Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

[POI]

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.

[Mae von H]

I'm going to focus my efforts here....

When Jesus was asked this question, he, himself, gave DIFFERENT answers to different people.

So, the answer could be (all of the above)?

Yes, I suppose so and a few more options not mentioned as well.The problem is, we do NOT get to choose which path we’d like to take. He does.

What you are trying to do is make a procedure out of what has to be a relationship. It’s like, “what is the procedure for falling in love?” This is a category difference.

No. I'm asking how one gets into Heaven? It would be like asking how one gets into "the club"? Is the standard different for differing people?

But the family of God isn’t a club. It’s a family with a Father and siblings. Jesus said you have to go by the gate (Him), not climb in through the window.

Jesus promised he will have to say to many, “go away, we never knew each other.” (Literally, “I never knew you.” )

Is, or is NOT, answer B) a requirement then?

If He tells one to do a,b,c, it’s a requirement. Problem is, He tells different steps to different people although the universal is “repent and believe.”

You know people asked what they personally must do to be saved, not “what’s the procedure for anyone.”

If we consider Jesus has INDIVIDUAL answers to individuals, it’s no wonder He’s asked different followers to tread different paths from each other in following Him. Cults insist there’s no individuality. Christ insists upon relationship which requires individuals.

?????????????????????????????????

Answer key:

A) Unconditional grace - (Jesus already did all the dirty work, everyone goes now since he had to die for all, as all fall short)

Ok, so let’s reason together. What is the purpose of grace? To get scoundrels into Heaven so they ruin it? Is it a ticket out of suffering? No, grace is given so that we have the ability to do right. How can there be “unconditional ability to do right”no matter how much wrong a man does?

B) Faith/belief - (accept him as your savior, ask him for guidance, apply trust in him)

“Surrender” is a more accurate term. Your life is NO LONGER YOURS but His. “Accept” keeps you in control. He doesn’t accept being merely “accepted.” He demands being “Master.”

C) Works - (necessary additional acts or tasks in which Jesus also deems 'good')

If He didn’t tell you to do them, they are “wood, hay and stubble.” No good.

D) Both B) and C)
E) No one goes, no one is worthy
F) Other, which does not already include the topics of B) and/or C)

********************

Relationship is required. You left that out.

Provided Christian answers, thus far:

Post 11: JW No answer
Post 27: Eloi No answer
Post 49: Bjs1 answer B)
Post 76: Tam answer D)
Post 236: kjw47 answer D)
Post 239: DJT_47 answer D)
Post 321: AFG answer D)
Post 758: Mea Von H answer A) or E)?
post 805: 1213 answer A)
Post 812: Capbook answer B)

B and C are the do it yourself version. Actual submission to and relationship with God not at all required.

I care for you too much not to give you the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

He has shown you, man, what is good and what the Lord REQUIRES of you, but to do justly (by others) and to love mercy (forgive when others aren’t just to you) AND to walk humbly with God.

[TRANSPONDER]

I'm going to focus my efforts here....

When Jesus was asked this question, he, himself, gave DIFFERENT answers to different people.

So, the answer could be (all of the above)?

Yes, I suppose so and a few more options not mentioned as well.The problem is, we do NOT get to choose which path we’d like to take. He does.

What you are trying to do is make a procedure out of what has to be a relationship. It’s like, “what is the procedure for falling in love?” This is a category difference.

No. I'm asking how one gets into Heaven? It would be like asking how one gets into "the club"? Is the standard different for differing people?

But the family of God isn’t a club. It’s a family with a Father and siblings. Jesus said you have to go by the gate (Him), not climb in through the window.

Jesus promised he will have to say to many, “go away, we never knew each other.” (Literally, “I never knew you.” )

Is, or is NOT, answer B) a requirement then?

If He tells one to do a,b,c, it’s a requirement. Problem is, He tells different steps to different people although the universal is “repent and believe.”

You know people asked what they personally must do to be saved, not “what’s the procedure for anyone.”

If we consider Jesus has INDIVIDUAL answers to individuals, it’s no wonder He’s asked different followers to tread different paths from each other in following Him. Cults insist there’s no individuality. Christ insists upon relationship which requires individuals.

?????????????????????????????????

Answer key:

A) Unconditional grace - (Jesus already did all the dirty work, everyone goes now since he had to die for all, as all fall short)

Ok, so let’s reason together. What is the purpose of grace? To get scoundrels into Heaven so they ruin it? Is it a ticket out of suffering? No, grace is given so that we have the ability to do right. How can there be “unconditional ability to do right”no matter how much wrong a man does?

B) Faith/belief - (accept him as your savior, ask him for guidance, apply trust in him)

“Surrender” is a more accurate term. Your life is NO LONGER YOURS but His. “Accept” keeps you in control. He doesn’t accept being merely “accepted.” He demands being “Master.”

C) Works - (necessary additional acts or tasks in which Jesus also deems 'good')

If He didn’t tell you to do them, they are “wood, hay and stubble.” No good.

D) Both B) and C)
E) No one goes, no one is worthy
F) Other, which does not already include the topics of B) and/or C)

********************

Relationship is required. You left that out.

Provided Christian answers, thus far:

Post 11: JW No answer
Post 27: Eloi No answer
Post 49: Bjs1 answer B)
Post 76: Tam answer D)
Post 236: kjw47 answer D)
Post 239: DJT_47 answer D)
Post 321: AFG answer D)
Post 758: Mea Von H answer A) or E)?
post 805: 1213 answer A)
Post 812: Capbook answer B)

B and C are the do it yourself version. Actual submission to and relationship with God not at all required.

I care for you too much not to give you the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

He has shown you, man, what is good and what the Lord REQUIRES of you, but to do justly (by others) and to love mercy (forgive when others aren’t just to you) AND to walk humbly with God.

But which is it that saves? What is it that is the best bet for getting to heaven? Faith or works? It has to be Faith as otherwise works done in another religion would also save and the sacrifice of Jesus would be pointless.

It has to be Faith that saves, and the only point of Works (and Paul indicates this) is not to risk losing grace (once obtained by Faith) by not sinning, or least not by so much that it can'y be bought off by a bit of ritual mumbo - jumbo.

[POI]

Your answers become more convoluted as we venture forward....

Yes, I suppose so and a few more options not mentioned as well.The problem is, we do NOT get to choose which path we’d like to take. He does.

That would be logically impossible because option A) alone suggests ALL already go to Heaven. Which means, the other options then become inapplicable. And in post 758, you have not given any pushback to suggest that your answer is either A) verses E)?

But the family of God isn’t a club. It’s a family with a Father and siblings. Jesus said you have to go by the gate (Him), not climb in through the window.

You missed my point. If there IS a standard, then all must apply to this standard. IS there A standard? If so, what IS the standard?

If He tells one to do a,b,c, it’s a requirement. Problem is, He tells different steps to different people although the universal is “repent and believe.”

??? So, (repentance and belief <or> answer B) is a standard, or the standard, or is merely a possible additional standard?

Ok, so let’s reason together. What is the purpose of grace? To get scoundrels into Heaven so they ruin it? Is it a ticket out of suffering? No, grace is given so that we have the ability to do right. How can there be “unconditional ability to do right”no matter how much wrong a man does?

"Unconditional grace" would mean all get in, yes. "Conditional grace" would mean not all get in. Answer A) suggests "unconditional grace". Are you instead arguing for "conditional grace"? If so, is THE criteria answer B) alone, and/or other?

“Surrender” is a more accurate term. Your life is NO LONGER YOURS but His. “Accept” keeps you in control. He doesn’t accept being merely “accepted.” He demands being “Master.”

Your response here is really just splitting hairs. It is not a new category. So, is 'surrendering', believing, repenting, following, and having faith, <or> (answer B), THE criteria or not?

If He didn’t tell you to do them, they are “wood, hay and stubble.” No good.

So, works are not part of THE criteria? The Bible suggests they are also required in spots.

Relationship is required. You left that out.

It's lumped in with answer B). So, B) is a requirement or THE requirement?

He has shown you, man, what is good and what the Lord REQUIRES of you, but to do justly (by others) and to love mercy (forgive when others aren’t just to you) AND to walk humbly with God.

Your answers are quite confusing, much like the answers given in the Bible. What IS the criteria for salvation?

[Mae von H]

Your answers become more convoluted as we venture forward....

I work in science and am used to the truth being complex.

Yes, I suppose so and a few more options not mentioned as well.The problem is, we do NOT get to choose which path we’d like to take. He does.

That would be logically impossible because option A) alone suggests ALL already go to Heaven. Which means, the other options then become inapplicable. And in post 758, you have not given any pushback to suggest that your answer is either A) verses E)?

I don’t see the impossibility of my response. Clearly all are not sent to live in Heaven as it would no longer be Heaven. Why isn’t then human choices the obvious difference?

But the family of God isn’t a club. It’s a family with a Father and siblings. Jesus said you have to go by the gate (Him), not climb in through the window.

You missed my point. If there IS a standard, then all must apply to this standard. IS there A standard? If so, what IS the standard?

I told you. Do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with God.

If He tells one to do a,b,c, it’s a requirement. Problem is, He tells different steps to different people although the universal is “repent and believe.”

??? So, (repentance and belief <or> answer B) is a standard, or the standard, or is merely a possible additional standard?

Its the beginning, not the end.

Ok, so let’s reason together. What is the purpose of grace? To get scoundrels into Heaven so they ruin it? Is it a ticket out of suffering? No, grace is given so that we have the ability to do right. How can there be “unconditional ability to do right”no matter how much wrong a man does?

"Unconditional grace" would mean all get in, yes.

Grace is always conditional.

"Conditional grace" would mean not all get in. Answer A) suggests "unconditional grace". Are you instead arguing for "conditional grace"? If so, is THE criteria answer B) alone, and/or other?

Your choices don’t reflect the truth so I cannot be restricted to one and be honest.

“Surrender” is a more accurate term. Your life is NO LONGER YOURS but His. “Accept” keeps you in control. He doesn’t accept being merely “accepted.” He demands being “Master.”

Your response here is really just splitting hairs. It is not a new category. So, is 'surrendering', believing, repenting, following, and having faith, <or> (answer B), THE criteria or not?

The difference between accepting and surrender is night and day. The Japanese accepted that the Americans had won, but General MacArthur required his counterpart surrender his sword.

If He didn’t tell you to do them, they are “wood, hay and stubble.” No good.

So, works are not part of THE criteria? The Bible suggests they are also required in spots.

If God asks a man to do works, they are required.

Relationship is required. You left that out.

It's lumped in with answer B). So, B) is a requirement or THE requirement?

Relationship isn’t a work but it cannot be without faith.

He has shown you, man, what is good and what the Lord REQUIRES of you, but to do justly (by others) and to love mercy (forgive when others aren’t just to you) AND to walk humbly with God.

Your answers are quite confusing, much like the answers given in the Bible. What IS the criteria for salvation?

Repent and believing surrendering your life. Jesus said, “follow me,” not “agree with me.”

[POI]

I work in science and am used to the truth being complex.

That's not what I mean. Yes, science is hard. But there is no such thing as your scientific truth verses another's scientific truth. The truth is the truth, if the word 'truth' is an actual thing in science.

I don’t see the impossibility of my response. Clearly all are not sent to live in Heaven as it would no longer be Heaven. Why isn’t then human choices the obvious difference?

Nothing is clear. You, yourself, have no idea if a Heaven even exists, let alone who goes and who does not go. You said it yourself, God chooses, not us. You do not know who God would choose. But my point is that unconditional grace means just that, grace for all. Maybe answer A) was Jesus's gift to humanity? Maybe his suffrage, allows for ALL, who ALL fall short? You are a self-proclaimed "sinner", just like all others, right? Further, common sense would suggest that Heaven is a sinless place. Which would mean you would be required to be made anew to enter into such a pure environment anyways. And since all would need to be made anew, including you, so that you are now sinless, then maybe ALL go?

I told you. Do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with God.

If this IS a requirement, then all who have never heard of the Christian God are doomed. Right?

Its the beginning, not the end.

Repentance is required?

Grace is always conditional.

Not if it's unconditional That's why I asked. Maybe it is? Maybe it is answer A)?

The difference between accepting and surrender is night and day. The Japanese accepted that the Americans had won, but General MacArthur required his counterpart surrender his sword.

Sure, but if you read the answer key, it already encompasses "faith". And the term faith already encompasses many things, as implied. It can mean to apply trust in him, accept him, applying hope in him, repenting when felt necessary, etc.... It's still tied into answer B). We already know, as the story goes, that 'Satan' believes he exists, but he chooses to rebel. He has none of the qualities I mentioned for Jesus.

If God asks a man to do works, they are required.

Anyone who reads the whole of the Bible will come across passages which state 'works' are required. Are you suggesting we should not read the whole of the Bible? Otherwise, all will run across such passages.

Relationship isn’t a work but it cannot be without faith.

Right, so answer B) IS a requirement? I guess this again means that anyone who never hears of Jesus, and then dies, are doomed?

Repent and believing surrendering your life. Jesus said, “follow me,” not “agree with me.”

Sounds like, the more and more you respond, that the ones who never hear of Jesus, and then die, are screwed? If not, then what you repeatedly say is NOT a requirement after all.

[Mae von H]

I work in science and am used to the truth being complex.

That's not what I mean. Yes, science is hard. But there is no such thing as your scientific truth verses another's scientific truth. The truth is the truth, if the word 'truth' is an actual thing in science.

Good point. “Theory” belongs to science. “Truth” belongs to philosophy or psychology or religion. But science is useful to them.

I don’t see the impossibility of my response. Clearly all are not sent to live in Heaven as it would no longer be Heaven. Why isn’t then human choices the obvious difference?

Nothing is clear. You, yourself, have no idea if a Heaven even exists, let alone who goes and who does not go. You said it yourself, God chooses, not us.

You got the wrong poster. Someone else said God chooses. I say we choose. And eternity hangs on our choice. He chooses all eventually, but few respond to the call. Jesus chose some for particular missions, but all were free to follow. He never told a person, they’re not chosen.

You do not know who God would choose.

Yes I do….all. Will you choose to respond is the question.

But my point is that unconditional grace means just that, grace for all. Maybe answer A) was Jesus's gift to humanity? Maybe his suffrage, allows for ALL, who ALL fall short?

But you’re defining “grace” as a free ticket to Heaven. I told you God’s definition of “grace” is the ability to do what is right.

You are a self-proclaimed "sinner", just like all others, right?

No, others point out my sins to me from time to time. To them they’re more obvious than to me.

Further, common sense would suggest that Heaven is a sinless place. Which would mean you would be required to be made anew to enter into such a pure environment anyways. And since all would need to be made anew, including you, so that you are now sinless, then maybe ALL go?

This is a superior understanding which is why I enjoy exchanging with you. You are a rare deep thinker. Back to the thought…

The superior aspect of your thought is the observation that we need to be changed to live in Heaven, a sinless place. Excellent!! That’s exactly why grace is given to those who humble themselves, so that they have the power to DO what is right. A lifetime of this, only accomplished by surrendering and following Jesus, deeply changes a person. They have the power to choose right and come to hate the times they fail. I know of no one but followers of Jesus who become this. Everyone else lives at peace with the wrong they do as the years pass. CS Lewis termed it “making one self fit for Heaven or Hell.” And I do know there’s a Heaven. It’s risky to try to imagine how a follower of Jesus thinks if you aren’t one. It’s too far out of your experience. But i’ve been following the Christ for over 50 years. Changes a woman.

I told you. Do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with God.

If this IS a requirement, then all who have never heard of the Christian God are doomed. Right?

No, they will be judged by how much they lived up to their own expressed standard or right and wrong. What could be more fair? And He’s the God of the whole earth. I’ve traveled quite a bit and He’s known in other people groups by, naturally, a non-English word.

Its the beginning, not the end.

Repentance is required?

It is. If one wants to get clean, one must come under cleansing water.

Grace is always conditional.

Not if it's unconditional That's why I asked. Maybe it is? Maybe it is answer A)?

Its conditional. If you don’t like the truth, you’ll never find it.

The difference between accepting and surrender is night and day. The Japanese accepted that the Americans had won, but General MacArthur required his counterpart surrender his sword.

Sure, but if you read the answer key, it already encompasses "faith". And the term faith already encompasses many things, as implied. It can mean to apply trust in him, accept him, applying hope in him, repenting when felt necessary, etc.... It's still tied into answer B). We already know, as the story goes, that 'Satan' believes he exists, but he chooses to rebel. He has none of the qualities I mentioned for Jesus.

Well “faith” is a matter that God measures in a man. It’s not a matter of us deciding which definition he likes. Modern preachers like “accept” because it’s cheap and easy. They’ll be liked for lowering the bar. “Surrender” sounds more ominous and costly.

If God asks a man to do works, they are required.

Anyone who reads the whole of the Bible will come across passages which state 'works' are required. Are you suggesting we should not read the whole of the Bible? Otherwise, all will run across such passages.

Where does that conclusion come from? God speaks through His word.

Relationship isn’t a work but it cannot be without faith.

Right, so answer B) IS a requirement? I guess this again means that anyone who never hears of Jesus, and then dies, are doomed?

Repent and believing surrendering your life. Jesus said, “follow me,” not “agree with me.”

Sounds like, the more and more you respond, that the ones who never hear of Jesus, and then die, are screwed? If not, then what you repeatedly say is NOT a requirement after all.

First, each man will stand before God and answer as to the choices made while in the body. The standard is what each one expressed as to how he expected others to treat him. What could be more fair?

[Capbook]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #813]


KJV

Eph 2:10
10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
NIV
For me I would prefer to do good works though sinful in nature, seek guidance from the HS and try to show my love to Jesus. John 14:15

i can relate to that 2nd line (not the first, which is a Faithclaim without evidential force), but I would change a few of the words. "For me I would prefer to do good works though imperfect in nature, seek guidance from the moral tradition and try to show my love for my fellow human, or at least, my best wishes."

Well, that is good but I have a God that I could try to show my love into. Who also teach us to love our neighbors as ourselves.

[Capbook]

[Replying to POI in post #815]

For those who died without hearing the gospel. I believe Romans 2:14-15 applicable to them;

They instinctively and intuitively know the difference between right and wrong. This is not referring to the ceremonial law and the civil law. It is referring to the moral law of God contained in the Ten Commandments. They instinctively know they should honor their parents. They instinctively know they should not steal. They instinctively know they should tell the truth. They instinctively know that they should love other people and show compassion to others. They instinctively know it, because God has written it upon their hearts.

So then, answer B) is actually not a requirement?

This website is Debating Christianity, I refer my first answer to Christians which B is a requirement.
Your question is about the non-believers/not Christians who died without hearing the gospel.
They will be judge by their works base in Romans 2:14-15.

[POI]

[Replying to POI in post #815]

For those who died without hearing the gospel. I believe Romans 2:14-15 applicable to them;

They instinctively and intuitively know the difference between right and wrong. This is not referring to the ceremonial law and the civil law. It is referring to the moral law of God contained in the Ten Commandments. They instinctively know they should honor their parents. They instinctively know they should not steal. They instinctively know they should tell the truth. They instinctively know that they should love other people and show compassion to others. They instinctively know it, because God has written it upon their hearts.

So then, answer B) is actually not a requirement?

This website is Debating Christianity, I refer my first answer to Christians which B is a requirement.
Your question is about the non-believers/not Christians who died without hearing the gospel.
They will be judge by their works base in Romans 2:14-15.

Then belief is not a requirement, but works is?

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #813]


KJV

Eph 2:10
10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
NIV
For me I would prefer to do good works though sinful in nature, seek guidance from the HS and try to show my love to Jesus. John 14:15

i can relate to that 2nd line (not the first, which is a Faithclaim without evidential force), but I would change a few of the words. "For me I would prefer to do good works though imperfect in nature, seek guidance from the moral tradition and try to show my love for my fellow human, or at least, my best wishes."

Well, that is good but I have a God that I could try to show my love into. Who also teach us to love our neighbors as ourselves.

Well, that is good,if it is a beleif that does that rather than a dislike of anyone who does not believe as they do, and I'drather try to do the good for rational reasons rather than because it is commanded in a book.