God knows who He favors, God knows who He has chosen

[Stewardofthemystery]

To be saved by God’s grace means you have been saved by God’s favor. So God favors some over others. Jacob He loved, but Esau He hated.

And some think they have chosen God, but that means nothing if God has not chosen them. It is God who chooses whom He favors, it is God who chooses to have mercy on whomsoever He will. God has chosen His elect even before the world began.

In this we can see and understand there is no room for boasting in works on our part for being chosen by God, and saved by His grace.

Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

[Eddie Ramos]

In regards to Ephesians 1:4, I have a few questions for you.

(1) Why do you believe he chose us individuals in Christ instead of he chose us, as in the community of Christ followers as a whole group?

(2) In verse 5, why do you interpret the predestining here in the causal sense (God's predestination of certain individuals prompted his choice of them) instead of an instrumental sense (the means by which God's choice was accomplished was by predestination)?

(3) In verse 13, why is it when we believe in Christ that we are marked, rather than when God chose us before the foundation of the world?

Thanks for your thoughts to help me challenge my own view!

Hey Tanager, in your dialogue with the OP I noticed that these 3 sets of verses never got specifically addressed, so If you don't mind, I'd like to address them for you.

1. Christ chose the elect. This can be viewed as a group made up of individuals, but either way you slilce it, it was the sins of each individual (within the elect) that was laid upon Christ.

Isaiah 53:11 (KJV 1900)
He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied:
By his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many;
For he shall bear their iniquities.

Matthew 1:21 (KJV 1900)
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Matthew 26:28 (KJV 1900)
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

The word "their" identifies individuals and their sins. But God also identifies these individuals in a group setting.

Acts 20:28 (KJV 1900)
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

2 Corinthians 6:16 (KJV 1900)
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Ephesians 5:23 (KJV 1900)
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

So, God while God uses many groups by which he associates those whom he died for, each group is made up of individuals.

The temple is made up of individual living stones. The body is made up of individual body parts (members). The church is made up of indivuals as well. Let me know if I misunderstood this question.

2. We don't have to wonder what God means by "predestination", we can let the Bible define this word for us. The word for "predestination" is Strong's G4309 and it's only used 6 times in the NT.

Acts 4:27–28 (KJV 1900)
For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, 28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

The word "predestination" can be understood as that which is "determined before" of God. And since this context has nothing to do with the predestination of individuals (or a group) to salvation, we can see that the word "predestination" itself isn't used exclusively for salvation. But we can take the understanding of what predestination is and use it to understand Romans 8.

Romans 8:28–33 (KJV 1900)
And we know that all things work together for good to them (individuals) that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did [predestinate] determine before to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did [predestinate] determine before(to be conformed to the image of his Son), them (individuals) he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. 31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect (group of individuals)? It is God that justifieth.

So, all things work together for good to those inviduals that love God, and we know that if someone loves God it means that God loved them first. These individuals are those who were called according to the purpose of God. And that end purpose we can see is the glorification of those who have been justified from their sins. So, predestination, insofar as salvation is concerned, is to determine before those who would be adopted children unto God.

Ephesians 1:5 (KJV 1900)
Having determined before our adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

3. Ephesians 1:13 (KJV 1900)
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

The best way to understand any verse is to interpret it under the light of everything else the Bible has to say and not at face value and isolated from the rest of the Bible. But here's the immediate context to start with:

Ephesians 1:11–13 (KJV 1900)
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated (our inheritance was deteremined beforehand) according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

This identifies with salvation first coming to the Jews (those who first trusted in Christ) and then to the Gentiles (Vs 13) (In whom ye also...). Both are said to have trusted in Christ (although verse 13 is implied). But here we read that their trust in Christ came after they heard and after they believed. And this is the way most Christians believe salvation takes place. You first ahve to hear the gospel and then you make the choice to believe. And after you believe and decide to place your trust in Christ, then you're sealed with the Holy Spirit, meaning then you're officially saved. But the problem with this verse is in the way it's being read. Here's how the words appear in an interlinear:

"In whom you also, having heard the Word of Truth, the good news of your salvation, in whom also having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise".

Now, while the interlinear seems to say the same thing the KJV says, it helps me point out something important in the aspect of salvation. Notice that before one could've trusted in Christ, they first had to have heard the Word of Truth. But this isn't something we did only in past action before we "decided" to believe. The words "having heard" and having believed" are not only past tense but are also active tense. This means it's on going. So, "having heard" has nothing to do with our physical hearing, neither does our believing has anything to do with a faith we think we possess that made salvation effective. Here is a parrallel verse:

Romans 10:17 (KJV 1900)
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The faith this verse speaks of is a fruit of the Spirit, or, it's a result of having the Spirit. So, this verse canbe understood to say, "So then salvation cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God". The only problem is that this is interpreted as physical hearing and that is not what's in view here because that would exclude the deaf. This hearing is spiritual hearing. It is having your spiritual ears open to hear spiritual truths. This is why Christ oftened spoke of hearing and not hearing.

Mark 7:16 (KJV 1900)
If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

Revelation 2:29 (KJV 1900)
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

This had to do with understanding what Christ meant by what he said because he always spoke in parables. This is why the exclamation to those who have ears to hear has to do with what the Spirit is saying. And the physical hearing of the ear could never hear, meaning, it could never understand spiritual things.

John 8:43 (KJV 1900)
Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

John 8:47 (KJV 1900)
He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

In other words, it's the children of God (those who have become saved - born again) that hear the Word of Truth. This means that faith (the fruit of the Spirit) comes by hearing, meaning, it comes by God having opened your spiritual ears to hear, or by having given you eternal life. And hearing (eternal life) comes by the Word of God. This is why it had to be preached in all the world. Ephesians 1:13 is understood the same way.

Ephesians 1:13 (KJV 1900)
In whom ye also trusted, having heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also having believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Before trusting in Christ, one had to be able to hear the word of truth, again, not physically but spiritually. This means that before we could trust in Christ, we first had to be brought to life and only then could we hear and obey anything God had to say. This is reinforced by the resurrection of Lazarus from the dead. Christ gave him a command (as he gives us aple commandments) that Lazarus could never obey becauise he was dead. It was only after Christ gave him physicallife (which typifies spiritual life) that Lazarus could obey the comamand given to him. The same is true for anyone who ever became saved. We could not obey the command to trust in God, the way God required it, until after we had been brought to spiritual life. The phrase "having believed" identifies with the faith that came by hearing because "believing" is the verb form of the word faith. In other words, having believed (because of the fruit of our salvation) ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.

So, none of this teaches that any action on our part initiates salvation, much less predestination.

[Stewardofthemystery]

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

One question at the moment for you. What role (if any) according to the Bible, did each person play in becoming born again?

Being born again of the Holy Spirit is a gift from God.

What role did you play when you are firstborn of the flesh? None, because you did not give birth to yourself.

It is the same with being born again of the Holy Spirit.

[Eddie Ramos]

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

One question at the moment for you. What role (if any) according to the Bible, did each person play in becoming born again?

Being born again of the Holy Spirit is a gift from God.

What role did you play when you are firstborn of the flesh? None, because you did not give birth to yourself.

It is the same with being born again of the Holy Spirit.

Agreed. I just asked because some who hold to the doctrine of election also believe that man's faith played a role in the initiation of his salvation. That would be like giving Lazarus a command and expecting him to obey it before he was given life, while he was dead in his tomb.

[The Tanager]

Hey Tanager, in your dialogue with the OP I noticed that these 3 sets of verses never got specifically addressed, so If you don't mind, I'd like to address them for you.

I welcome all contributions.

1. Christ chose the elect. This can be viewed as a group made up of individuals, but either way you slilce it, it was the sins of each individual (within the elect) that was laid upon Christ.

…

So, God while God uses many groups by which he associates those whom he died for, each group is made up of individuals.

The temple is made up of individual living stones. The body is made up of individual body parts (members). The church is made up of indivuals as well. Let me know if I misunderstood this question.

Yes, you misunderstood the question. I absolutely agree that all of our individual sins were laid upon Christ. I was asking why Eph 1:4, specifically, could only refer to choosing individuals instead of speaking of corporate election, where God chooses the group “all those who put their faith in Jesus” as the way of salvation.

2. We don't have to wonder what God means by "predestination", we can let the Bible define this word for us. The word for "predestination" is Strong's G4309 and it's only used 6 times in the NT.

…

So, all things work together for good to those inviduals that love God, and we know that if someone loves God it means that God loved them first. These individuals are those who were called according to the purpose of God. And that end purpose we can see is the glorification of those who have been justified from their sins. So, predestination, insofar as salvation is concerned, is to determine before those who would be adopted children unto God.

We agree Acts 4:27-28 isn’t about salvation.

Romans 8:28-33 isn’t about salvation either. The context there is Christians who are presently suffering and how that won’t compare to our future glory (8:18). We can know that these present sufferings are being used by God for the good of those called according to His purpose. In other words, those suffering for the sake of the kingdom. God predestined that our suffering will be used to conform us to the image of His Son (v. 29). And these will be called, justified, and glorified. It’s encouragement to stay the course in the face of suffering.

Ephesians 1:5, on the surface, fits both the individual and corporate election viewpoint. In both we are adopted to sonship through Jesus which is God’s pleasure and will to do. It’s not about being Jewish or following the rules 100% or 51% or anything else, but about what Jesus did on our behalf. But the NET has the note I shared earlier about this verse. Those scholars say that an instrumental nuance (which suggests the means/method by which God’s choice was accomplished by predestination) is more likely than a causal nuance (which would suggest God’s predestination of certain individuals prompted his choice of them) because we have an aorist participle following an aorist main verb.

In Ephesians 1:11 you say it’s about the Jews being the first to trust in Christ, then the Gentiles. That’s not individual salvation.

The words "having heard" and having believed" are not only past tense but are also active tense. This means it's on going. So, "having heard" has nothing to do with our physical hearing, neither does our believing has anything to do with a faith we think we possess that made salvation effective. Here is a parrallel verse:

Wait, so in Mark 16:9, Jesus’ rising from the dead is on going? That doesn’t seem right. He rose (completed that action) and then appeared to Mary and then others.

So, in Ephesians 1:13-14, it seems we do have Paul talking about when the Ephesians were included. Not before the world began, but when they heard the message of truth and believed. If it were predestination, we wouldn’t even need to spiritually hear; we are just changed by God’s choice.

The other use of predestination is 1 Cor 2:7. Where it’s about how God’s plan went against the wisdom of humans. It’s about the way of salvation not being conceived by humans and there have been other religions conceiving of God choosing some and not others; there isn’t anything like Jesus’ incarnating and dying for our sins.

And this is exactly what Romans 9 is about. God chose the method of salvation. It’s not being born Jewish (9:6-7) but through Isaac instead of Ishmael. This isn’t all physical descendants of Isaac because the choice then gets split between Jacob and Esau. This is about the Messianic lineage as God’s way to show compassion, not some other method (be that ethnicity, following a bunch of rules, or God just deciding who He’ll bring to Heaven and who He’ll send to Hell).

Romans 10:17 (KJV 1900)
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The faith this verse speaks of is a fruit of the Spirit, or, it's a result of having the Spirit. So, this verse canbe understood to say, "So then salvation cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God". The only problem is that this is interpreted as physical hearing and that is not what's in view here because that would exclude the deaf. This hearing is spiritual hearing. It is having your spiritual ears open to hear spiritual truths. This is why Christ oftened spoke of hearing and not hearing.

While other passages speak of a faith/trust that is the fruit of the spirit, Romans 10 is not talking about that. It is talking about how we come in right standing with God. In verse 5 Paul says Moses wrote about a righteousness by the law, but Jesus gave us a righteousness by faith. This is the gospel message faith that Paul preached. And those who confess Jesus is Lord and believe God raised Him from the dead will be saved (10:9) not “those God chose before the world began will be saved”.

Paul then talks about how people can be saved if they haven’t heard the message. In individual predestination, they are saved before ever hearing the message. Paul then mentions how some will reject, yet still God holds out His hands to disobedient and stubborn people (v. 21). If individual election is true, God does not hold out His hands to the disobedient and stubborn; He has withdrawn His hands from them forever.

So, none of this teaches that any action on our part initiates salvation, much less predestination.

I’m not saying our actions initiate salvation or predestination. God alone chooses the way of salvation and God alone initiates each individual. God doesn’t determine how we will react to it.

[Eddie Ramos]

I was asking why Eph 1:4, specifically, could only refer to choosing individuals instead of speaking of corporate election, where God chooses the group “all those who put their faith in Jesus” as the way of salvation.

I see. Well, the Bible teaches that both are true, but let me explain. God did choose the way of salvation, it was Christ. And Christ (the way) provided redemption for each individual chosen to become saved by God (the body of the elect). This passage shows us both.

John 14:6 (KJV 1900)
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

The price for sin (which was death) was paid by Christ before the world began. One payment for sin satisfied the requirement the law of God demanded. But it wasn't every sin of everyone who would ever come into existence that was laid upon Christ (it wasn't a universal atonement), it was only those sins of each individual who was chosen for salvation. Certainly not an open election to “all those who put their faith in Jesus” because this is a free will teaching, not an election teaching. And salvation never took place by someone deciding to place a faith they never had in Christ. Saving Faith proceeded salvation, it never preceded it. If anyone has trusted in the fact that they decided to believe in Jesus to become saved, then they are trusting in a works gospel that could've never saved. This is especially sad because the same individuals who firmly believe that works (obedience to any commandmet of the Bible) did not save, are trusting in a work they themselves did by deciding to believe and so become "saved".

1 John 3:23 (KJV 1900)
And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

To believe in Jesus Christ is a commandment, just as it is to love one another. If no one ever became saved by loving one another (by keeping this commandment which is a work of the law) then why is believing any different of a comamndment? A commandment is a commandment, and trusting in any good work we have done never resulted in salvation. The Bible gives us plenty of evidence that making a concious decision to believe in Jesus Christ did not result in salvation. The key to believing, without it being a work of the law that we are trusting to have saved us, is in the heart.

Acts 8:37 (KJV 1900)
And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

And this gets into the condition of the heart of man. And it was never with the wicked heart of stone that man had by which they could decide to believe and make their stony heart a true living heart. No, the living heart had to come first before one could believe with all their heart (their whole heart).

Remember, being born again was never the result of man's own will, but only of God's.

John 1:12–13 (KJV 1900)
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (is this free will? Well, if one stops here they can claim that, but it wouldn't be true because of what the next verse says): 13 Which were born (meaning, born again), not of blood (not of bloodline), nor of the will of the flesh(not by man's desire), nor of the will of man (not by man's own effort), but of God
(But were born again/begotten by the will of God).

James 1:18 (KJV 1900)
Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Romans 8:28-33 isn’t about salvation either. The context there is Christians who are presently suffering and how that won’t compare to our future glory (8:18). We can know that these present sufferings are being used by God for the good of those called according to His purpose. In other words, those suffering for the sake of the kingdom. God predestined that our suffering will be used to conform us to the image of His Son (v. 29). And these will be called, justified, and glorified. It’s encouragement to stay the course in the face of suffering.

I agree that suffering is part of the context, but it's not the whole context. The other part of the context is who the suffering is specifically for. That is the elect, and how they became the elect.

Romans 8:28–37 (KJV 1900)
And we know that all things (like the weakness and sufferings mentioned earlier) work together for good (for who?) to them that love God (now the context has shifted to focus on the elect), to them who are the called according to his purpose (so the purpose of God here is not focusing on any suffering but on the elect themselves. And now God continues to speak about the elect and how they became the elect). 29 For whom he did foreknow (like Jeremiah 1:5), he also did predestinate (predestinate for what? Certainly not our suffering) to be conformed to the image of his Son (what does it mean to be predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son? The very next line answers this.), that he (Christ) might be the firstborn (from the dead) among many brethren (To be predestinated to be conformed to the image of his son has everything to do with salvation because it has to do with being brought to life from the dead, of which Christ was first, and then each elect when they were given spiritual life/saved. And upon salvation, each elect became his brethren. BUt predestination was not the only thing required for our salvation. That's why the next verse continues to elaborate). 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified (This means he made them just which means he has applied his atoning work on the life of each elect throughout history, each one in his own time): and whom he justified, them he also glorified. 31 What shall we then say to these things? (To the things just spoken of their salvation) If God be for us (the elect), who can be against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all (This is clearly salvation language), how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? (Not only salvation but also tribulations) 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? (This means we stand guilt free from our sins because...) It is God that justifieth. 34 Who is he that condemneth? (No one can. Again, because...) It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us (This is salvation language. And along with our mediator who stands before God to present us faultless, he also interceedes for our weaknesses in the flesh). 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. (It is because Christ laid his life down for us (salvation) that we are ready, willing and able to endure anything that comes our way in this world, because it is only through salvation that we are more than conquerors).

In Ephesians 1:11 you say it’s about the Jews being the first to trust in Christ, then the Gentiles. That’s not individual salvation.

Of course it is. Just because the Jews were the first to have the gospel and be the stewards of the Word of God, doesn't mean they (as a collective group) were given the ability to become saved. Salvation was always the same from the day Adam sinned. It was always by grace. This is why throughout the Old Test. period, very few Jews (by comparison) were actually saved.

Hebrews 3:18–19 (KJV 1900)
And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

This word "unbelief" is the word faith with the aplha prefix which negates the word Faith, so it literally menas, "no faith". Those Jews could not enter into the promised land (which tipifies the new earth) because they had no faith, meaning they did not have the faith of Christ/were not saved.

The same applies to the Gentiles when the gospel officially went out into all the world. Now, the elect individuals from among the Jews as well as the Gentiles would become saved.

The words "having heard" and having believed" are not only past tense but are also active tense. This means it's on going. So, "having heard" has nothing to do with our physical hearing, neither does our believing has anything to do with a faith we think we possess that made salvation effective. Here is a parrallel verse:

Wait, so in Mark 16:9, Jesus’ rising from the dead is on going? That doesn’t seem right. He rose (completed that action) and then appeared to Mary and then others.

Not sure how Mark 16:9 is relevant to what I said. Could you elaborate? The topic here is on hearing which means that ones spiritual ears have been opened and is actively opened. The same is true for believing. Both of these took place because each elect was first risen from the dead. That took place only once.

Part 2 to follow......

[Eddie Ramos]

So, in Ephesians 1:13-14, it seems we do have Paul talking about when the Ephesians were included. Not before the world began, but when they heard the message of truth and believed. If it were predestination, we wouldn’t even need to spiritually hear; we are just changed by God’s choice.

While verses 13 & 14 of Ephesians 1 are indeed historically speaking about the inclusion of the faithful within the church at Ephesus, we have to ask, what they were included into. And that's what the preceeding context addresses:

Ephesians 1:1–14 (KJV 1900)
PAUL, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace be to you, and peace (grace and peace from God only belong to those who have become saved (Isa 57:21)), from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: (The "US" is not just speaking about Paul and the church at Ephesus. It's all inclusive to all of those who have been chosen for salvation from the foundation of the world) 4 According as he hath chosen us in him (chosen when)before the foundation of the world, (Chosen for what?) that we should be holy and without blame before him in (meaning "through") love (And Christ's love has everything to do with his atonement): (And here's how the process of being holy and without blame came about...) 5 Having predestinated us (predestinated us for what purpose?) unto the adoption of children (sonship was only possible by Christ's atoning death) by Jesus Christ to himself, (and here's the way by which God determined who he would predestinate to become sons...) according to the good pleasure of his will, (That's it). 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved (through Christ). 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace (all of this is speaking of of God's elect, every single one); 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance (the inheritance is salvation and it's for all of God's elect. Upon salvation, we become joint heirs with Christ. And all this was predestined.), being predestinated (on what basis?) according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. (This is speaking of the elect from among the Jews who were the first stewards of the gospel) 13 In whom ye also trusted (this is speaking to the Gentiles and the church at Ephesus is used as that example), after that ye heard the word of truth (this is is speaking of the process of salvation in that before we could trust in Christ, we first had to have our spiritual ears opened, that is, wwe first had to be saved and made alive by the gospel), the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

So, this is clearly speaking of predestination unto salvation before the world began. And we can't be the ones to dictate how God has laid out his salvation program and say, "If it were predestination, we wouldn’t even need to spiritually hear; we are just changed by God’s choice." God, in His Word, has laid out the penalty for sin (death) and the means by which he would forgive sins, along with every step involved in the salvation process. God's word stipulated that faith (salvation) comes by having one's spiritual ears opened, and God also determined that the opening of the spiritual ears was to be accomplished by the preaching of the gospel. God would apply that gospel to the dead life of each of his elect (each one in God's own time) and make them a new creation, an everlasting creation, raising their dead soul from death to life. Upon being raised to life, these individuals would begin to call upon the name of the Lord in a manner that would be pleasing unto God because when God looked at them (at their soul), he no longer sees sin, but perfectness.

The other use of predestination is 1 Cor 2:7. Where it’s about how God’s plan went against the wisdom of humans. It’s about the way of salvation not being conceived by humans and there have been other religions conceiving of God choosing some and not others; there isn’t anything like Jesus’ incarnating and dying for our sins.

Ultimately, the entire Bible has some aspect of the message of salvation woven through it. 1 Cor 2 speaks of the spirituality of the Word of God, in that while God recorded it primarily by way of actual historical accounts, the spiritual truths of salvation have been hidden within within those accounts. That's why this hidden wisdom is said to be in a mystery. This means that when the Word of God is read by the natural mind, all they see are historical truths and glean moral truths from it. But the spiritual truth is the hidden truth resserved for those who are perfect (meaning saved).

1 Corinthians 2:6–16 (KJV 1900)
Howbeit we speak wisdom (referring to the spiritual truth of the Word of God) among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: (this is referring to the everlasting gospel) 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew (meaning, understood) (and the princes of this world is a reference to the nation of Israel because they were the only stewards of the gospel in the entire Old Testament era): for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory (The rules/princes in Israel were the one who insisted that Christ be crucified) (but this was all according to God's plan...). 9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him (for the elect). 10 But God hath revealed them (the things which God has prepared and written in His Word but hidden. These things were revealed....) unto us by his Spirit: (But how does the Spirit of God reveal unto the children of God the things thatGod has hid within His Word?) for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. (This means that no man on their own wisdom can understand the spiritual truths within the Word of God. BUt the children of God can because....) 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual (this is how the Holy Spirit teaches, when we compare spiritual with spiritual. Not literal with literal. Not historical with historical). 14 But the natural man (he which is unsaved and does not have the Spirit of God) receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him(spiritual truths from the Word of God are foolishness unto the natural minded man): neither can he know them, (why can't the natural minded man understand spiritual truths from the Bible?) because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual (the true children of God) judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? (No man) But we have the mind of Christ (and this is the only reason we canunderstand spiritual truths, because we have become saved).

And this is exactly what Romans 9 is about. God chose the method of salvation. It’s not being born Jewish (9:6-7) but through Isaac instead of Ishmael. This isn’t all physical descendants of Isaac because the choice then gets split between Jacob and Esau. This is about the Messianic lineage as God’s way to show compassion, not some other method (be that ethnicity, following a bunch of rules, or God just deciding who He’ll bring to Heaven and who He’ll send to Hell).

The only method of salvation is laid out here, which was already covered:
Romans 10:17 (KJV 1900)
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

So, let's go ahead and take a look at Romans 9 to see if it's only focusing on a messianic lineage, or if the salvation of individual people by the sheer mercy of God is also in view.

Romans 9:1–24 (KJV 1900)
I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, 2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. 3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

God, through Paul, is declaring the curse God placed on the Nation of Israel for their constant rebellion against God since God delivered them from slavery. God finally delievered them once for all (with no more delieverance) to the king of Babylon. And eventually, they came under Roman rule, which was their position when the 4 gospels were recorded. Paul is declaring that he wishes that he could be acursed for them. This of course is a perfect picture of the gospel with Paul representing Christ and Israel representing the elect. But, everything that they went through and all the promises God made unto them, what happened to that? Well, the next verses answer that:


6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

The seed of course is Christ. Through Isaac (not Ishmael, Abraham's firstborn) Christ was ordained to be born. But we have to be careful how we read this because the Bible refers to "the seed of Abraham" in two ways, physically and spiritually. So, through Isaac's physical seed (lineage) Christ physically came. But Abraham's seed is spiritually a reference to Christ and to all those who have become saved (Gal 3:16 & 29).

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God

Why are children of God being mentioned here? It's because they have everything to do with the seed which is Christ.
But not with any physical seed, but spiritual seed. This means that physical lineage has nothing to do with becoming a true child of God. This includes Abraham's physical lineage all the way to Christ. How can we be sure? Because all throughout the Old Testament, many who were not Jews not decendants of Isaac side, became saved.:

but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Since the context of verse 8 associates the children of God with the promise of the seed (which is Christ) now we have every right to view the proceeding verses in light of the seed applying to both, Christ physically and the true believers spiritually.

9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. 10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

Remember, God is explaining how the children of promise are counted for the seed. And God is going to demonstrate how this happened spiritually by using earthly physical examples to do it. This follows suit with the way God wrote the Bible. He tells us that these two individuals (Jacob and Esau) not yet being born, neither doing anything good or evil (like rejecting God by selling his birthright), this was not a factor in God's purpose of election.


12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

God's love is directly associated with his work of atonement and his hatred toward Esau demonstrates that he did not atone for everyone's sins. It's important to also understand that these 2 unborn babies, represent 2 nations and 2 manner of people (Gen 25:23).
And while we can follow their lineage historically, we must remember that the Bible is a spiritual book with spiritual truth hidden within the historical text. So, when we search the Bible, we make the connection that the true children of God (those who were loved) are also identified as a nation (a holy nation) . The same is true of those whom Esau represents, the wicked of the world whose sins Christ did not atone for. These are identified as a crooked and perverse nation (Phil 2:15). So, just as God made a sovereign choice between two babies, not based on anything good or evil on their part, but acording to God's own purpose in election, the same truth applies spiritually in salvation. This is why the following verses speak of God's mercy on those whom he has chosen, as well as his vessels of glory prepared unto glory (to be glorified). This truth is very offensive to those who insist on free will unto salvation, so God asks questions on their behalf and answers them.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Why is God mentioning his mercy and compassio, which has everything to do with salvation, if this is only speaking of only a genealogical lineage to Christ? The answer is that it most certainly is speaking of God's election unto salvation through the mercy of God upon whosoever He chose to have mercy on and not based on any persons will or effort. This is the very reason he chose 2 fetuses as an example of this.


16 So then it (God's election unto salvation) is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

The next verse proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that genealogy is no longer in view because God uses Pharaoh as his example of what he meant by what he just said regarding his mercy and compassion. The context shifted into salvation many verses ago.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, (for what reason did God establish the most powerful earthly ruler of that time?) that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth (It was because through Pharaoh, and the plagues that God would bring upon him, that God's name would be glorified. So, God intended to destroy Pharaoh, and he did so by continuing to harden his heart, meaning, by unrestraining Pharaoh's sinful heart to rebell against God. And so God contrasts those whom he has mercy on with those whom he doesn't). 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Now comes the complaint.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

As with Pharaoh as our example, why would God find fault with him if Pharaoh could not resist the will of God? The same reason he finds fault with every other wicked person, because of their own sin. God did not choose to pay for their sins, so he's holding them accountable to pay for their own sins. And God's reply is his sovereignty:


20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter (GOD) power over the clay, of the same lump (like Jacob and Esau were from the same womb) to make one vessel (a vessel is a person) unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Part 3......

[The Tanager]

General points and passages not involving proorizo (i.e., predetermine)

I was going to wait for your part 3, but it’s been a couple of days and there wasn’t much left to respond to from my posts, so I’m responding to your first 2 parts now.

So, this is clearly speaking of predestination unto salvation before the world began. And we can't be the ones to dictate how God has laid out his salvation program and say, "If it were predestination, we wouldn’t even need to spiritually hear; we are just changed by God’s choice."

Thank you for the time you’ve taken into crafting your response and listening to mine. I really appreciate it. Now, both of us are explaining how we think God laid out his salvation program, not just me. I’ve shared why I think this passage clearly isn’t speaking of predestination unto individual salvation; you’ve shared why you think it is speaking of that. We are both trying to apply logic and good hermeneutics. So, yes, we can try to think through these things and conclude that, on the individual election doctrine, the “hearing the gospel” is really just an illusion, since the actual cause of their salvation is God’s choice before they even existed. This isn’t me dictating to God how things have to be, but trying to understand how God dictated things have to be. You are doing the same.

If anyone has trusted in the fact that they decided to believe in Jesus to become saved, then they are trusting in a works gospel that could've never saved. This is especially sad because the same individuals who firmly believe that works (obedience to any commandmet of the Bible) did not save, are trusting in a work they themselves did by deciding to believe and so become "saved".

Why is accepting a gift a work?

1 John 3:23 (KJV 1900)
And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

To believe in Jesus Christ is a commandment, just as it is to love one another. If no one ever became saved by loving one another (by keeping this commandment which is a work of the law) then why is believing any different of a comamndment? A commandment is a commandment, and trusting in any good work we have done never resulted in salvation. The Bible gives us plenty of evidence that making a concious decision to believe in Jesus Christ did not result in salvation. The key to believing, without it being a work of the law that we are trusting to have saved us, is in the heart.

Why do you treat believing in Jesus and loving one another as two separate commands in this passage? The verse says this is his commandment (singular).

Acts 8:37 (KJV 1900)
And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

And this gets into the condition of the heart of man. And it was never with the wicked heart of stone that man had by which they could decide to believe and make their stony heart a true living heart. No, the living heart had to come first before one could believe with all their heart (their whole heart).

Remember, being born again was never the result of man's own will, but only of God's.

In Ezekiel, what is the new heart said to do? It will make it so we can follow God’s wisdom. It’s about living how we ought, not about an initial moment of salvation.

John 1:12–13 (KJV 1900)
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (is this free will? Well, if one stops here they can claim that, but it wouldn't be true because of what the next verse says): 13 Which were born (meaning, born again), not of blood (not of bloodline), nor of the will of the flesh(not by man's desire), nor of the will of man (not by man's own effort), but of God
(But were born again/begotten by the will of God).

There are two separate parts to that sentence. (1) Those who receive (2) get the right of becoming God’s children. Believing clarifies (1), while the ‘God’s will versus man’s will’ modifies (2). Your interpretation seems to have the ‘God’s will versus man’s will’ talking about (1). Why?

James 1:18 (KJV 1900)
Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Why do you think this is specifically about individual election? The context is about how, during times of trial, we can want to turn to sin to escape the suffering. But James is saying that if God is allowing this trial, then He is using it for our good (v. 17). God started the work in us and it will spread beyond us (v. 18). God hasn’t abandoned them. Stick with it.

[The Tanager]

Passages involving proorizo (i.e., predetermine)

1. Acts 4:28

We’ve agreed this isn’t about individual salvation

2-3. Romans 8-10

I agree that suffering is part of the context, but it's not the whole context. The other part of the context is who the suffering is specifically for. That is the elect, and how they became the elect.

Romans 8:28–37 (KJV 1900)
And we know that all things (like the weakness and sufferings mentioned earlier) work together for good (for who?) to them that love God (now the context has shifted to focus on the elect), to them who are the called according to his purpose (so the purpose of God here is not focusing on any suffering but on the elect themselves. And now God continues to speak about the elect and how they became the elect).

He talks about salvation, but in relation to the larger context of suffering. Verse 31 asks who can be against us, which is about the suffering that is against them. God didn’t even spare Jesus from suffering (32). Yes, that suffering was for our salvation, but the focus of that verse is not that but “how will he not also, along with him, freely give us all things?” Yes, you are suffering, but God will give you all you need. These sufferings don’t mean they aren’t elect or justified (33), they don’t mean they are condemned (34)...which shows those who think troubles are a sign of God’s displeasure are wrong. In fact, the resurrection is a sign that God loves in spite of allowing suffering. Jesus is praying for us in the midst of our sufferings (34).

All the things that Paul says could separate them from Christ’s love (35) are related to suffering. If the key focus was salvation here, then one would expect a list that extends beyond suffering. This shows the focus is suffering, not salvation. Then Paul says that their suffering is for the sake of others via a quote from Psalm 44:22 (36). Paul is saying they aren’t going to be destroyed, but that even in these sufferings our victory is complete (37) because God loves us (39).

Onto chapter 9…

9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. 10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

Remember, God is explaining how the children of promise are counted for the seed. And God is going to demonstrate how this happened spiritually by using earthly physical examples to do it. This follows suit with the way God wrote the Bible. He tells us that these two individuals (Jacob and Esau) not yet being born, neither doing anything good or evil (like rejecting God by selling his birthright), this was not a factor in God's purpose of election.

This is where we seem to diverge in Romans 9. Verse 9 is talking about the promise, not the children of promise. In verse 7, it is through the Messiah (Isaac not Ishmael) that Abraham’s seed will be counted (v. 7). Being a child of promise rather than a child of the flesh means spiritually joining the promised physical seed rather than being a descendant of Isaac. Jacob/Esau is then another example of the promise, not a change to being an example of the children of promise and their individual salvation.

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

God's love is directly associated with his work of atonement and his hatred toward Esau demonstrates that he did not atone for everyone's sins. It's important to also understand that these 2 unborn babies, represent 2 nations and 2 manner of people (Gen 25:23).
And while we can follow their lineage historically, we must remember that the Bible is a spiritual book with spiritual truth hidden within the historical text. So, when we search the Bible, we make the connection that the true children of God (those who were loved) are also identified as a nation (a holy nation) . The same is true of those whom Esau represents, the wicked of the world whose sins Christ did not atone for. These are identified as a crooked and perverse nation (Phil 2:15).

No, God’s love is directly associated with choosing Jacob for the Messianic line and the hatred is not choosing Esau for it. It’s about the promised One, not about atoning for Jacob’s sins and not Esau’s. Genesis 25:23 is about the two nations that will come from Jacob and Esau, not about saved and unsaved categories. There is nothing, contextually, in that passage that refers to individual salvation and damnation.

Your approach here seems to turn to a kind of secret code deciphering that we are not called to do in the Bible. Yes, we are meant to dig deep to find truth (that’s always been the Jewish way, instead of the hyper literalism of some recent Christian groups), but it’s through clear connections, not just choosing that some person/event/passage secretly symbolizes this other truth we believe. If the context doesn’t make the connection, then we shouldn’t either. Phil 2:15 has no connections, contextually, to Jacob and Esau as symbolizing the saved and unsaved.

So, just as God made a sovereign choice between two babies, not based on anything good or evil on their part, but acording to God's own purpose in election, the same truth applies spiritually in salvation.

If the text says it applies to individual election, then we can go with it, but if not, we can’t. You want to read that view into every text and your spiritualizing hermeneutic accommodates that, but it also allows for other, opposing views, to be read into texts because there is no way to adjudicate between the vague connections you pull together and the vague connections that, say, a panentheist will pull together to say we are all part of God. I’ve had this same discussion point with one of them on this board who used the same move you did.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Why is God mentioning his mercy and compassio, which has everything to do with salvation, if this is only speaking of only a genealogical lineage to Christ? The answer is that it most certainly is speaking of God's election unto salvation through the mercy of God upon whosoever He chose to have mercy on and not based on any persons will or effort. This is the very reason he chose 2 fetuses as an example of this.

Paul has compared two ways people think one becomes a child of God: physical descent and through the promised Messiah. In verse 14, he addresses those who say God is unrighteous for choosing the Messianic route; it’s supposed to be about being born a Jew. God has the right to have mercy on non-Jews, however (15). This fits perfectly. Nothing prior has shifted the discussion to individual election; it’s all been about comparing two options people believed led to becoming a child of God. God gets to decide the method, not humans (16). This is why he chose the Isaac and Jacob examples and said what he did about them.

The next verse proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that genealogy is no longer in view because God uses Pharaoh as his example of what he meant by what he just said regarding his mercy and compassion. The context shifted into salvation many verses ago.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, (for what reason did God establish the most powerful earthly ruler of that time?) that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth (It was because through Pharaoh, and the plagues that God would bring upon him, that God's name would be glorified. So, God intended to destroy Pharaoh, and he did so by continuing to harden his heart, meaning, by unrestraining Pharaoh's sinful heart to rebell against God. And so God contrasts those whom he has mercy on with those whom he doesn't). 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

The context hasn’t shifted at all. That context is about the means of salvation, not individual salvation. The Pharaoh example doesn’t change this. The Pharaoh example is about showing mercy to Jew and Gentile (in contrast to the opponents’ view that physical descent as a Jew is what gets salvation).

Verse 17 quotes Exodus 9:16. Read that passage in context. Six plagues have occurred. God says he could have already destroyed Pharoah (v. 15) but He hasn’t done it yet. Why not? To show His strength so that his name will be declared in all the earth (16). Why does He want it to be declared in all the earth? Well, God gives them a way out of the coming seventh plague (19), which means God wants them to trust Him and obey. And some Egyptians (non-Jews) fear God and do it (20)! God is giving people more time to choose to follow Him. Because God has mercy on more than just the Jews (Rom 9:18) and He is allowed to do that. And He is allowed to patiently endure (harden) instead of destroying evil ones in order to allow more time for more people to accept His mercy.

Now comes the complaint.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

As with Pharaoh as our example, why would God find fault with him if Pharaoh could not resist the will of God? The same reason he finds fault with every other wicked person, because of their own sin. God did not choose to pay for their sins, so he's holding them accountable to pay for their own sins. And God's reply is his sovereignty:

Was God wrong for using Pharaoh this way, to show mercy to non-Jews (which is what his Jewish opponents are saying because they think salvation is about being born a Jew)? No. God gets to decide these kinds of things (20). God has endured with great patience Pharaoh’s disobedience (22) for the vessels of mercy. [Paul, by the way, returns to the “vessel” metaphor in 2 Tim 2:20ff as well, where he talks about changing from a dishonorable vessel to an honorable one.] Those who are “vessels of mercy” (which we become by being children of the promised Messiah) are prepared beforehand for glory (23), not just Jews but also Gentiles (24).

Romans 9 is all one very coherent argument against the “Jews only” camp. He then quotes Hosea and Isaiah about how non-Jews would be included. Why are Gentiles included but not some Israelites (30-31)? Because they pursued it by works instead of faith in the Messiah (33).

Onto chapter 10…

Then Paul continues in chapter 10 by speaking about the works-based Jewish view (versus just an ethnicity view). His rebuttal? Salvation is not about works. Is it about God’s predestined choice of individual election? No, Paul doesn’t say that. He says salvation is by confessing and believing in Jesus and His death and resurrection on our behalf (10:9). He obviously doesn’t include this as a work; it’s something different.

Then comes the talk about how we need to send people to preach the message so that they can hear it and believe (14-15). Unfortunately, some will reject this (16) and yet God keeps holding out His hands to these people who are rejecting Him (21). Why would God do that, if He has already chosen those who will hear when they hear the gospel message preached? In your view, those who reject the word of truth are non-elect, so it makes no sense for God to keep holding out hope that they will repent and turn to Him.

[The Tanager]

Passages involving proorizo (i.e., predetermine)

4-5. Ephesians 1

Of course it is. Just because the Jews were the first to have the gospel and be the stewards of the Word of God, doesn't mean they (as a collective group) were given the ability to become saved. Salvation was always the same from the day Adam sinned. It was always by grace. This is why throughout the Old Test. period, very few Jews (by comparison) were actually saved.

I agree; my point was different. I’ll pick that up in responding to your commentary on Ephesians 1 as a whole next.

While verses 13 & 14 of Ephesians 1 are indeed historically speaking about the inclusion of the faithful within the church at Ephesus, we have to ask, what they were included into. And that's what the preceeding context addresses:

I agree. Paul is writing to those faithful in Jesus and sends them grace and peace (v. 1) from God the Father and Jesus (v. 2). God has blessed those in Christ (v.3). God chose us before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless out of love (v. 4). At this point, nothing has been said for or against our two election views; both fit the verses. If your view is correct, “us” refers to individual salvation “choices”. If my view is correct, “us” refers to the group of people in Christ (or corporate salvation).

Verse 5 is a key verse in beginning to decide between the two views. It begins with an aorist participle dependent on the main verb in v. 4 (chose) and there are two ways to translate that word: (1) causally or (2) instrumentally. The causal sense would suggest God’s predestination of certain individuals caused his choice of them in history (your view). The instrumental sense would suggest the means by which God’s choice was accomplished by predestination (my view). In normal Greek syntax, an aorist participle following an aorist main verb is more likely to be instrumental than causal. Therefore, it is more likely that in saying “having predestined us”, Paul is saying God predestined the means of His choice, i.e., that God chose (from before the foundation of the world) that our adoption as children would come through the Messiah, not that God predestined the individuals that would be found in Christ.

Why did God choose that method? The good pleasure of his will. He could have chosen something else; He didn’t. This grace, of accepting us (redeeming us, forgiving our sins) through Jesus’ blood (the method, not individuals) is glorious and praiseworthy (6-7) God shared this mysterious wisdom with us (8-9) to gather all things in Christ at a specific time in history (10).

The translation of verse 11 here is difficult. In Christ, we either (a) also get an inheritance or (b) we are also claimed as God’s inheritance. I don’t think these ideas are that far off from each other, but the context is clear that this is something in addition to what was just talked about (being accepted, redeemed, forgiving). This thing is in addition to the conversion from being unsaved to being saved.

Then Paul talks about how the Jews were saved first when they set their hope on God’s promise of the Messiah (12), i.e., before the Messiah came, followed by Gentiles now being saved when they heard the gospel and believed (13). The passage doesn’t say the word of truth made it so that they could believe in the gospel; the word of truth is the gospel that they heard and believed. That is when they become the elect, not before the foundation of the world because of God’s arbitrary choice to save some and condemn others.

When the Jews set their hope on the coming Messiah or Gentiles believed in Christ after He came, they were marked with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit (13)...not when God chose them before the foundation of the world. The Spirit is the promise of the fullness to come, when the inheritance is made complete (14).

Not sure how Mark 16:9 is relevant to what I said. Could you elaborate? The topic here is on hearing which means that ones spiritual ears have been opened and is actively opened. The same is true for believing. Both of these took place because each elect was first risen from the dead. That took place only once.

In talking about Eph 1:13 you earlier claimed that “having heard” and “having believed” are aorist participles in the active tense and, therefore, that means it’s ongoing. Mark 16:9 is also an aorist participle in the active tense. Using your reasoning, Jesus’ resurrection would then have to be an ongoing resurrection, meaning it isn’t completed yet.

[The Tanager]

Passages involving proorizo (i.e., predetermine)

6. 1 Corinthians 2

Ultimately, the entire Bible has some aspect of the message of salvation woven through it. 1 Cor 2 speaks of the spirituality of the Word of God, in that while God recorded it primarily by way of actual historical accounts, the spiritual truths of salvation have been hidden within within those accounts. That's why this hidden wisdom is said to be in a mystery. This means that when the Word of God is read by the natural mind, all they see are historical truths and glean moral truths from it. But the spiritual truth is the hidden truth resserved for those who are perfect (meaning saved).

In 1 Cor 2, Paul tells the Corinthians that he came preaching a historical person, Jesus, who was historically crucified (v. 2) and resurrected. That is the wisdom Paul is talking about in the beginning. This isn’t something human wisdom thought up (6); it (Jesus crucified) was hidden in a mystery that God predestined. What did He predestine? Jesus crucified. That is directly talking about the means, not people’s individual salvation. The rulers of this age (Jews and maybe Romans as well) didn’t understand this method God prepared for us (8).

Then there is a shift somewhere in verses 9-10 to a wider point about the wisdom from God in general. The hidden wisdom up to this point has been the crucified Jesus only. The quote from Isaiah 64 could still be just about this or it could be the start of widening the point to various things God has prepared for those who love Him. How does God reveal these (plural)? By the Spirit, which searches all things (10). So, at least by this point, we are now talking about more things than just Jesus crucified. These things aren’t of human wisdom, but are from God. The unbeliever can’t understand these things because they are relying on human wisdom, not God’s wisdom (14). The believer can be lead into all of these wisdoms because they have the Spirit (15). Note that these are already believers, so we aren’t talking about that initial moment of salvation anymore, but other wisdom.

Paul continues (in chapter 3) to talk about how the Corinthians are still stuck on the basics. He isn’t calling them unsaved (he called them sanctified in Christ in 1 Cor 1:2); he’s talking about different truths (like the unity of the body and other things).