The thief on the cross misconceptions

[DJT_47]

I continually encounter people trying to justify that baptism is not an absolute necessity for one's salvation by use (erroneously) of the thief on the cross as justification, as he was not baptized but yet saved by the Lord, which is true! BUT, the error in this is the lack of understanding of the scriptures. You must read and understand Hebrews 9:15-17 which clarifies why the thief on the cross was saved by Jesus without being baptized. Christ was still alive when this occurred meaning it was done while the old testament or covenant was still in effect; the new testament had not yet been established because Christ had not yet died. And since the Lord was still alive no one could possibly be baptized into Christ under NT salvation criteria. Baptism did not become a requirement as part of salvation until the new testament began which was after the death of Christ. Jesus forgave the thief on the cross no different than he forgave others during his earthly ministry, such as the woman caught in the act of adultery as recorded in John 8. Baptism should not even be an issue when discussing the thief on the cross, but unfortunately always is, but in error.

Hebrews 9:15-17

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

[bob the baptist]

WHAT DID JESUS PROMISE THE REPENTANT THIEF?

Remember, the thief requested Jesus remember him when he [Jesus] gets into his kingdom. In response Jesus didn't promise the thief rulership in the kingdom, in fact he made no mention of the kingdom. Jesus did not reply: " You will be with me in my kingdom" Instead he promised the theif ... PARADISE.

Why did Jesus promise paradise Instead of kingdom?



The word "paradise" originally simple meant "garden" so the thief was offered a resurrection onto a PARADISE earth , as a subject of the kingdom government of which Christ is the head (along with baptised born again spirit anointed Christians)

Surely you remember the whole story!

Yes I do, what is your point?

Sorry JW,
Had to first show John's clarification of "born again" being of spirit, not water baptism and its significance.
To your point of Paradise is different than Kingdom or Heaven - Paradise did not mean "garden" - it meant the garden of a King (of Persian derivative?) seemingly meaning the best place to be in the king's realm, to me.
Rev 2:7
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’
God grants eternal life to the overcomers/conquerors. Anyone in paradise He will grant to eat of the tree of life. That's what Jesus was saying to the thief = Today you will have eternal life with me.
Here, John records that Paradise is of God and that its where the tree of life is located. Some might think that would be the restored garden of Eden, Heaven on Earth, or when Heaven comes down to Earth and God resides with us. I'm not debating any of that here.
So regardless of paradise being another or the same "level" within Heaven, when I die, I will be granted eternal life with Jesus.
"kingdom government" to me hearkens to Peter in Matthew 10:35 Then James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came to him. “Teacher,” they said, “we want you to do for us whatever we ask.” 36 “What do you want me to do for you?” he asked. 37 They replied, “Let one of us sit at your right and the other at your left in your glory.” 38 “You don’t know what you are asking,” Jesus said. “Can you drink the cup I drink or be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with?” 39 “We can,” they answered. Jesus said to them, “You will drink the cup I drink and be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with, 40 but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared.”
So, I don't really have an argument with some being rewarded/honored more than others except that, those who would be first shall be last, etc. I certainly don't plan on being in a kingdom government. I just wanted to make sure we understood what "born again" meant according to John and Jesus.

[JehovahsWitness]

... Paradise did not mean "garden" - it meant the garden of a King (of Persian derivative?)

In the book of GENESIS the Hebrew word for “garden,” is gan . The Greek Septuagint render this same word as "paradeisos" from which we get the English Paradise. So the first reference to paradise in scripture was not a garden belonging to the King of Persia* but rather to the parklike garden of Eden, the home of the first human couple

* Obviously the garden [paradise] of Eden existed long befor the Persian empire.

GENESIS 2:8, 9

Further, Jehovah God planted a garden [paradeisos] in Eden, toward the east; and there he put the man whom he had formed. Thus Jehovah God made to grow out of the ground every tree that was pleasing to look at and good for food

For more details please go to other posts related to...

THE GARDEN OF EDEN , THE TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND BAD and ... PARADISE GARDEN

[bob the baptist]

Thanks

[JehovahsWitness]

... paradise being another or the same "level" within Heaven..

IS THE PARADISE THE RIGHTEOUS ARE PROMISED A LEVEL IN HEAVEN?

No. The first paradise was in a region on this our present planet earth and Jesus promised the earth as an inheritance for the meek. The thief , executed with Jesus was not a baptised spirit anointed Christian, so he cannot qualify to heavenly life; rather he will have the prospect of living on the this our present planet earth restored to the gardenlike conditions of Eden.

[JehovahsWitness]

I just wanted to make sure we understood what "born again" meant according to John and Jesus.

So what do you believe being "born again" means?

[bob the baptist]

I just wanted to make sure we understood what "born again" meant according to John and Jesus.

So what do you believe being "born again" means?

Sorry JW,
Thought you read that.

[bob the baptist]

I just wanted to make sure we understood what "born again" meant according to John and Jesus.

So what do you believe being "born again" means?

Sorry JW,
Thought you read that.

Somehow you got in on a sideways conversation with DJT-47 and MissKate13. Not sure when you showed up but I remember seeing something about Nicodemus and Jesus, I think it was John 3:5 reference. Sorry

[MissKate13]

Thanks

Who are you posting to?

Did you see my post # 39 to you?

[JehovahsWitness]

. ... I remember seeing something about Nicodemus and Jesus, I think it was John 3:5 reference. Sorry

No worries... if you could just answer the question in a sentence or two.

So what do you believe being "born again" [of water] means?

[MissKate13]

To be born again means to be made new. It is a spiritual rebirth. If one is not born again, he/she will not see the kingdom of God.