God created all things by Jesus Christ

[Stewardofthemystery]

This is another way to prove the identity of Jesus Christ the Son of God as being the very Word of God.

Notice…

Ephesians 3:9
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

And here….

Hebrews 1:2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

And here….

Hebrews 11:3
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

In the above 3 verses we see that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and the Word of God are the same, by which God created all things.

Peace and God bless

[Difflugia]

1) ἐν αὐτῷ ... commonly translated "in him"

You are saying that 1) may mean also "of his agency". Can you cite an example where that is the real translation of that preposition?

PS: I am asking for a real quotation where that preposition ἐν means "with the agency of" (or: BY), not for a "possible translation" based on a "weird interpretation".

"Certainly."

Herodotus 6.109.3:

‘ἐν σοὶ νῦν Καλλίμαχε ἐστὶ ἢ καταδουλῶσαι Ἀθήνας ἢ ἐλευθέρας ποιήσαντα μνημόσυνα λιπέσθαι ἐς τὸν ἅπαντα ἀνθρώπων βίον οἷα οὐδὲ Ἁρμόδιός τε καὶ Ἀριστογείτων λείπουσι.

One translation is:

“Callimachus, it is now in your hands to enslave Athens or make her free, and thereby leave behind for all posterity a memorial such as not even Harmodius and Aristogeiton left."

The phrase "it is now in your hands" is literally "it is now in you," which I bolded in the Greek above. It is within the personal power of Callimachus and his decision to make. It is "of his agency."

[JehovahsWitness]

PS: I am asking for a real quotation where that preposition ἐν means "with the agency of" (or: BY), not for a "possible translation" based on a "weird interpretation".

Emphasis MINE

A possible translation is what this discussion is about. Unless you are suggesting "by" (ἐν) as in agency and "through" (by means of) διά are not legitimate renditions of the Greek ( word and further reading studies below), your request is misplaced.

As to whether one believes an "interpretation" (not to be confused with a translational choice) is ..."weird", that is entirely subjective and essentially irrelevant.



FURTHER READING

Ev : word study : https://biblehub.com/greek/1722.htm

1:16 Absence of "from" = CREATOR/initiator (the use of the prepositions)
https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... s-116.html

Through DIA not by HUPO
https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... -emil.html

dia
https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... -post.html
http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebibl ... .htm#S1223

in him/through him
https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... sions.html

[Capbook]

In original Greek that is still "EV". Still "G1722".

DOES THE OPENING EXPRESSION IN COLOSSIANS 1v16 SUPPORT THE IDEA OF JESUS BEING THE CREATOR?

The opening line in Colossians 1v16a reads in the King James Version "For by him were all things created..." this might be understood by lead the English reader to think that he (Jesus) initiated Creation but is that what the Greek word used means? The original Greek word is EV, notice what the what Strong's has to say about this word...



So EV does not mean being responsible or the instigator of an action but literally it means being in the midway or middle position (for example between two extremes) So if you go to London "by train" this does not mean London created the train but rather that the train was the means by which you traveled from A to B. So rather than saying Jesus initiated creation, this part of the verse could read that Jesus was the means or the instrument by which Creation came about.

How can we know if this is the correct understanding of EV for this verse? By reading the rest of the verse where Paul repeats the same idea of Jesus role but uses an alternative word which can be rendered "through".

RELATED POSTS

Col 1v16 c Did Paul say the world was created by Jesus or through Jesus ?
viewtopic.php?p=1155051#p1155051

Where is Jesus right now?
viewtopic.php?p=1155042#p1155042

Before, you insist that "by" in Col 1:16 is #1223 DIA, as I've shown you the original Greek below, you abandon the dia argument. Why?

If the sentence is, "The house plan was created by Engineer John. Then who created the house plan? Is it Engr. John or not?

In original Greek that is still "EV". Still "G1722". Are you basing your Greek lexicon from NWT?

Col 1:16 ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ ἐκτίσθη τὰ πάντα, τὰ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς καὶ τὰ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, τὰ ὁρατὰ καὶ τὰ ἀόρατα, εἴτε θρόνοι, εἴτε κυριότητες εἴτε ἀρχαὶ εἴτε ἐξουσίαι· τὰ πάντα δι᾿ αὐτοῦ καὶ εἰς αὐτὸν ἔκτισται·

Col 1:16 οτι G3754 CONJ  εν G1722 PREP  αυτω G846 P-DSM  εκτισθη G2936 V-API-3S  τα G3588 T-NPN  παντα G3956 A-NPN  τα G3588 T-NPN  εν G1722 PREP  τοις G3588 T-DPM  ουρανοις G3772 N-DPM  και G2532 CONJ  τα G3588 T-NPN  επι G1909 PREP  της G3588 T-GSF  γης G1093 N-GSF  τα G3588 T-NPN  ορατα G3707 A-NPN  και G2532 CONJ  τα G3588 T-NPN  αορατα G517 A-NPN  ειτε G1535 CONJ  θρονοι G2362 N-NPM  ειτε G1535 CONJ  κυριοτητες G2963 N-NPF  ειτε G1535 CONJ  αρχαι G746 N-NPF  ειτε G1535 CONJ  εξουσιαι G1849 N-NPF  τα G3588 T-NPN  παντα G3956 A-NPN  δι G1223 PREP  αυτου G846 P-GSM  και G2532 CONJ  εις G1519 PREP  αυτον G846 P-ASM  εκτισται G2936 V-RPI-3S

[JehovahsWitness]

In original Greek that is still "EV". Still "G1722".

DOES THE OPENING EXPRESSION IN COLOSSIANS 1v16 SUPPORT THE IDEA OF JESUS BEING THE CREATOR?

The opening line in Colossians 1v16a reads in the King James Version "For by him were all things created..." this might be understood by lead the English reader to think that he (Jesus) initiated Creation but is that what the Greek word used means? The original Greek word is EV, notice what the what Strong's has to say about this word...



So EV does not mean being responsible or the instigator of an action but literally it means being in the midway or middle position (for example between two extremes) So if you go to London "by train" this does not mean London created the train but rather that the train was the means by which you traveled from A to B. So rather than saying Jesus initiated creation, this part of the verse could read that Jesus was the means or the instrument by which Creation came about.

How can we know if this is the correct understanding of EV for this verse? By reading the rest of the verse where Paul repeats the same idea of Jesus role but uses an alternative word which can be rendered "through".

RELATED POSTS

Col 1v16 c Did Paul say the world was created by Jesus or through Jesus ?
viewtopic.php?p=1155051#p1155051

Where is Jesus right now?
viewtopic.php?p=1155042#p1155042

In original Greek that is still "EV". Still "G1722".

The post above fully addresses the original greek "EV". Please re-read post 78 HERE viewtopic.php?p=1155148#p1155148


JW

[onewithhim]

1) ἐν αὐτῷ ... commonly translated "in him"

You are saying that 1) may mean also "of his agency". Can you cite an example where that is the real translation of that preposition?

PS: I am asking for a real quotation where that preposition ἐν means "with the agency of" (or: BY), not for a "possible translation" based on a "weird interpretation".

"Certainly."

Herodotus 6.109.3:

‘ἐν σοὶ νῦν Καλλίμαχε ἐστὶ ἢ καταδουλῶσαι Ἀθήνας ἢ ἐλευθέρας ποιήσαντα μνημόσυνα λιπέσθαι ἐς τὸν ἅπαντα ἀνθρώπων βίον οἷα οὐδὲ Ἁρμόδιός τε καὶ Ἀριστογείτων λείπουσι.

One translation is:

“Callimachus, it is now in your hands to enslave Athens or make her free, and thereby leave behind for all posterity a memorial such as not even Harmodius and Aristogeiton left."

The phrase "it is now in your hands" is literally "it is now in you," which I bolded in the Greek above. It is within the personal power of Callimachus and his decision to make. It is "of his agency."

"It is now in your hands" is also an acceptable translation. God gives Jesus the power and places creation in his hands. Everything is created through him.

[Capbook]

In original Greek that is still "EV". Still "G1722".

DOES THE OPENING EXPRESSION IN COLOSSIANS 1v16 SUPPORT THE IDEA OF JESUS BEING THE CREATOR?

The opening line in Colossians 1v16a reads in the King James Version "For by him were all things created..." this might be understood by lead the English reader to think that he (Jesus) initiated Creation but is that what the Greek word used means? The original Greek word is EV, notice what the what Strong's has to say about this word...



So EV does not mean being responsible or the instigator of an action but literally it means being in the midway or middle position (for example between two extremes) So if you go to London "by train" this does not mean London created the train but rather that the train was the means by which you traveled from A to B. So rather than saying Jesus initiated creation, this part of the verse could read that Jesus was the means or the instrument by which Creation came about.

How can we know if this is the correct understanding of EV for this verse? By reading the rest of the verse where Paul repeats the same idea of Jesus role but uses an alternative word which can be rendered "through".

RELATED POSTS

Col 1v16 c Did Paul say the world was created by Jesus or through Jesus ?
viewtopic.php?p=1155051#p1155051

Where is Jesus right now?
viewtopic.php?p=1155042#p1155042

In original Greek that is still "EV". Still "G1722".

The post above fully addresses the original greek "EV". Please re-read post 78 HERE viewtopic.php?p=1155148#p1155148


JW

Lexicon define "by" as in, on, at, with, by, among. "Through" is not one of them.
If the sentence goes this way, "The house plan was created by Engineer John. Then who created the house plan? Is it Engr. John or not?

NT:1722 en,
a preposition taking the dative after it;
Hebrew: b­-; Latin: in with the ablative;
English: in, on, at, with, by, among.
(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright © 2000, 2003, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

Colossians 1:16-17

[For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:] These two verses contain parts of the same subject. I shall endeavor to distinguish the statements of the apostle, and reason from them in such a way as the premises shall appear to justify, without appealing to any other scripture in proof of the doctrine which I suppose these verses to vindicate.
Four things are here asserted:
1. That Jesus Christ is the Creator of the universe; of all things visible and invisible; of all things that had a beginning, whether they exist in time or in eternity.
2. That whatsoever was created was created FOR himself; that he was the sole end of his own work.
3. That he was prior to all creation, to all beings, whether in the visible or invisible world.
4. That he is the preserver and governor of all things; for by him all things consist.
Now, allowing Paul to have understood the terms which he used, he must have considered Jesus Christ as being truly and properly God. ( Clarke's )

[JehovahsWitness]

In original Greek that is still "EV". Still "G1722".

DOES THE OPENING EXPRESSION IN COLOSSIANS 1v16 SUPPORT THE IDEA OF JESUS BEING THE CREATOR?

The opening line in Colossians 1v16a reads in the King James Version "For by him were all things created..." this might be understood by lead the English reader to think that he (Jesus) initiated Creation but is that what the Greek word used means? The original Greek word is EV, notice what the what Strong's has to say about this word...



So EV does not mean being responsible or the instigator of an action but literally it means being in the midway or middle position (for example between two extremes) So if you go to London "by train" this does not mean London created the train but rather that the train was the means by which you traveled from A to B. So rather than saying Jesus initiated creation, this part of the verse could read that Jesus was the means or the instrument by which Creation came about.

How can we know if this is the correct understanding of EV for this verse? By reading the rest of the verse where Paul repeats the same idea of Jesus role but uses an alternative word which can be rendered "through".

RELATED POSTS

Col 1v16 c Did Paul say the world was created by Jesus or through Jesus ?
viewtopic.php?p=1155051#p1155051

Where is Jesus right now?
viewtopic.php?p=1155042#p1155042

In original Greek that is still "EV". Still "G1722".

The post above fully addresses the original greek "EV". Please re-read post 78 HERE viewtopic.php?p=1155148#p1155148


JW

Lexicon define "by" as in, on, at, with, by, among. "Through" is not one of them....

ZOOM in to Strongs and look again.


JW

[Capbook]

In original Greek that is still "EV". Still "G1722".

DOES THE OPENING EXPRESSION IN COLOSSIANS 1v16 SUPPORT THE IDEA OF JESUS BEING THE CREATOR?

The opening line in Colossians 1v16a reads in the King James Version "For by him were all things created..." this might be understood by lead the English reader to think that he (Jesus) initiated Creation but is that what the Greek word used means? The original Greek word is EV, notice what the what Strong's has to say about this word...



So EV does not mean being responsible or the instigator of an action but literally it means being in the midway or middle position (for example between two extremes) So if you go to London "by train" this does not mean London created the train but rather that the train was the means by which you traveled from A to B. So rather than saying Jesus initiated creation, this part of the verse could read that Jesus was the means or the instrument by which Creation came about.

How can we know if this is the correct understanding of EV for this verse? By reading the rest of the verse where Paul repeats the same idea of Jesus role but uses an alternative word which can be rendered "through".

RELATED POSTS

Col 1v16 c Did Paul say the world was created by Jesus or through Jesus ?
viewtopic.php?p=1155051#p1155051

Where is Jesus right now?
viewtopic.php?p=1155042#p1155042

In original Greek that is still "EV". Still "G1722".

The post above fully addresses the original greek "EV". Please re-read post 78 HERE viewtopic.php?p=1155148#p1155148


JW

Lexicon define "by" as in, on, at, with, by, among. "Through" is not one of them....

ZOOM in to Strongs and look again.


JW

Yes it has, but Clark understand this verses, Jesus Christ is the Creator of all things.

Colossians 1:16-17
Creation is the proper work of an infinite, unlimited, aud unoriginated Being; possessed of all perfections in their highest degrees; capable of knowing, willing, and working infinitely, unlimitedly, and without control: and as creation signifies the production of being where all was absolute nonentity, so it necessarily implies that the Creator acted of and from himself; for as, previously to this creation, there was no being, consequently he could not be actuated by any motive, reason, or impulse, without himself; which would argue there was some being to produce the motive or impulse, or to give the reason. Creation, therefore, is the work of him who is unoriginated, infinite, unlimited, and eternal. But Jesus Christ is the Creator of all things, therefore Jesus Christ must be, according to the plain construction of the apostle's words, truly and properly GOD. (Clarke's)

[myth-one.com]

Clark understand these verses, Jesus Christ is the Creator of all things.

Colossians 1:16-17
Creation is the proper work of an infinite, unlimited, aud unoriginated Being; possessed of all perfections in their highest degrees; capable of knowing, willing, and working infinitely, unlimitedly, and without control: and as creation signifies the production of being where all was absolute nonentity, so it necessarily implies that the Creator acted of and from himself; for as, previously to this creation, there was no being, consequently he could not be actuated by any motive, reason, or impulse, without himself; which would argue there was some being to produce the motive or impulse, or to give the reason. Creation, therefore, is the work of him who is unoriginated, infinite, unlimited, and eternal. But Jesus Christ is the Creator of all things, therefore Jesus Christ must be, according to the plain construction of the apostle's words, truly and properly GOD. (Clarke's)

The birth of Jesus Christ can be well documented to have occurred about 2024 years ago.

If all things were created by Jesus, and Jesus was created 2024 years ago, then the earth could not be more than 2024 years of age.

How does Clarke explain that?

And according to the God inspired scriptures, The Word created everything -- not Jesus Christ:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (John 1:1-3)

Clarke needs to pray for God to open the scriptures to his understanding, believing God would do so, then read them again.

Also, Jesus was not God. Jesus was a man:

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

How could Clarke have missed this verse?

[JehovahsWitness]

In original Greek that is still "EV". Still "G1722".

DOES THE OPENING EXPRESSION IN COLOSSIANS 1v16 SUPPORT THE IDEA OF JESUS BEING THE CREATOR?

The opening line in Colossians 1v16a reads in the King James Version "For by him were all things created..." this might be understood by lead the English reader to think that he (Jesus) initiated Creation but is that what the Greek word used means? The original Greek word is EV, notice what the what Strong's has to say about this word...



So EV does not mean being responsible or the instigator of an action but literally it means being in the midway or middle position (for example between two extremes) So if you go to London "by train" this does not mean London created the train but rather that the train was the means by which you traveled from A to B. So rather than saying Jesus initiated creation, this part of the verse could read that Jesus was the means or the instrument by which Creation came about.

How can we know if this is the correct understanding of EV for this verse? By reading the rest of the verse where Paul repeats the same idea of Jesus role but uses an alternative word which can be rendered "through".

RELATED POSTS

Col 1v16 c Did Paul say the world was created by Jesus or through Jesus ?
viewtopic.php?p=1155051#p1155051

Where is Jesus right now?
viewtopic.php?p=1155042#p1155042

In original Greek that is still "EV". Still "G1722".

The post above fully addresses the original greek "EV". Please re-read post 78 HERE viewtopic.php?p=1155148#p1155148


JW

Lexicon define "by" as in, on, at, with, by, among. "Through" is not one of them....

ZOOM in to Strongs and look again.


JW

Yes it has, but Clark understand this verses, Jesus Christ is the Creator of all things.

I. Don't . Care.