onewithhim wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2023 4:25 pm
Christ did not die and rise again before the world began. It was some thousands of years later that he died and rose again. You misunderstand what "before the world began" means. The "world" is the same world that is referred to at I John 2:15-17. It is the world of fallen mankind. This world did not start until Adam and Eve turned their backs on Jehovah and insisted on their own way. You'll have to reconsider your understanding of this.
I will be more than glad to reconsider my understanding of this, but you have to provide me with sound scriptural evidence by comparing scripture with scripture so I can have something to examine. So, let me start by saying that you're right, Christ did indeed die thousands of years (just over 11 thousand years) after the world began. We can clearly read about that in any of the gospels. So, then what's the problem? Who in their right mind would dare say that Jesus died and then rose again to make payment for sins from the foundation of the world, rathern than at the cross? This makes no sense only if one reads the Bible like a newspaper and with the assumtion that God meant to lay all things out as plainly as possible for all to understand. But God didn't write the Bible that way, as a matter of fact, he wrote it the opposite way. The Bible tells us that the Bible is a spiritual book, yet eveyone reads it like a historical textbook. The Bible tells us that Christ spoke all things in parables and
did not speak without a parable. Yet people refuse to acknowledge that scripture (Mt 13:34 & Mk 4:34) and insist that he only spoke in parables
sometimes. The Bible teaches us that the purpose of parables was to conceal truth from the unsaved (Mt 13:10-16). The Bible also tells us that it is God's glory to conceal a WORD and the honor of kings (the true believers) is to search out WORDS (Prov 25:2). The Bible teaches us that God designed his word (the gospel) to be understood properly by comparing line upon line and precept upon precept, here a little and there a little (meaning all throughout the scriptures)(Isa 28:9-13). And the Bible teaches us that the record of scripture agrees as one whole truth (1 Jn 5:7-8).
Now, having this understanding is what leads me to not only read the Bible, as most people do, but also to examine the Bible for discrepencies which we dismiss by only reading the Bible like a historical textbook. For example, if we hold to Christ dying
and paying for sins at the time of the cross in 33 AD, then a whole load of scriptures will contradict that understanding. In other words, ther's no question he historically physically dies in 33 Ad on an actual cross and then rose again, but that was only a demonstration of what had already taken place before the world began. How can this be? Well , here are just a few contradictions you face if you hold to payment for sins at the cross.
1. How could Christ be called the Son of God
before his death and resurrection since the raising from the dead was the means by which he was declared to be called the Son of God?
Romans 1:4 (KJV 1900)
And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, BY (meaning THROUGH) the resurrection from the dead:
2. Christ (God) could never violate any of his own laws, like the law which states that without the shedding of blood (meaning death) there can be no forgiveness of sins (Heb 9:22). So, how could Christ forgive sins before shedding his blood on the cross? Furthermore, we know that animal sacrifices NEVER did anything to take away sins (Heb 10:4). So, how were people forgiven of their sins and made perfect (righteous) in the Old Testament?
3. The Bible says that Christ is the first begotten from the dead (Rev 1:5 & Col 1:18). This makes Christ have the preeminance in all things like death and resurrecting from the dead. Yet, if you count up how many people died and were raised to life
before Christ, Christ was the 7th to die and rise again.
4. The Psalms tell us that Christ's soul was in hell (the grave/death) but it wasn't left there. This was in regards to the punishment of payment for sins. Yet when Christ died on the cross, we never read that his soul went to hell. instead, we read the opposite, his soul went to paradise along with the thief the day he died. Can you show me from the Bible which New Testament scripture teaches that Christ's
soul was in hell (meaning dead)?
There are plenty more contradictions one faces if they hold to Christ making payment for sins at the cross. But none of these are any problem (as a matter of fact, everything harmonizes perfectly) if we can see that payment was actually made from the foundation of the world, meaning, before the world began. This means that Christ died twice (which would be another great discussion from the scriptures). Once to pay for sins from the foundation of the world, and once (in 33 AD) to demonstrate what had already been completed.
Lastly, your definition of "world" is only partly correct. It is
not only the world of fallen mankind, but this same Greek word is also used to describe the the earth itself.
John 1:10 (KJV 1900)
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
John 21:25 (KJV 1900)
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
Romans 1:20 (KJV 1900)
For the invisible things of him from the creationof the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
So, that means that we have to let the Bible guide us into understanding what "before the world began" actually means. You say that, "
This world did not start until Adam and Eve turned their backs on Jehovah and insisted on their own way".
Yet, since the Bible clearly allows for this word "world" to mean either the world itself or the world of the unsaved, I don't believe you can show me any scriptures to prove that the fall of man is when the world actually started. But we do have a passage that tells us when God began keepinf track of time, it's in Genesis 1:1. "In the beginning...". This means "in the beginning of time". This is why God began counting evenings and mornings and one day and two days and so forth. This is
time is it not? The truth of the Bible is that God began counting time from the very beginning of his creation. So, "before the world began" means before the beginning, or before Genesis 1:1. In other words, it was in eternity past, that sin was accounted for and paid for by Christ (who is
eternal God). This is why we read a very relevant piece of scripture here:
Proverbs 8:23 (KJV 1900)
I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning,
Or ever the earth was.
The words "set up" are the Hebrew word that's translated as "poured out" like drink offerings are poured out. And Christ was poured out (made an offering) from everlasting, from the beginning, not the beginning of the world, because the next line tells us that the world was not yet, but Christ was the beginning of the creation of God (Rev 3:14) which also takes us to eternity past.
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