How can Christianity convince Jews to see the light?

[Confused]

Historically, Jews were oppressed/persecuted/exterminated before the coming of Jesus and they continued to be oppressed/persecuted/exterminated after the death of Jesus. They continue this same pattern even today.
Now, Christianity has flourished, has become the dominant religion. Jesus, as the Christ, has brought unity to the masses. And still Jews continue to reject Him as the Messiah.

What can Christians offer Jews that would make them see the light? Make them understand, in the context that Jews would understand within their own ideology, that Jesus is the way, the only way?

[cnorman18]

Your point is one man's opinion based on limited experiences.

I never said it was anything else. If you can post information proving that the majority of "messianic Jews" are in fact ethnically or originally Jewish, let's see it. I've looked around at the messianic websites, and they don't seem to want to talk about it. My limited information, which I admit is based only on my own experience, seems to be the only information on the table.

I find that most of the ones I have come across were Christians or extremely secular.

The Jewish people who I know who converted tended to go to a more traditional Christianity, mind you, with a more Jewish mindset, but don't go for the Jewish
holidays.

Same here. Most Jews who convert just become straight-up Christians and don't pretend to remain Jews; in fact, that's one of the clues that actual Jews who become "messianic" don't know much about Judaism.

Historically, most Jews who convert to Christianity don't do it out of religious conviction, anyway; that's just a fact. In the Middle Ages, they did it to escape the brutal persecution at the hands of Christians; today, they do it for social and professional reasons. The Jew who converts so he can join the best country club, or make VP of his company, is an old and bitter Jewish joke. It's old because it's been common for centuries, and it's bitter because there are few enough of our people already.

Many Jews regard efforts to make our people become Christians as merely trying to finish the job that Hitler started by another method. The object is still to eradicate Judaism from the face of the Earth and arrange it so there are no Jews.

[Easyrider]

Your point is one man's opinion based on limited experiences.

I never said it was anything else. If you can post information proving that the majority of "messianic Jews" are in fact ethnically or originally Jewish, let's see it. I've looked around at the messianic websites, and they don't seem to want to talk about it. My limited information, which I admit is based only on my own experience, seems to be the only information on the table.

I personally have known 2, but my circle of friends are somewhat limited from the Jewish perspective. But if you'd like a list of former Jews who received Jesus as their Lord you can start with these:

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/topics/answers/lifestories

Okay. I count eight major points to which you did not reply. Do you seriously claim that you did?

1. "...for every quotation these "experts" can find that "proves" that Jesus was the Messiah by implication, inferral or convoluted interpretation, there are literally hundreds that say explicitly, clearly and specifically and often by name that he was not.... Now why do you suppose this "researcher" ignored and omitted those many, many, many quotations? It sure wasn't because he was really interested in what the sages and rabbis really had to say about Jesus, or because he wanted to find out what Jewish traditions about the Messiah really were."

I don't argue against that. Now, can you count up for me all the tens of thousands of former Jews who persecuted their own prophets and others when God revealed his truths through them, and listened to false teachers instead?

2. (Edited for order only) "In every religion that relies on the Bible, it is not the plain Biblical text that is authoritative; it is the tradition of interpretation and teaching that surrounds and explains it.... No one reads the Bible literally and uses it as a guide for belief and practice with no intervening analysis or cognitive judgment being applied.

Strong claim. Can you support and document that? Did you take a survey? Did you ask the Baptists and Assemblies of God how they view it? And what does "literally" mean? That there are no allegories, metaphors, or other poetic devices that were intended to be there in the first place?

Jews do not argue with the Christian tradition of interpretation; for all we know, God may intend you to believe just as you do. [But] We don't think that you have the right to tell us that your human interpretation of the Bible has any more credibility or authority than our own.

Not only do we have a right to profess our Biblical views about Christ to you and others, but we are commanded to by God (Matthew 28:18-19, etc.). Shall we listen to God or the pundits of political correctness?

So do not tell me that Christians are guided by what the Bible "actually teaches" while Jews ignore the Bible and merely impose their own ideas. Both of those propositions are outright falsehoods."

I'm telling you that Christ is the resurrected Lord and Jewish Messiah, and that's what Christ and the Bible teaches. If you do not want to hear about that then you're in the wrong forum, and the wrong country (though I hope you stick around).

3. "You. have not managed to show me a single case where Messiah is described to be the literal son of God, as Hercules was said to be the son of Zeus; and that literal claim is rather clearly found in the NT.

Forget Hercules. But as for Jesus being the literal son of God, the scriptures abound in the NT. You can start with the information in these links:

http://www.abrahamic-faith.com/Jesus-son-of-God.html

http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-Son-of-God.html

Jesus had no earthly father, and his actual, literal father is claimed to be God. Where is that idea to be found in Jewish tradition or literature?"

There's a number of them. Here's for starters:

THE HEBREW SCRIPTURES

I will declare the decree: The LORD has said to Me, "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You. Ask of Me, and I will give You the nations for Your inheritance, and the ends of the earth for Your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel."

Now therefore, be wise, O kings; be instructed, you judges of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son*, lest He be angry, and you perish in the way, when His wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him. (Psalm 2:7-12)

THE RABBINIC WRITINGS

Our rabbis have taught that this concerns the Messiah-King... (Rabbi Shlomo Yitzhaki)

If it (Psalm 2) be interpreted of the Messiah, the matter is clear. (Aben Ezra)

Our Rabbis taught, The Holy One, blessed be He, will say to the Messiah, the son of David (May he reveal himself speedily in our days!), "Ask of me anything, and I will give it to thee", as it is said, I will tell of the decree etc. this day have I begotten thee, ask of me and I will give the nations for thy inheritance. (Babylonian Talmud, Sukkah 52a) http://www.shalom.org.uk/Messiah/SonGod.htm

Then there's the following: http://www.studytoanswer.net/judaism/jahtsidqenu.html

5. "In Jewish tradition, Messiah will be recognized by the institution of the Messianic Age, an age of universal peace and justice and reverence for God. If the Bible "actually teaches" anything about the Messiah, it is that."

Not so fast. Daniel 9:25-27 has been considered Messianic by numerous rabbis.

It is well established in history that ancient Jews believed Daniel's prophecy pinpointed the time of the Messiah's coming. For instance, in the Babylonian Talmud, complied between 200 - 500 A.D., Rabbi Judah (the main compiler of the Talmud), said concerning Daniel's prophecy:

"These times were over long ago."
(Babylonian Talmud Sanhedrin 98b and 97a)

In the 12th Century A.D., Rabbi Moses Ben Maimon (Maimonides), one of the most respected rabbis in history, and a man who rejected Jesus as the Messiah, said:

"Daniel has elucidated to us the knowledge of the end times.
However, since they are secret, the wise (rabbis) have barred
the calculations of the days of Messiah's coming so that the
untutored populace will not be led astray when they see that
end times have already come but there is no sign of the Messiah."

In addition, Rabbi Moses Abraham Levi said regarding the time of the Messiah's coming:

"I have examined and searched all the Holy Scriptures and have
not found the time for the coming of Messiah clearly fixed, except
in the words of Gabriel to the prophet Daniel, which are written
in the 9th chapter of the prophecy of Daniel."

In the Targum of the Prophets, in the Tractate Megillah 3a, the Rabbi Jonathan ben Uzziel noted, concerning Daniel's prophecy:

"The date of the Messiah was foretold in it."

Rabbi Elias, who lived 200 years before Jesus, wrote:

"The world endures 6000 years; Two thousand before the law
(before Moses), two thousand with the law and two thousand
with the Messiah." (Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 96b - 99a)

Grotius quotes Rabbi Nehumias, (who lived in the generation preceding the birth of Christ) as saying, “Whoever the Messiah is, he must appear within the next fifty years.”

It's (Daniel 9) actually one of the few places in the Tanakh that uses the specific word for Messiah - "moshiach." And it says that AFTER the moshiach comes and is "cut off" that war will continue until the end. How then can there be everlasting peace when the Messiah is cut off and war abounds? Either there has to be two Messiahs or one who returns (Jesus).

6. "He is also to be a literal King, sitting on the throne of David and literally reigning over Israel. That is also extremely clear and consistent in both the Biblical text and in Jewish tradition...."

No argument there. The NT says the same thing about the Messiah.

7. "And all your explanations and excuses for why neither of these conditions were fulfilled by Jesus are human interpretations, to which you give more authority than the plain words of the Bible."

Nope. I've backed them up with scripture and, in some cases, with rabbinic commentary.

8. "We believe we ought to focus on the beliefs we share, which are many, and focus our joint efforts on making this world a better place."

So do we, but at what cost to people's souls in the hereafter?

Well, I've had a number of posters say they're (rabbinic quotations) forgeries, etc., or a blatant lie.

Are they? Are you sure? Why?

Pick one out and we can discuss.

It would be helpful to have the full database on file, and let the chips fall where they may.

Why on Earth would you make Jews responsible for a resource that falsifies the overwhelming bulk of the(ir) own tradition?

That's just the point. If their current traditions don't include legitimate and contrary materials that show another point of view, then how solid are their traditions? Isaiah 29:13 says:

"The Lord says: "These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is made up only of rules (teachings / traditions) taught by men."

Can I suggest a Christian website where the views of all the splinter groups and nutcases that deny the divinity or the existence of Jesus would be gathered for reference? (I WOULDN'T, just so you won't address that as a point; but that's the equivalent.)

People do that all the time. We answer those fallacies as well.

Uh huh. And anti-Christian proponents and websites (Jews for Judaism) that malign Christianity, seek to illegitimize the Christian understanding of our scriptures, and make specious arguments, often distorting NT events, passages, and doctrines, are less offensive to us and our faith?

Show me a single quote from a recognized Jewish leader from any mainstream Jewish organization that says that Christianity is a false religion or that God condemns Christians for their beliefs. Just one.

What? You're going to tell me there's pro-Judaism leaders who think Christianity and Jesus as the Jewish Messiah is an accurate religion? Of course they teach against it, and influential Jews like Rabbi Singer argue against it all the time, basically arguing it's built on a house of cards.

And we shall agree to disagree, I guess..

[cnorman18]

Your point is one man's opinion based on limited experiences.

I never said it was anything else. If you can post information proving that the majority of "messianic Jews" are in fact ethnically or originally Jewish, let's see it. I've looked around at the messianic websites, and they don't seem to want to talk about it. My limited information, which I admit is based only on my own experience, seems to be the only information on the table.

I personally have known 2, but my circle of friends are somewhat limited from the Jewish perspective. But if you'd like a list of former Jews who received Jesus as their Lord you can start with these:

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/topics/answers/lifestories

"I knew a man once..."

The question is not whether there are any Jews who have become "messianic"; obviously there are a few. The question is whether a substantial majority of those who call themselves "messianic Jews" were ever Jews at all.

The estimated number of "messianic Jews" in the world is 350,000; therefore, if there are less than 175,000 names on your list, you have proved nothing, and my personal observations remain the only information on the table. As I said, the "messianic" organizations themselves seem reluctant to talk about it. That seems significant all by itself.

Your response was off point and a non sequitur.

Okay. I count eight major points to which you did not reply. Do you seriously claim that you did?

1. "...for every quotation these "experts" can find that "proves" that Jesus was the Messiah by implication, inferral or convoluted interpretation, there are literally hundreds that say explicitly, clearly and specifically and often by name that he was not.... Now why do you suppose this "researcher" ignored and omitted those many, many, many quotations? It sure wasn't because he was really interested in what the sages and rabbis really had to say about Jesus, or because he wanted to find out what Jewish traditions about the Messiah really were."

I don't argue against that. Now, can you count up for me all the tens of thousands of former Jews who persecuted their own prophets and others when God revealed his truths through them, and listened to false teachers instead?

Another non sequitur, and a blatant and vicious one. We were discussing your claim that Jewish tradition affirms that Jesus was the Messiah. You have dropped that entirely. I see.

If you want to compare Jewish and Christian hands to see whose are bloodier, bring it on.

2. (Edited for order only) "In every religion that relies on the Bible, it is not the plain Biblical text that is authoritative; it is the tradition of interpretation and teaching that surrounds and explains it.... No one reads the Bible literally and uses it as a guide for belief and practice with no intervening analysis or cognitive judgment being applied.

Strong claim. Can you support and document that? Did you take a survey? Did you ask the Baptists and Assemblies of God how they view it? And what does "literally" mean? That there are no allegories, metaphors, or other poetic devices that were intended to be there in the first place?

It's not a claim, it's a fact. Facts do not require surveys. No matter how you try to spin it, the Bible must be interpreted. I gave you a number of examples of that, and you missed the point entirely and merely offered your interpretation as the correct one, not realizing that you were proving my point.

And you have done it again here by admitting that the Bible contains "allegories, metaphors, [and] other poetic devices." Those things require interpretation or else they have no meaning at all, and there is rarely only one way to interpret a given passage.

Just for laughs, let me demonstrate that principle from your own NT; What did Jesus mean when he said, "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's"? Go ahead, give us the only possible correct interpretation--oops; I mean: tell us what the Bible plainly says there.

Jews do not argue with the Christian tradition of interpretation; for all we know, God may intend you to believe just as you do. [But] We don't think that you have the right to tell us that your human interpretation of the Bible has any more credibility or authority than our own.

Not only do we have a right to profess our Biblical views about Christ to you and others, but we are commanded to by God (Matthew 28:18-19, etc.). Shall we listen to God or the pundits of political correctness?

Non sequitur again. No one said you didn't have the right to profess your views; in fact, I explicitly said that you did. What I said was that you had no right to pronounce your views to be the only correct ones (speaking of correctness) and pronounce Jewish views to be wrong, unBiblical, against God and of no account.

So do not tell me that Christians are guided by what the Bible "actually teaches" while Jews ignore the Bible and merely impose their own ideas. Both of those propositions are outright falsehoods."

I'm telling you that Christ is the resurrected Lord and Jewish Messiah, and that's what Christ and the Bible teaches. If you do not want to hear about that then you're in the wrong forum, and the wrong country (though I hope you stick around).

And yet another unresponsive non sequitur.

Do I have the right, as a Jew, to tell you what Christianity ought to be? No? Then why do you as a Christian have the right to tell Jews what Judaism ought to be?

Professing and proclaiming one's own religion does not require the falsification and defamation of another's, as in claiming that Jews ignore what the Bible teaches. It would be proper and unobjectionable to say that we disagree, but you have gone far beyond that in claiming that we willfully and with malice deliberately twist the meaning of the Bible for our own purposes. That implies that we really know what it means, but intentionally go against it; you have all but said as much on this very thread. That crosses the line from saying that you are right and we are wrong, into saying we are lying and rebelling against God. And that is neither acceptable nor defensible.

3. "You. have not managed to show me a single case where Messiah is described to be the literal son of God, as Hercules was said to be the son of Zeus; and that literal claim is rather clearly found in the NT.

Forget Hercules. But as for Jesus being the literal son of God, the scriptures abound in the NT. You can start with the information in these links:

http://www.abrahamic-faith.com/Jesus-son-of-God.html

http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-Son-of-God.html

What do I care what the NT says? The question is where that is to be found in Jewish tradition.

Jesus had no earthly father, and his actual, literal father is claimed to be God. Where is that idea to be found in Jewish tradition or literature?"

There's a number of them. Here's for starters:

THE HEBREW SCRIPTURES

I will declare the decree: The LORD has said to Me, "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You. Ask of Me, and I will give You the nations for Your inheritance, and the ends of the earth for Your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel."

Now therefore, be wise, O kings; be instructed, you judges of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son*, lest He be angry, and you perish in the way, when His wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him. (Psalm 2:7-12)

THE RABBINIC WRITINGS

Our rabbis have taught that this concerns the Messiah-King... (Rabbi Shlomo Yitzhaki)

If it (Psalm 2) be interpreted of the Messiah, the matter is clear. (Aben Ezra)

Our Rabbis taught, The Holy One, blessed be He, will say to the Messiah, the son of David (May he reveal himself speedily in our days!), "Ask of me anything, and I will give it to thee", as it is said, I will tell of the decree etc. this day have I begotten thee, ask of me and I will give the nations for thy inheritance. (Babylonian Talmud, Sukkah 52a) http://www.shalom.org.uk/Messiah/SonGod.htm

Then there's the following: http://www.studytoanswer.net/judaism/jahtsidqenu.html

It is rather common in the Bible that adoption language is used when referring to the relationship between God and the King. Another example, which may be connected to this Psalm (some of the language is parallel), is found in II Samuel 7: "I will raise up your offspring after you, one of your own issue, and I will establisn his kingship. He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish his royal throne forever. I will be a father to him, and he shall be a son to Me." (Emphasis added)

This unequivocally refers to Solomon, who did indeed build the first Temple and who was David's "own issue". The passage rather clearly indicates that the father/son image was not literal.

Now, it is clear that we disagree here. That's not the point.

Here is the question you must answer; Do I sincerely believe what I'm saying, or do I really know that all such passages are about Jesus and am just lying about it?

5. "In Jewish tradition, Messiah will be recognized by the institution of the Messianic Age, an age of universal peace and justice and reverence for God. If the Bible "actually teaches" anything about the Messiah, it is that."

Not so fast. Daniel 9:25-27 has been considered Messianic by numerous rabbis.

It is well established in history that ancient Jews believed Daniel's prophecy pinpointed the time of the Messiah's coming. For instance, in the Babylonian Talmud, complied between 200 - 500 A.D., Rabbi Judah (the main compiler of the Talmud), said concerning Daniel's prophecy:

"These times were over long ago."
(Babylonian Talmud Sanhedrin 98b and 97a)

In the 12th Century A.D., Rabbi Moses Ben Maimon (Maimonides), one of the most respected rabbis in history, and a man who rejected Jesus as the Messiah, said:

"Daniel has elucidated to us the knowledge of the end times.
However, since they are secret, the wise (rabbis) have barred
the calculations of the days of Messiah's coming so that the
untutored populace will not be led astray when they see that
end times have already come but there is no sign of the Messiah."

In addition, Rabbi Moses Abraham Levi said regarding the time of the Messiah's coming:

"I have examined and searched all the Holy Scriptures and have
not found the time for the coming of Messiah clearly fixed, except
in the words of Gabriel to the prophet Daniel, which are written
in the 9th chapter of the prophecy of Daniel."

In the Targum of the Prophets, in the Tractate Megillah 3a, the Rabbi Jonathan ben Uzziel noted, concerning Daniel's prophecy:

"The date of the Messiah was foretold in it."

Rabbi Elias, who lived 200 years before Jesus, wrote:

"The world endures 6000 years; Two thousand before the law
(before Moses), two thousand with the law and two thousand
with the Messiah." (Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 96b - 99a)

Grotius quotes Rabbi Nehumias, (who lived in the generation preceding the birth of Christ) as saying, “Whoever the Messiah is, he must appear within the next fifty years.”

It's (Daniel 9) actually one of the few places in the Tanakh that uses the specific word for Messiah - "moshiach." And it says that AFTER the moshiach comes and is "cut off" that war will continue until the end. How then can there be everlasting peace when the Messiah is cut off and war abounds? Either there has to be two Messiahs or one who returns (Jesus).

More isolated quotes that require lots of inference, interpretation, and massaging before they come close to proving your point. Why is it that the Jewish view of these things is expressed so many more times, and is said straight out and in so many words, while the views you espouse require a hunt with a magnifying glass followed by intellectual backflips?

Like I said; there is such an enormous volume of Jewish literature, it would be surprising not to see these things. The fact is: you are depending on a minority view about one single passage in one of the minor prophets here, and are ignoring the overwhelming majority of rabbinic opinion and the rest of the Bible.

Let me ask you this; see you getting this information directly from Jewish sources, as in reading the Talmud yourself? Or are you getting it through Christian sources that are specifically intended and established to argue for Jesus? I think we both know the answer to that.

Is it legitimate to call it "doing research" on anything when one reads only material from its opponents?

This is a line of argument you really need to abandon. You have already said you "do not argue against" the fact that the overwhelming majority of rabbinic opinion explicitly says that Jesus was not the Messiah, so why do you keep bringing it up?

Don't preach to me about what the Jewish tradition teaches when you have no idea what it actually is.

6. "He is also to be a literal King, sitting on the throne of David and literally reigning over Israel. That is also extremely clear and consistent in both the Biblical text and in Jewish tradition...."

No argument there. The NT says the same thing about the Messiah.

When was Jesus crowned King of Israel by the High Priest and take up residence in the palace of Herod? What were his royal edicts? Who was his heir?

The Kingship of the Messiah was not to be symbolic or spiritual, but actual and literal. Spare me your quotes from convert-the-Jews websites. If you want a few dozen quotations from the OT that prove this, just ask. You know they're there as well as I do.

7. "And all your explanations and excuses for why neither of these conditions were fulfilled by Jesus are human interpretations, to which you give more authority than the plain words of the Bible."

Nope. I've backed them up with scripture and, in some cases, with rabbinic commentary.

Interpretation backed up by other interpretations remains interpretation.

8. "We believe we ought to focus on the beliefs we share, which are many, and focus our joint efforts on making this world a better place."

So do we, but at what cost to people's souls in the hereafter?

Well, so much for that olive branch.

Well, I've had a number of posters say they're (rabbinic quotations) forgeries, etc., or a blatant lie.

Are they? Are you sure? Why?

Yes. Goat's one of them. I think because they're biased against anything that remotely resembles Christ.

I meant, are you sure they're not forgeries and fabrications? That sort of thing is rather common where the Talmud is concerned.

It would be helpful to have the full database on file, and let the chips fall where they may.

Why on Earth would you make Jews responsible for a resource that falsifies the overwhelming bulk of the(ir) own tradition?

That's just the point. If their current traditions don't include legitimate and contrary materials that show another point of view, then how solid are their traditions? Isaiah 29:13 says:

"The Lord says: "These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is made up only of rules (teachings / traditions) taught by men."

See below.

Can I suggest a Christian website where the views of all the splinter groups and nutcases that deny the divinity or the existence of Jesus would be gathered for reference? (I WOULDN'T, just so you won't address that as a point; but that's the equivalent.)

People do that all the time. We answer those fallacies as well.

Do you realize you just have the same answer that I did? "We don't have to do that, because other people do."

Why don't you have such a site? "That's just the point. If [your] current traditions don't include legitimate and contrary materials that show another point of view, then how solid are [your] traditions?"

Uh huh. And anti-Christian proponents and websites (Jews for Judaism) that malign Christianity, seek to illegitimize the Christian understanding of our scriptures, and make specious arguments, often distorting NT events, passages, and doctrines, are less offensive to us and our faith?

Show me a single quote from a recognized Jewish leader from any mainstream Jewish organization that says that Christianity is a false religion or that God condemns Christians for their beliefs. Just one.

What? You're going to tell me there's pro-Judaism leaders who think Christianity and Jesus as the Jewish Messiah is an accurate religion? Of course they teach against it, and influential Jews like Rabbi Singer argue against it all the time, basically arguing it's built on a house of cards.

Like I said; saying that Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah is not the same thing as saying that "Christianity is a false religion or that God condemns Christians for their beliefs." I gather you can't find any such quotes.

And we shall agree to disagree, I guess..

That's fine with me--as long as you explicitly withdraw your repeated implications that Jews deliberately and knowingly falsify the Bible and defy God by a disingenuous and willfully dishonest misinterpretation of Scripture. Disagreement is one thing; slander is another.

[Easyrider]

Cnorman - Like I said, I don't have all the time in the world to play 20 questions. I've presented my views and evidences and stand by them. If you want to pose 1 question or argument per day I'll be glad to answer it. Pick out your best one for today and I'll be back later today or tomorrow. Then we'll do it again.

I will respond to one right now, and that's the general assessment that Jews in general do not believe in Jesus. Apparently that means the majority must be right?

I'll tell you why they don't. Judaism blew it when they bought into the idea that the Messiah would initially bring in world peace. Rather, the scriptures say he would suffer and die for the sins of the people, and then be cut off from the land of the living, and thereafter wars would continue until the end. (Isaiah 53; Daniel 9, etc.).

It was also foretold, in scripture, that the Messiah would be rejected by his own people. After all, they often rejected their own prophets, and even killed number of them, didn't they? So why should we believe the current crop of rabbis and their traditions are more in tune with God's ways than their forefathers?

Isaiah 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Israel 53 is not Israel, it's the Messiah.

And in the future, they will recognize the errors of their ways:

Zechariah 12:10: And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

[cnorman18]

Cnorman - Like I said, I don't have all the time in the world to play 20 questions. I've presented my views and evidences and stand by them. If you want to pose 1 question or argument per day I'll be glad to answer it. Pick out your best one for today and I'll be back later today or tomorrow. Then we'll do it again.

I will respond to one right now, and that's the general assessment that Jews in general do not believe in Jesus. Apparently that means the majority must be right?

I'll tell you why they don't. Judaism blew it when they bought into the idea that the Messiah would initially bring in world peace. Rather, the scriptures say he would suffer and die for the sins of the people, and then be cut off from the land of the living, and thereafter wars would continue until the end. (Isaiah 53; Daniel 9, etc.).

It was also foretold, in scripture, that the Messiah would be rejected by his own people. After all, they often rejected their own prophets, and even killed number of them, didn't they? So why should we believe the current crop of rabbis and their traditions are more in tune with God's ways than their forefathers?

Isaiah 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Israel 53 is not Israel, it's the Messiah.

And in the future, they will recognize the errors of their ways:

Zechariah 12:10: And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

I don't have any problem with any of that being your belief, and I don't find it defamatory or objectionable in any way.

It's been said as a sort of joke for many years that on That Day, the Jews will say, "You're finally here!" and the Christians will say, "You're back!' And then we'll put it all behind us and be one again. That seems like a happy way to think about it to me.

Even when I was a Christian, I believed that the Jews were prevented from accepting Jesus for a reason, and that that reason was so Gentiles could become part of the community of the One God. If the Jews had accepted Jesus, then Christianity would simply have been Judaism, and few Gentiles would have been interested. The Book says we will always be a small people. That's how I understood Romans 11 (or 12--I forget).

I have a different perspective now, of course; but only slightly. It is still my belief that God sent Jesus, and perhaps even more importantly, Paul, so that Gentiles could come to know the real God. If it were not for Jesus, my own people, the Celts, might still be painting themselves blue and worshiping trees.

I never thought that Jews were condemned to Hell if they didn't become Christians. My Bible says that the covenant with Abraham was for all time; I don't see anything there about an expiration date, and if that covenant--and the one at Sinai--are no longer in effect, then God lied to us.

Yes, it says if we misbehaved' we would be uprooted from our land and scattered among the nations and would suffer; and so we were, and so we have. But it also says that He would never completely abandon us, and that He would gather us again and being is home; and so He is. I can't believe that sending all the Jews of the Exile to Hell at their deaths for being faithful to Him is part of that bargain.

If we were prevented from accepting Jesus, as Paul says, is it right to send us to Hell? And again--if those Christians who tried to convert us for centuries did so by way of exile, torture and mass murder, who should bear the guilt for our not accepting Christianity?

All that is food for thought, but here is your one question for the day:

Can you accept that we Jews really do believe in our own interpretation of Scripture, or do you believe that we willfully reject Jesus while secretly knowing that he really was the Messiah?

Before you answer, you ought to know this; Jews do not think about Jesus, by and large, at all. He is as irrelevant to our religion as Julius Caesar, and his name comes up in our study groups and services and social gatherings just about as often. You may think that unwise or improper or whatever, but it's the truth. We have no motivation to falsify out beliefs about Jesus. The subject just doesn't come up, and we don't much care what Christians make of that. He just doesn't matter to us.

Now; am I lying?

If not, will you stop implying that we are willful rebels against God who knowingly cover up and hide from the truth?

If you can do that, then we're OK. If not, we're not.

[Easyrider]

here is your one question for the day:

Can you accept that we Jews really do believe in our own interpretation of Scripture, or do you believe that we willfully reject Jesus while secretly knowing that he really was the Messiah?

I believe you folks believe in your own interpretations of scripture.

I have family in for the holidays, so gotta run. Happy Hanukkah!

[cnorman18]

here is your one question for the day:

Can you accept that we Jews really do believe in our own interpretation of Scripture, or do you believe that we willfully reject Jesus while secretly knowing that he really was the Messiah?

I believe you folks believe in your own interpretations of scripture.

I have family in for the holidays, so gotta run. Happy Hanukkah!

Thanks; we're cool, then. I'm sure we'll be back into it after the holidays.

Hanukkah is over, but I appreciate the sentiment anyway. A Merry Christmas to you and your family!

[The Nice Centurion]

Historically, Jews were oppressed/persecuted/exterminated before the coming of Jesus and they continued to be oppressed/persecuted/exterminated after the death of Jesus. They continue this same pattern even today.

I think you are confused, Confused. Because the Jews were NOT oppressed/persecuted/exterminated before the gospels and the rise of christianity.

This may be jewish propaganda and christian mythology, but it is in no way correct.

Exodus? Hardships in Egypt? Propaganda!

For example; Even the most fundamentalist bible apologists concur that the jews had special rights under roman rule.
That is reverse to oppressed/persecuted/exterminated !

Red hot boiling antisemitism came with christianity. It is a christian innovation.

Remember also that the leaders of the Third Reich were christians and the NSDAP was a christian movement.

Now, Christianity has flourished, has become the dominant religion. Jesus, as the Christ, has brought unity to the masses. And still Jews continue to reject Him as the Messiah.

The dominant religion in the western world perhaps.
And why should jews fall for the Argument from Majority Fallacy ?

Unity to the masses? Tell that to the christian countrys Ukraine and Russia. Or try to get catholics interested in the Book of Mormon.

What can Christians offer Jews that would make them see the light? Make them understand, in the context that Jews would understand within their own ideology, that Jesus is the way, the only way?

A brainwashing?

[Avoice]

Why would we accept a religion that isnt necessary? We have the God of Isrsel. We dont need anything else.

Christians would rather have God spit on and humiliated and nailed to a tree (or so they believe) rather than doing what God wants them to do. They love bacon more than God. They dont care if God said dont eat it.

Christians dont care about the mistranslations. And outright lies made in the Christian testament. And the lirs begin on page one of the book of Mathew. Virgin birth prophecy?? Really? Go read Isaiah 7. And read it in the original Hebrew. It doesnt say a virgin will conceive. Its not even about the messiah.

And being the biggest religion only proves its false. Gods people will be left few in number among the nations.

Also....the Dead Sea Scrolls prove that the Jews have protected the torah. What have been written on our scrolls are what is found on the Dead Sea Scrolls. Christian translations have twisted many texts. What does this tell us? Find the works that God has protected. The works of Christianity have not been protected. There is no original texts. It morphs with every version. God has protected the Hebrew Scriptures. The Dead Sea Scrolls are the oldest known texts. They prove who has the truth. Without the Jews no one would know what God really said.

Sadly for Christians...even wgen you point out the mistrabslations and lies in the versions they dont care to hear about it. They love their bacon and like the idea of God punishing himself for their sins. A Jew would sooner perish than have God spit on.
.

[The Nice Centurion]

Meet a Jew who informs that he found Jesus by personal revelation;

I spent my childhood in the land of the Bible, surrounded by historical places where Jesus and His disciples walked and taught, but I had to travel halfway around the world to truly meet Him. It was in Canada where I eventually ran into teenagers who began witnessing to me about asking Jesus Christ into my heart.

“You’ve got to meet Jesus,” they urged. “You’ve got to meet Him!”

Warm Memories from 1972
I thought I already knew Him. I had lived in the Holy Land. I had gone to religious schools there. I had been an altar boy. I knew many of the religious rituals.

But in Toronto in February 1972, I agreed to go to a before-school prayer meeting. There were only 15 or so students there, but when they began worshipping and praying, it was the most intense spiritual atmosphere I had ever encountered, and I closed my eyes and said to Jesus for the very first time, “Come into my heart.”

What a glorious instant! I felt cleansed from the inside out. There was a purity I had never felt before that seemed to be flowing through me.

At that moment, I saw Jesus, the Son of God!

The students around me continued to pray and worship, unaware of the revolution that was taking place in my heart and life. Then they slipped out to class, one by one. I sat there weeping. I didn’t know what to say. I didn’t know what to do.

Prayer group
During those moments, Jesus became so much more than a historical figure and a name in the Bible. He became real to me.

During the next hours, even as I went through the motions of going to class, I attempted to understand what had happened to me. When I closed my eyes, Jesus was there! When I opened them, Jesus was there! I continued to see His face throughout the day. Inwardly, the words kept bubbling through me, “Jesus, I love You! Jesus, I love You!”

My prayer had been very simple, but He had done something truly extraordinary in my heart that would change my life forever! What I experienced firsthand would be the message that would send me around the world many, many times.
https://www.bennyhinn.org/face-to-face-with-jesus/

So much to . . .

A Jew would sooner perish than have God spit on.