Did he or didn't he?

[Athetotheist]

And when Saul enquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her.
(1 Samuel 28:6-7)

So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it; and enquired not of the Lord
(1Chronicles 10:13-14)

How exactly are these to be reconciled?

[RBD]

[Replying to RBD in post #177]

Good point. But, now you're mistaking the judgment of works with prophecy.

Jesus' prophecy was by foreknowledge of works to be done, not by knowing the thoughts of Peter

You're contradicting yourself. You said that

God sees the thoughts and intents of the heart, whether for the good or evil. But he does not know what we will do, until we do it.

So according to you, Jesus couldn't have prophesied by "foreknowledge of works" to be done by Peter, because he wouldn't have had that foreknowledge.

False.

Jesus' foreknowledge of the work was not by Peter's thoughts, but by having foreknowledge of the work. If foreknowledge were only by thoughts, then no one would know anything sure enough to prophecy.

No one could prophecy Peter's own betrayal, when the Lord commended his faith in Jesus as the Christ of God.

Mat 16:16
And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Nor does God judge you forever by your unbelief today, when you may repent before the grave...

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to RBD in post #181]

Jesus' foreknowledge of the work was not by Peter's thoughts, but by having foreknowledge of the work.

You're still contradicting yourself.

You said that

he does not know what we will do, until we do it.

That means he doesn't have foreknowledge by thoughts OR by work.

[OneJack]

God does not know nor judge anyone by good or bad intents alone, but by works done.

Saying 'God does not know' means God would not be omniscient, and there would be something impossible to God. Where have you learned that notion from?

Nothing is impossible with God. What's impossible, is for God to know and judge someone apart from their works.

Gen 22:12
And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

Saying, ' But he does not know what we will do, until we do it' is a lie; God knows what way we will choose until the end and in what manner we will choose to meet our death. If God does not know them, then there is something impossible for God to know in advance.

[RBD]

[Replying to RBD in post #181]

Jesus' foreknowledge of the work was not by Peter's thoughts, but by having foreknowledge of the work.

You're still contradicting yourself.

You said that

he does not know what we will do, until we do it.

That means he doesn't have foreknowledge by thoughts OR by work.

Yes, He does. God knows all works of angels and men from the beginning, and does not know to judge angels and men by works, until the works are done.

I would explain the mystery of Go knowing all things from the beginning, and the Word observing to know all things when they come to pass, but why bother with you, right?

Jhn 3:12
If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

[RBD]

God does not know nor judge anyone by good or bad intents alone, but by works done.

Saying 'God does not know' means God would not be omniscient, and there would be something impossible to God. Where have you learned that notion from?

Nothing is impossible with God. What's impossible, is for God to know and judge someone apart from their works.

Gen 22:12
And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

Saying, ' But he does not know what we will do, until we do it' is a lie; God knows what way we will choose until the end and in what manner we will choose to meet our death. If God does not know them, then there is something impossible for God to know in advance.

God knows in the beginning all things that shall come to pass, because the Word observes all things coming to pass. When the Word knows by observation, God knows in the beginning.

Gen 22:12
And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

So soon as Christ the Word sees Abraham's work, so also God knows it in the beginning.

Preknowledge of what angels and men do, is not predetermination of what angels and men will do.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to RBD in post #184]

That means he doesn't have foreknowledge by thoughts OR by work.

Yes, He does. God knows all works of angels and men from the beginning, and does not know to judge angels and men by works, until the works are done.

You're still contradicting yourself.

You said that

God sees the thoughts and intents of the heart, whether for the good or evil. But he does not know what we will do, until we do it.

I would explain the mystery of Go knowing all things from the beginning, and the Word observing to know all things when they come to pass, but why bother with you, right?

What's the distinction between "God" and "the Word"?

[OneJack]

God does not know nor judge anyone by good or bad intents alone, but by works done.

Saying 'God does not know' means God would not be omniscient, and there would be something impossible to God. Where have you learned that notion from?

Nothing is impossible with God. What's impossible, is for God to know and judge someone apart from their works.

Gen 22:12
And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

Saying, ' But he does not know what we will do, until we do it' is a lie; God knows what way we will choose until the end and in what manner we will choose to meet our death. If God does not know them, then there is something impossible for God to know in advance.

God knows in the beginning all things that shall come to pass, because the Word observes all things coming to pass. When the Word knows by observation, God knows in the beginning.

Gen 22:12
And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

So soon as Christ the Word sees Abraham's work, so also God knows it in the beginning.

Preknowledge of what angels and men do, is not predetermination of what angels and men will do.

Whatever play on words you do, you can't change the fact that NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE WITH GOD. All things are possible with God.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to RBD in post #185]

So soon as Christ the Word sees Abraham's work

God knows in the beginning all things that shall come to pass, because the Word observes all things coming to pass. When the Word knows by observation, God knows in the beginning.

If you're saying that Jesus is "Christ the Word", you seem to be saying that when Jesus observes someone doing something, that observation is conveniently retconned back to the Beginning when God, who

does not know what we will do, until we do it

at the same time, does know what we will do before we do it.

The problem is that you still have God's knowledge of what we will do dependent on the Word observing what we do. So when Jesus tells Peter that he will deny Jesus three times, God cannot know that from the beginning because knowledge of it from the beginning depends on Jesus observing it, and Jesus hasn't observed it yet because Peter hasn't done it yet. Thus, at that point, you have knowledge of Peter's future action simultaneously known to God and not known to God, which violates the first law of existence: "A thing cannot both be and not be at the same time and in the same respect." Knowledge of Peter's denial from the beginning is thereby canceled out.

[RBD]

[Replying to RBD in post #184]

That means he doesn't have foreknowledge by thoughts OR by work.

Yes, He does. God knows all works of angels and men from the beginning, and does not know to judge angels and men by works, until the works are done.

You're still contradicting yourself.

You said that

God sees the thoughts and intents of the heart, whether for the good or evil. But he does not know what we will do, until we do it.

I would explain the mystery of God knowing all things from the beginning, and the Word observing to know all things when they come to pass, but why bother with you, right?

What's the distinction between "God" and "the Word"?

Two Persons: God creating all things in the beginning, and the Word watching all things from the beginning. So soon as the Word knows by watching today, God knows in the beginning.

The foreknowledge of God, is not by knowing before the Word watches it come to pass. Nor by predetermining everything coming to pass.

[RBD]

[Replying to RBD in post #185]

So soon as Christ the Word sees Abraham's work

God knows in the beginning all things that shall come to pass, because the Word observes all things coming to pass. When the Word knows by observation, God knows in the beginning.

If you're saying that Jesus is "Christ the Word", you seem to be saying that when Jesus observes someone doing something, that observation is conveniently retconned back to the Beginning when God, who

Remains connected, not reconnected. God's not a time traveler into the future, and then returns to report back at the beginning.

He's the God high above all things watching, and the God working in His own creation. He's eternal in Spirit and temporal on earth.

Jhn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.

Jhn 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

1Jo 4:2
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

The Creator is not just a nonparticipating observer like a spiritual wind, as some pagans and pseudo-Christians believe.

who does not know what we will do, until we do it

at the same time, does know what we will do before we do it.

Correct. If God were one Person alone, then He would create and only watch, and perhaps participate, but not know beforehand by having watched all things.

Isa 40:21
Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth? It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

God the Creator is in the beginning, and God the Word is watching, and God the Creator knows in the beginning the Word's tesimony:

Psa 19:7
The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Rev 19:10
For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

God is not omniscient because of the Persons of the Godhead; He is both in the beginning of creation, and watching unto the end.

Rev 22:13
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

What the Word sees He testifies, and the Creator knows in the beginning.

The problem is that you still have God's knowledge of what we will do dependent on the Word observing what we do.

Wrongly put again: He knows what we do dependent on observing what we do. He will know what we do dependent on observing what we will do.

1Co 2:7
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

1Co 4:5
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

The mystery of God is to know all things from the beginning, because He observes all things from the beginning unto the end. And so, God also charges us to judge the same as He: A person is known by judgment of works, not by thoughts alone. The thoughts and intents of the heart are made known by works.

The mystery is that the omniscient God, who does know all things from the beginning unto the end, does not already predetermine what every person will do from cradle to grave. Perfect foreknowledge is not perfect predetermination, because the foreknowledge is only by perfect observance and true testimony of Christ the Word.

Predeterminism of God with no free will of men, is the old pagan lie of Fatalism. It does not believe God creates all men and women in His own image: A free will person choosing to do their own works for good or evil. "It is already written in the stars" is astrological witchcraft.

So when Jesus tells Peter that he will deny Jesus three times, God cannot know that from the beginning because knowledge of it from the beginning depends on Jesus observing it, and Jesus hasn't observed it yet because Peter hasn't done it yet.

Unless of course the Word has already observed all things come to pass from beginning to end:

Isa 40:12
Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance?

Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Psa 90:4
For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

The Word from above not only spans all the earth in a measure of time, but also has spanned by observation all things to come as in a moment of time.

Jesus Christ is the Word made flesh, so that eternal One having seen all things come to pass, and He came to earth in the flesh to speak of all those things, that His Father knows by testimony from the beginning:

Jhn 3:31
He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.

The Word in heaven did not only see all things in heaven above, but also has already seen all things in heaven and earth unto the end. Therefore, Jesus' testimony was not only of things above, but also of all things forever to come:

Mat 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Hence he prophesied this heaven and earth passing away, but His words will never pass away, because they are the testimony of all things He has already seen to come.

Therefore, God in the beginning of creation, knows nothing before it's time in creation, that is observed by the Word; And the Word knows all things in it's times, because He has observed them all as in a single watch.

Conclusion: Although God knows all works, because He has seen them all, He still does not know the judgment of any person, until we do the work observed by Him.

The perfect Creator is also the perfectly just Judge, because His judgment is not without observation of what any person does, which is always by choice of our own free will...No person can say God does not know, because He has seen; And yet no person can say God is not righteous, because He only judges by the works He has seen.

Men and women are created in God's own image with His own free will, and the judgment of God is in the hands of every person's own chosen works.

1 Peter {1:15}
But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Thus, at that point, you have knowledge of Peter's future action simultaneously known to God and not known to God, which violates the first law of existence: "A thing cannot both be and not be at the same time and in the same respect." Knowledge of Peter's denial from the beginning is thereby canceled out.

The first law of natural existence does not rule the law of God the Word and eternal Spirit: "A work can both be known and not be done at the same time."

Prophecy of Peter's denial was not from the beginning, because it was not determined in the beginning. The prophecy was known by Jesus, who has already seen all things being done by every angel and person. And so, the prophecy certainly comes to pass, as He then sees it both from above and from the high priest's house. Prophecy of Scripture always comes to pass, because Scripture is what has come to pass seen and written.

The only way to 'cancel out' what the Word has already seen, is if Jesus in the flesh had changed His own works, so that Peter would not betray Him. And yet He did not, lest He also change His own works, and they not arrest and falsely accuse and crucify Him.

Jesus Christ could have changed any of His own works on earth, including calling on His angels from heaven, and coming down from the cross, or being recieved as king of Israel. But He did not, because it was necessary that He die for sins:

Jhn 10:17
Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.