 am
Has thanked: 477 times
Been thanked: 581 times

Re: What is "Perfect"?

Post #5

Post by boatsnguitars »

William wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2023 6:48 pm “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.”
And how is that? And, can you explain that syntax? It sounds like it's saying, "Be perfect in your own why, while God is perfect in his own way."
Not "be perfect like God".

Either way, it certainly doesn't define perfection.
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 14895
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 956 times
Been thanked: 1751 times
Contact:

Re: What is "Perfect"?

Post #6

Post by William »

boatsnguitars wrote: Fri Oct 06, 2023 6:53 am
William wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2023 6:48 pm “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.”
And how is that? And, can you explain that syntax? It sounds like it's saying, "Be perfect in your own why, while God is perfect in his own way."
Not "be perfect like God".

Either way, it certainly doesn't define perfection.
“Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.”

King James Version (KJV)
Q: How do we philosophically break this down in order to find coherence re this advice?

______________

What is "perfect"?
Where is "heaven"?

User avatar
boatsnguitars
Banned
Banned
Posts: 2060
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:09 am
Has thanked: 477 times
Been thanked: 581 times

Re: What is "Perfect"?

Post #7

Post by boatsnguitars »

William wrote: Fri Oct 06, 2023 2:16 pm
boatsnguitars wrote: Fri Oct 06, 2023 6:53 am
William wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2023 6:48 pm “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.”
And how is that? And, can you explain that syntax? It sounds like it's saying, "Be perfect in your own why, while God is perfect in his own way."
Not "be perfect like God".

Either way, it certainly doesn't define perfection.
“Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.”

King James Version (KJV)
Q: How do we philosophically break this down in order to find coherence re this advice?

______________

What is "perfect"?
Where is "heaven"?
Perfect: "Indeed, for a given thing, being perfect is nothing but being all that it can be, and achieving the fullness of its essence, being in act all that it can be in potentiality. So it is an ontological determination, not an axiological one. In other words, something is perfect when its reality corresponds to its concept."
https://www.axiology.org.uk/suspension- ... age-8.html

Heaven: "Rarely, if ever, are Christian theologians very specific about what heaven will supposedly be like, and there are no doubt good reasons for this. For most of them would deny that the primary sources of the Christian faith, such as the Bible, provide much information on this particular matter. But three issues have typically arisen in the relevant philosophical literature: first, because so many of the recent Christian philosophers have focused upon free will theodicies of hell, it is hardly surprising that the issue of freedom in heaven should likewise have arisen; a second issue is whether the misery of loved ones in hell would undermine the blessedness of those in heaven; and a third issue is whether immortality of any kind would ultimately lead to tedium, boredom, and an insipid life."

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/heaven-hell/


So, God could be a bigoted slug with no Free Will, loving the pain of people in Hell, and bored to the point of pain - and be perfect.

So, be like that....
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 14895
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 956 times
Been thanked: 1751 times
Contact:

Re: What is "Perfect"?

Post #8

Post by William »

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #7]
So, God could be a bigoted slug with no Free Will, loving the pain of people in Hell, and bored to the point of pain - and be perfect.

So, be like that....
Ah - but the problem therein is the word "could"...

What the paper appears to be saying is that someone "perfect" is someone who can be no better than they are.

User avatar
boatsnguitars
Banned
Banned
Posts: 2060
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:09 am
Has thanked: 477 times
Been thanked: 581 times

Re: What is "Perfect"?

Post #9

Post by boatsnguitars »

William wrote: Thu Oct 12, 2023 2:55 pm [Replying to boatsnguitars in post #7]
So, God could be a bigoted slug with no Free Will, loving the pain of people in Hell, and bored to the point of pain - and be perfect.

So, be like that....
Ah - but the problem therein is the word "could"...

What the paper appears to be saying is that someone "perfect" is someone who can be no better than they are.
No better than they are capable of being, not are. But, yes, basically.

Without a better definition, I think that's a pretty good one. Luckily, I don't think we need to worry about it much. However, if you are going to perfect something - the assumption is there is an end state that makes it as good as it can be - so it's useful to apply to something.

Like it's good to think of the perfect knee surgery. That is, perfecting something is a thing - it must mean something. But it seems to solely be related to what it could be, not perfect in every way, even in ways it can't be.

So, it's absurd to say we should be perfect like a God - we aren't capable of being like a perfect God.
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 14895
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 956 times
Been thanked: 1751 times
Contact:

Re: What is "Perfect"?

Post #10

Post by William »

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #9]
No better than they are capable of being, not are.
Some maybe are already.
So, it's absurd to say we should be perfect like a God - we aren't capable of being like a perfect God.
Are you saying then that the Jesus character is absurd?

Post Reply