The fulness of God

[placebofactor]

What do the Scriptures mean when they talk about Christ being in "fullness?" And what is better, the whole or the full? Let's begin with an examination of the Greek word for fullness, which pretty much appears to be self-explanatory. As a metaphor, the word fullness in the following verses means, in full measure, abundance, and completeness, such as leaving nothing more to be desired.

John 1:16, "Of His (Christ's) fullness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."

Ephesians 3:19, "To know the love of Christ, which passes knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fullness of God."

Here’s the question: “Does it prove that Jesus is not fully God, because the verse says that a Christian individual can be filled with the fullness of God?” Does this logic contain a common theological misunderstanding known as a category error or a confusion between participation and essence?

The word for "fullness" in these verses is “plērōma.” It does not mean "a part of something greater." It means the totality, the total, or the complete expression of what something is.

Ephesians 1:23, the Church is called the "fullness" of Christ, meaning it is the vessel that completes His expression on earth, not that the Church is Christ.

In Colossians 1:19 and 2:9, that in Christ, "All the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,” and in Colossians 2:9, "in Him all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.”

So, is the logic that "If I am filled with God’s fullness, am I God?" If mortals can be filled with the fullness of God, Ephesians 3:19, then Christ cannot be unique or fully God, because we share that status is incorrect for two reasons:

Jesus Christ is the Fullness by nature. He possesses the fullness of the Father intrinsically and eternally. He is the source. But believers are filled with the fullness of God derivatively. We receive grace from Him, John 1:16: "Of His fullness have all we received.”

I think of it like this: If a lightbulb is plugged into a power station, it receives electricity. But the bulb does not become the power station. The power station is the source; the bulb is the recipient. The bulb can be "filled" with light, but it does not possess the essence of the power plant.

Similarly, believers are filled with God’s life, love, and Spirit, but we do not become, in essence, God. We are sanctified participants, not divine creators.

Ephesians 3:19 is About Love, not Divinity. "To know the love of Christ... that ye might be filled with all the fullness of God."

This "fullness" refers to being complete in character and spiritual maturity, not becoming divine beings. It means we are filled with God’s attributes, his love, joy, and peace so that we lack nothing spiritually. It is about moral and spiritual completeness, not metaphysical identity.

When Scripture says Christ is in "fullness," it means He lacks nothing divine. He is not a "partial" God or an angel. He is the complete revelation of the Father. He embodies the totality of His Father’s nature. As Colossians 2:9 states, the entirety of God’s divine nature dwells in Him. And lastly, He is the source of our fullness. John 1:16 shows that our "fullness" is derived from His. He gives; we receive.

So, the Bible doesn’t say we become God because we’re filled with His fullness. It says we’re filled with His life, love, and Spirit, but only because Christ, who is God, shares it with us.

[Mr E]

[Replying to OneJack in post #50]

Exactly! The Son of God is flesh like us.

Ummm. No. The spirit gives birth to spirit, not flesh. This is explicitly stated in scripture- John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

You either don't understand that, or you outright deny it to be true-- which is it? Here's the math-- John 4:24 Jesus himself said- God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. Is it the spirit part you have trouble with, or just the truth?

Biblically speaking,

The angel of the Lord said unto Mary, 'The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.' And unto Joseph, 'Thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost, and she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins. [Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying], 'Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.'

Not even close. You didn't provide a scriptural reference because that is not a passage found in scripture at all. It's a mash up of two different passages, relating two different accounts at two different times to two different people as recorded by two different writers. But nice try. Are you simply in error with the quote, or are you purposefully deceptive?

Godlically speaking,

Thus, saith the Lord Jesus Christ:

'There is only one God, but like people, if a person has a name like Jose, he may also have nicknames like Juseng or Use. Similarly, God has different names - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - but He is still one Almighty God. He called Himself the Son when He became human to redeem people's sins, and He is called the Holy Spirit as a guide for people. Because some people have limited understanding, they don't believe that God is everywhere, so He gave Himself different names, but some people still think God is three.'

"Thus saith the Lord Jesus Christ????" You are claiming to be a prophet-- pronouncing the utterances of the Lord? Laughable, and not uncommon. In my years on forums I've met dozens of "prophets" like you- self-deluded spokesmen for God making all kinds of claims, declarations, predictions and punishments coming soon! I'll add you to the list. I've also met five people who claim to be one (or the other) of the two witnesses and a couple of Christs-- perhaps even the one that you think came to you in the early 2000's-- they were a dime a dozen back then.

The Lord Jesus Christ told us that He placed the body of the Son of God, per se, alongside the body of Moses in the Ark of the Covenant hidden somewhere in the Middle East.

Sorry for pointing it out, but this sounds very cult-like. Who is the "us" that Jesus came and said these things to? Do you have a group, or a name you call yourselves? I met one guy online who communicated with UFO's (aliens) and gave him 'the truth' of scripture in very much the same manner that you are claiming. Are you in touch with aliens?

The Lord Jesus Christ Himself, not the Son of God, per se, came into our lives from 2001 to 2014 on random calls and revelations.

I wish you wouldn't be so shy about such an incredible experience. Who is the "our" and how did this come about? Who? What? Where? and How? Have you related the story elsewhere on the forum? I'd be glad to search it out.

No, you're greatly mistaken here; the utterances I'm sharing with you guys are from the real and forever living Christ Jesus Himself, not from the Son of God who is long gone. He (the Son) is not Immanuel, who is the Lord Jesus Christ, the Spirit and Life that was in the Son of God during the time of His (Jesus') apostles and disciples.

I'm either greatly mistaken as you say, or you are greatly deluded as I say. You've said "the real and forever living Christ Jesus himself" is not a man (flesh) right? -And you make a distinction Jesus -who you say is spirit, even though we know he was born a man (baby) in Bethlehem to Mary and Joseph -- you say is actually the Father in disguise-- pretending to be a man?

It's so convoluted, your beliefs are beyond credible because they don't make sense to anyone but you. They follow no logic, they contradict scripture and common sense, as well as conflict one with another.

Good luck finding your way home.

[OneJack]

[Replying to Mr E in post #51]

Ummm. No. The spirit gives birth to spirit, not flesh. This is explicitly stated in scripture- John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

You either don't understand that, or you outright deny it to be true-- which is it?

What matters here is the understanding that comes and emanates from God, whose name is Jesus, do you have? The Son of God was born of flesh through Mary upon the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit. A son (flesh) was born unto Mary. John 3:6 is about being born anew - born in spirit. Flesh is tainted with sins; hence, it needs to be born anew to be freed from condemnation on Judgment Day. Coming back to God, whose name is Jesus, is the only way to be born anew. The Lord will forgive all our sins the moment we come to Him, repent of our sins, and follow Him until the end. In the instance of forgiveness, our spirit is born anew in heaven to start a new life with the Lord Jesus, the only Pastor and Shepherd [in His flock] who will guide and lead us to our salvation and eternal life. We have to maintain the salvation and eternal life the Lord rewarded to us [on the day we passed all the trials set forth by the Lord on our path during the trial period of His shepherding job to His flock] by being obedient to the Lord until the end.

Here's the math-- John 4:24 Jesus himself said- God is a Spirit:

The Lord Jesus taught us that He (the Almighty God) is everything, not only Spirit.

and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

No one can worship God through reading and understanding alone; the interaction of God is a must for anyone to be able to worship Him (God) in spirit and truth, which are only attainable through the real and forever living Christ Jesus alone, not of anything that is written only.

Is it the spirit part you have trouble with, or just the truth?

Troubles, in this context, exist in failure to come to the Lord Jesus Christ to hear and learn from Him the truth about everything we need for the salvation and eternal life of our souls.

[OneJack]

[Replying to Mr E in post #51]

Not even close. You didn't provide a scriptural reference because that is not a passage found in scripture at all. It's a mash up of two different passages, relating two different accounts at two different times to two different people as recorded by two different writers. But nice try. Are you simply in error with the quote, or are you purposefully deceptive?

Both passages contain the message brought by the angel of the Lord to Mary and Joseph, saying that Mary will give birth to a son, flesh like us and not a spirit, which you insist. That's the point I'm trying to emphasize in these two passages.

"Thus saith the Lord Jesus Christ????" You are claiming to be a prophet-- pronouncing the utterances of the Lord? Laughable,

Who among the prophets became famous and prominent to the people of the old days? What did the people of the old days do to the messengers of God?

and not uncommon.

Coming to and calling on the Almighty God, and listening to Him when He responds is truly UNCOMMON across all generations.

In my years on forums I've met dozens of "prophets" like you- self-deluded spokesmen for God making all kinds of claims, declarations, predictions and punishments coming soon!

How did you know if God truly sent them? Did you come to and ask God? If not, then you're only on your own perception.

I'll add you to the list. I've also met five people who claim to be one (or the other) of the two witnesses and a couple of Christs-- perhaps even the one that you think came to you in the early 2000's-- they were a dime a dozen back then.

The one who came to us in 2001 is always beside you/me/them, 24/7, without winking His eyes; He's always on watch for anyone who will come to Him to be saved and have eternal life.

Sorry for pointing it out, but this sounds very cult-like. Who is the "us" that Jesus came and said these things to?

The Lord Jesus Christ is the Almighty God, and He is the Good Shepherd to whom we came to know this thing about Moses' and the Son's bodies placed inside the Ark of the Covenant. You can accuse us of anything you wish, but we will remain firm in our stand and take on the Lord; He is the Almighty God who came into our lives in 2001. The 'us' are my family, relatives, and friends.

Do you have a group, or a name you call yourselves?

We have no group name or religious organization label; we serve and worship God individually.

I met one guy online who communicated with UFO's (aliens) and gave him 'the truth' of scripture in very much the same manner that you are claiming. Are you in touch with aliens?

The Lord Jesus Christ is not an alien, as you insinuate. He is the Almighty God whom you will see face to face on Judgment Day.

I wish you wouldn't be so shy about such an incredible experience. Who is the "our" and how did this come about? Who? What? Where? and How? Have you related the story elsewhere on the forum? I'd be glad to search it out.

Have made my response to this and provided you the link in other thread.

I'm either greatly mistaken as you say, or you are greatly deluded as I say.

The truth of the matter will be revealed when we both cross the Great Divide. For now, the skies remain truly clear, with no signs whatsoever to trouble those who are still focused on—and devoting their time to—fully indulging in the pleasures the flesh desires.

You've said "the real and forever living Christ Jesus himself" is not a man (flesh) right?

Exactly, the Lord Jesus is not a man; He is the Almighty God. We've heard and learned that from Him during the time He shepherded and guided us for almost 14 years.

-And you make a distinction Jesus -who you say is spirit,

Actually, the Lord Jesus is everything, not only spirit, because He is the Almighty God.

even though we know he was born a man (baby) in Bethlehem to Mary and Joseph --

You have read it in the bible, but never heard and learned from the Lord Jesus Christ, haven't you?

you say is actually the Father in disguise

The Father in the flesh is the appropriate term.

-- pretending to be a man?

Coming in the flesh - the flesh of the Son of God, per se, the man who was born of Mary.

It's so convoluted,

The way you convolute it is, I would say, a truly convoluted doctrine.

your beliefs are beyond credible because they don't make sense to anyone but you.

If the Lord's teachings made sense to the people during His incarnation, they would not crucify Him on the cross, would they?

They follow no logic,

What specific logic is that?

they contradict scripture and common sense,

Fear the most when doctrines, beliefs, and ideas are not aligned with the Lord Jesus Christ, and worse, when the same are not heard and learned from the real and forever living Christ Jesus.

as well as conflict one with another.

Everything, in that perception, will make a complete turn of 180 degrees when hearing and learning from the Lord Jesus Christ commences.

Good luck finding your way home.

I tell you, Jesus is everything; need I find something more, which is only in Jesus' hands?

[Mr E]

[Replying to OneJack in post #53]

We have no group name or religious organization label; we serve and worship God individually.

When you refer to 'us, we and our' it implies a group. You aren't affilitated with the New Life group in Antipolo City? I thought you said you were.

-The fact Jack, is that most people here just ignore you. I've made an honest effort to understand you, which I feel I now do. I just don't agree with you.

But I wish you well.

[OneJack]

[Replying to OneJack in post #53]

We have no group name or religious organization label; we serve and worship God individually.

When you refer to 'us, we and our' it implies a group. You aren't affilitated with the New Life group in Antipolo City? I thought you said you were.

Note: The establishment of a Beginning A New Life With Jesus Ministry was just in the beginning; it served as one of the trials set by the Lord on our path to salvation and eternal life, since we were used to the worship services and practices of various religious groups. The said ministry was later revoked and ceased to exist from that day onwards, since we all do not need to establish anything to worship God and be saved and have eternal life; all we need is to come to the Lord Jesus and let Him shepherd and guide us until the end to be saved and have eternal life.

-The fact Jack, is that most people here just ignore you.

What I fear the most will be when the Lord Jesus ignores me.

I've made an honest effort to understand you, which I feel I now do.

Thanks, everything will be cleared when we cross the Great Divide.

I just don't agree with you.

You really don't have to; what matters most is this: should we come to Jesus?

But I wish you well.

Likewise!

[Mr E]

Considering your 'utterances' from the Lord--- wouldn't it be more proper to refer to the sayings of the Lord Maco or Makie?

[OneJack]

Considering your 'utterances' from the Lord--- wouldn't it be more proper to refer to the sayings of the Lord Maco or Makie?

The utterances, per se, are testimonies to the Lord Jesus Christ today, no less, no more, even if you consider them to be of Mackie, or of the Lord. You need nothing from them, since our job to attain salvation and inherit eternal life is TO COME TO AND CALL ON THE LORD JESUS, AND LISTEN TO HIM WHEN HE RESPONDS.