The Exodus! Did it Really Happen?

[POI]

The Bible claims an Exodus took place. Many state it was not an actual event. Since the Bible makes a positive claim, in that an 'Exodus" took place, do we have positive evidence to support the claim?

For Debate:

1. Outside the Bible saying so, do we have evidence? If so, what?

2. If it should turn out that the Exodus did not take place, does this fact sway the Christian believer's position at all? Or, does it not matter one way or another?

[POI]

I already presented my evidence for the early date.

We are now just going in circles. The early date presents a very large timeline problem. The 'Hyksos' were expelled from Egypt around 1535BCE. From there, the 'Hyksos' would have wandered the desert for 40 years. Even though this is not documented anywhere, nor is there any evidence to suggest such a massive migration happened, besides the claim from the Bible alone. Which means the 'Hyksos' were done wandering around 1495 BCE. However, a large number of 'Israelites' were not entering the Canaan region until about 1250BCE. Thus, we have a giant gap missing. Giant enough to fit in the entire historical existence of the U.S.

what exactly is your point?

The scholarly conclusion is the 'Hyksos' are not the Biblically claimed 'Israelites.'

The Bible as well doesn't say "millions" were roaming the desert either. It's only an inference. But even if it was millions, it's not unreasonable given the Hyksos were so populous they were able to rule Egypt.

Then if the number is in the millions, then where is the evidence of their 40-year wandering escapade, prior to their arrival in 'Canaan'?

OK, here are some sources on the population estimates during that time:

My point here was missed again. If you choose to live by the sword, then you must also die by the sword. You stated "ChatGPT of course", when I asked where you got your information? The metaphorical 'sword' here is ChatGPT. You would be perfectly fine with the ChatGPT answers given for your 6 questions. And yet, when we ask the ultimate question, ChatGPT says the Hyksos are not the claimed Biblical 'Israelites'.

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I skipped some of your responses, as they do not seem relevant to my position.

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It matters because if there is no viable alternative explanation, then the only explanation that does fit the evidence is the most reasonable to accept.

The viable and logical alternative is the Hyksos are not the claimed Israelites. Even most believers seem to agree. The timeline alone raises a massive red flag. And this is before we address much of anything else.

I haven't even made any supernatural claims, so don't see your point.

One of the primary reasons this topic exists is because even the mundane natural claims look to be in error. Pretty damming for the believer. Which is why we see such a lack of response from believers, and the ones that do respond, have very little to offer. Which is why you must find a way to link another tribe, from a different timeline.

I don't see how they are similar.

You stated "Because it would make no sense. At a minimum, they'd have to believe it was all true, even if it was not true. Why would they willingly base their belief, traditions, practices, and customs on what they know to be false?"

For some, if not all, of the same reasons Mormons and Scientologists do.

We have over a 3000 year tradition of the Passover Seder that is practiced by Jews every year all around the world.

You took the words right out of my mouth, when I also stated one of the reason(s) is 'tradition.'

Moses is believed to be an actual person that delivered them out of slavery.

People believe a lot of things. This means nothing, in and of itself.

[A Freeman]

Yes, the exodus really happened, exactly as recorded in second book of The Law, which bears its name.

People can search the world over for evidence of what they believe or didn't believe happened ~3500 years ago. Most are looking for an excuse not to believe "The Book" that serves not only as the most accurate historical record we have of that time period, but also provides us with The Law and the prophecies which provide true freedom and accurately foretell future events, sometimes hundreds and even thousands of years in advance.

Over two-thirds of The Bible (which literally means "The Book") is prophecy, >99% of which has already been fulfilled in exact and minute detail. Only a complete fool would look at that track record and doubt its veracity or that the remaining <1% of the prophecies that remain won't likewise be fulfilled in exact and minute detail.

But instead of focusing on our own shortcomings, and the tyranny and injustice that we find ourselves living in today, and that we've had the answers to solving every problem, on an individual, state and global level all along, the most evil among us are fixated on how they can "prove" the Bible is somehow wrong, instead of putting its principles and teachings into practice to better everyone's lives.

The following is an excerpt from the prologue to the 1956 film "The Ten Commandments" by Cecil B. DeMille, which he delivered personally:

"Ladies and gentlemen, young and old, this may seem an unusual procedure, speaking to you before the picture begins, but we have an unusual subject: the story of the birth of FREEDOM.

The story of Moses.

As many of you know, the Holy Bible omits some 30 years of Moses' life, from the time he was a three-month-old baby and was found in the bulrushes by Bithiah, the daughter of Pharaoh, and adopted into the court of Egypt until he learned that he was Hebrew and killed the Egyptian.

To fill in those missing years, we turned to ancient historians such as Philo and Josephus.

Philo wrote at the time that Jesus the Nazarite walked the Earth, and Josephus wrote some 50 years later and watched the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans (exactly as Jesus prophesied ~40 years in advance of its occurrence).

These historians had access to documents long since destroyed, or perhaps lost, like the Dead Sea Scrolls.

The theme of this picture is whether men are to be ruled by God's Law, or whether they are to be ruled by the whims of a dictator like Rameses.

Are men the property of the state, or are they free souls under God?

This same battle continues throughout the world today.

[POI]

[Replying to A Freeman in post #762]

Nothing in this response looks to address the debate Q's. Here they are again, for your convenience:

For Debate:

1. Outside the Bible saying so, do we have evidence? If so, what?

2. If it should turn out that the Exodus did not take place, does this fact sway the Christian believer's position at all? Or, does it not matter one way or another?

[Clownboat]

Yes, the exodus really happened, exactly as recorded in second book of The Law, which bears its name.

Neato! Please supply evidence for this claim.
I prophecy that you will supply me with the claim itself, you will pretend that the claim is the evidence and you will not provide evidence for the claim.

People can search the world over for evidence of what they believe or didn't believe happened ~3500 years ago. Most are looking for an excuse not to believe "The Book"

Here you simply accuse people of having an emotional reaction to a book, instead of a rational criticism of it. Excuses are not needed to disbelieve many things in this book. Take Saints getting out of their graves and walking the streets of Jerusalem. No excuse is needed to not believe this claim and this is just one outlandish claim out of many.

Over two-thirds of The Bible (which literally means "The Book") is prophecy,

Where did you pull that one from!?

>99% of which has already been fulfilled in exact and minute detail.

And this one!?

Only a complete fool would look at that track record and doubt its veracity or that the remaining <1% of the prophecies that remain won't likewise be fulfilled in exact and minute detail.

Your poisoning of the well is noted and not respected as this is a debate forum.

But instead of focusing on our own shortcomings,

Projections perhaps?

the most evil among us are fixated on how they can "prove" the Bible is somehow wrong,

Something that has not been shown to be correct does not need to be proven wrong. If you don't believe me, just ask yourself why you are so dead set on proving Santa to be false. When you realize you don't have this need, please reflect on your false accusation above.

<snipped some odd and very off topic statements>

[A Freeman]

[A Freeman]

https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/dai ... r-fiction/

https://biblearchaeology.org/research/c ... d-the-exod

https://www.gotquestions.org/evidence-o ... xodus.html

[Clownboat]

Why are you posting YouTube videos in place of addressing debate questions?
If there is something of value in these videos, please start with what you find to be the most relevant so we can discuss it.

Until then, do you think we will ever find evidence that millions wandered the Sinai as told in the Bible story? Firepits, graves, pottery... anything?

[A Freeman]

The title of this thread is:

The Exodus! Did it Really Happen?

When someone presents actual evidence of the Exodus that has been gathered, the new question becomes "why did you post that?", proving they don't really care about the answer to the question, only that they've been deprived of the opportunity to argue total nonsense yet again.

When someone has completely unrealistic expectations of what evidence there should actually be for something that happened over ~3500 years ago, and believes they are "placing their trust in science" by accepting wildly inaccurate dating methods, and the circular "reasoning" offered up by so-called Egyptologists, there is no amount of evidence that would suffice.

On the other hand, for those who have actually studied The Law/Commandments, Statutes and Judgments that were given to Moses and the Israelite people ~3500 years ago at Mt. Horeb in Sinai, and can see the pure logic in it, and have spent time in and around human courts to personally witness the irrational judgments, pure hatred for truth and the injustice that is meted out on a daily basis, it should be self-evident that every single curse/punishment that is prophesied to happen to those who reject The Law our Creator has given us has been fulfilled in exact and minute detail.

Further yet, there are prophecies beginning in Genesis, and continuing through Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy, describing the Israelite people TODAY and the nation and company of nations that they would become. No one, other than the British people*, have grown into a “multitude in the midst of the earth” AND become “a multitude (Commonwealth) of nations” AND have a monarchy that rules over multiple nations.

*including America, Ireland, Scotland, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, South Africa, Northern France, Celtic Spain, Belgium, the Netherlands, Scandinavia and the Baltic states and Gibraltar, i.e. the English-speaking nations of the world.

There are at least 95 irrefutable scriptural "marks" of the True People Israel today, i.e. the descendants of those who wandered through the wilderness of sin for 40 years, recorded at the following link for everyone's benefit:-

https://gibraltar-messenger.net/jahtrut ... ue-israel/

How could this information have been "encoded" into the Biblical accounts leading up to, including and following the Exodus, describing people that would live over 3000 years later, unless the entire account is accurate?

This is the insurmountable difficulty, on top of the available archaeological evidence that has been gathered, that faces all those who doubt the Exodus actually occurred.

[A Freeman]

The excerpt below is from the previously posted link:

https://www.gotquestions.org/evidence-o ... xodus.html

Critics of the Bible have suggested there is no evidence of a mass Hebrew exodus from Egypt. The typical claim is that Egyptian records mention neither this event nor large slave populations, and there is a lack of bones or graves in the wilderness. Such criticisms are factually incorrect: there is archaeological evidence that corresponds to the Bible’s description of the exodus.

A Daunting Task

It’s important to realize that “proof” of ancient events is extraordinarily rare. Mountains of obvious evidence don’t typically survive three thousand years, even when the event itself is significant. It’s only reasonable to look for remnants, circumstantial evidence, collaborating artifacts, and perhaps some random documents. Of course, insisting that evidence must be found outside the Bible is, itself, an unfair bias. Scripture is part of ancient written records, whether skeptics appreciate it or not. For those not committed to rejecting such things out of hand, archaeological evidence favors a real, historical exodus of Israel from Egypt.

Examining evidence fairly means avoiding myths and poor assumptions. Pop culture is not historical evidence. For example, movies such as The Prince of Egypt and The Ten Commandments use the name Rameses for the Pharaoh of the exodus. However, Scripture never identifies Pharaoh using that name. Looking for explicit evidence of the exodus in connection with the reign of Rameses II is an attempt to verify a movie, not the Bible. Skeptics who assume the Bible speaks of Rameses are not only looking at the wrong sources but very possibly the wrong time period.

Cultures use different dating systems, not all of which are consistent. Even when there is ample evidence of an occurrence, it can be difficult for historians to know exactly what dates were involved. This is particularly true of Egyptian history, the record of which is erratic. Egyptians sometimes recorded rulers who reigned simultaneously as if they were consecutive, for example. Even experts in Egyptian archaeology would admit that dating anything using ancient Egyptian records requires an inflated level of tolerance.

[otseng]

We are now just going in circles. The early date presents a very large timeline problem. The 'Hyksos' were expelled from Egypt around 1535BCE. From there, the 'Hyksos' would have wandered the desert for 40 years. Even though this is not documented anywhere, nor is there any evidence to suggest such a massive migration happened, besides the claim from the Bible alone. Which means the 'Hyksos' were done wandering around 1495 BCE. However, a large number of 'Israelites' were not entering the Canaan region until about 1250BCE. Thus, we have a giant gap missing. Giant enough to fit in the entire historical existence of the U.S.

I'll address these in separate posts.

what exactly is your point?

The scholarly conclusion is the 'Hyksos' are not the Biblically claimed 'Israelites.'

Following up with the appeal to authority fallacy doesn't help your point.

Then if the number is in the millions, then where is the evidence of their 40-year wandering escapade, prior to their arrival in 'Canaan'?

I've addressed it here. But, if we want to go into that more, I can do that later.

If you choose to live by the sword, then you must also die by the sword. You stated "ChatGPT of course", when I asked where you got your information? The metaphorical 'sword' here is ChatGPT.

Where did I ever say ChatGPT was some authoritative source? Note that I've never used it in this thread until discussing population numbers. Whereas you've been repeatedly using it prior. ChatGPT is only like a search engine summary. Ultimately it should lead to a source behind what ChatGPT generates. And I've provided sources for the numbers in my previous post.

You would be perfectly fine with the ChatGPT answers given for your 6 questions. And yet, when we ask the ultimate question, ChatGPT says the Hyksos are not the claimed Biblical 'Israelites'.

And what I'm asking for is the evidence for the claims, not just what ChatGPT says.

It matters because if there is no viable alternative explanation, then the only explanation that does fit the evidence is the most reasonable to accept.

The viable and logical alternative is the Hyksos are not the claimed Israelites. Even most believers seem to agree. The timeline alone raises a massive red flag. And this is before we address much of anything else.

It's neither viable or logical or even an alternative. All you are doing is just disagreeing with my position. You're not providing an alternative theory of how to explain the 6 questions. As for the timeline, I'll go more in-depth in a separate post.

I haven't even made any supernatural claims, so don't see your point.

One of the primary reasons this topic exists is because even the mundane natural claims look to be in error.

Of course I'd disagree. But when I summarize my arguments, we'll see who has the most evidence to back their position.

People believe a lot of things. This means nothing, in and of itself.

More hand-waving. I'd say what is presented in the US Capitol would have more weight than you simply claiming the traditions started by the Exodus is similar to anything related to the Mormons or Scientologists.

Also, you have not addressed:

When ChatGPT fails, we can always get whatever answer we want or desire, if we search long enough

Then if you search long enough, you should be able to answer my six questions.