Biblical Law?

[POI]

According to the Bible, many acts/actions are against "the law". All such acts/actions would also be deemed 'sin', and/or, 'missing the mark'. Further, some of these deemed broken laws are also punishable by death in various ways.

God has the opportunity to list (any/all) acts/actions in which he deems "unlawful" and/or "sinful". And yet, the topic of (owning other humans as property for life, for which can be beaten with impunity for life), somehow did NOT make it to the large list of God's "no-no's"? A matter-of-fact, it is quite the opposite; in that the Bible instead condones owning humans as property - for which can be beaten just short of death, for their lifetime.

For debate:

1) If God has the power to abolish (any/all) acts/actions in which he does not like, (while also knowing countless people will just violate many of them anyways), why then exclude the topic of 'chattel slavery' from the list of no-no's and instead condone it?

2) Why worship a God which disagrees with your moral compass? Unless you believe it IS moral to own other humans as permanent property as a form of "chattel slaves"?

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P.S. -- And for the record, some may try to wiggle out of this topic by sighting the 'golden rule' - as mentioned in Leviticus 19:18 and also in the "NT". However, this argument fails because then God would not need to bother with virtually any listed "no-no's". And yet, bothers to list MANY "no-no's" anyways. And further, instead goes out of his way to condone chattel slavery. Which, at best for the believer, is a contradiction to the listed 'golden rule.' But we all know that the rules aren't the same for all, when it comes to the ('Jewish' vs 'non-Jewish') men, women, and children alike...

[POI]

[Replying to OneJack in post #30]

Post 15 still sums up this exchange.

[1213]

God goes out of his way to tell us not to eat pork, but he just so happens to leave out one of the biggest atrocities humans have ever committed, for countless generations.

Yes, biggest atrocity has been that people don't love each other as themselves. I don't think God has left that out or ignored it. It is the people who want to do bad things to others who left that out and make all kind of excuses why it doesn't really apply.

Why does the Bible not just completely abolish the topic of humans owning other humans as property for life?

Interestingly, I think it was abolished in here Jer. 34:8-17.

The word that came to Jeremiah from Yahweh, after that the king Zedekiah had made a covenant with all the people who were at Jerusalem, to proclaim liberty to them; that every man should let his man-servant, and every man his maid-servant, who is a Hebrew or a Hebrewess, go free; that none should make bondservants of them, [to wit], of a Jew his brother. All the princes and all the people obeyed, who had entered into the covenant, that everyone should let his man-servant, and every-one his maid-servant, go free, that none should make bondservants of them any more; they obeyed, and let them go: but afterwards they turned, and caused the servants and the hand-maids, whom they had let go free, to return, and brought them into subjection for servants and for handmaids. Therefore the word of Yahweh came to Jeremiah from Yahweh, saying, Thus says Yahweh, the God of Israel: I made a covenant with your fathers in the day that I brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage, saying, At the end of seven years you shall let go every man his brother who is a Hebrew, who has been sold to you, and has served you six years, you shall let him go free from you: but your fathers didn't listen to me, neither inclined their ear. You were now turned, and had done that which is right in my eyes, in proclaiming liberty every man to his neighbor; and you had made a covenant before me in the house which is called by my name: but you turned and profaned my name, and caused every man his servant, and every man his handmaid, whom you had let go free at their pleasure, to return; and you brought them into subjection, to be to you for servants and for handmaids. Therefore thus says Yahweh: you have not listened to me, to proclaim liberty, every man to his brother, and every man to his neighbor: behold, I proclaim to you a liberty, says Yahweh, to the sword, to the pestilence, and to the famine; and I will make you to be tossed back and forth among all the kingdoms of the earth.
Jer. 34:8-17

To that you say, but it was about Hebrews, not about other people. And to that I say, everyone who must live by the Hebrew rules, like the slaves also had to, were Hebrews.

Because a slave is not equal to a free person. Hence, the law is not the same for all.

In both cases, if person murders other, there is death penalty. But, obviously, if the death doesn't come because of the other, there is no reason for punishment in any case.

The Bible expresses differing ways to procure slaves outside of kidnapping them. -

I think kidnapping is the same as holding someone against his will. It does not depend on how one was captured.

[POI]

Yes, biggest atrocity has been that people don't love each other as themselves. I don't think God has left that out or ignored it. It is the people who want to do bad things to others who left that out and make all kind of excuses why it doesn't really apply.

If the "golden rule" applies to all folks universally and equally, then why does god bother to distinguish differing rulesets between the master and the slave and/or the free verses the slave? I've mentioned Exodus 21:12 vs. Exodus 21:21 a half dozen times now, and you continue to ignore god's clear and direct <distinction> between the two groups.

Further, why does god go out of his way to express no punishment for the master beating their slave(s) if they survive a day or two? This is another matter you ignore or skip. If God orders no punishment, then he must not think it is nearly as bad as you would think it is. Just imagine if I were to whip you really bad, and you die 2 weeks later, and your spouse takes me to court. The judge hears the case, sights Exodus 21:21 and then renders me free from any punishment. Would your spouse then agree that justice was served here? I doubt it. Alternatively, had you of not been my 'chattel slave', in which god also condones in Leviticus 25:44-46, and I beat you, and then you died 2 weeks later, I would be ordered to be punished, as in Exodus 21:12. Got it now?

Interestingly, I think it was abolished in here Jer. 34:8-17.

The word that came to Jeremiah from Yahweh, after that the king Zedekiah had made a covenant with all the people who were at Jerusalem, to proclaim liberty to them; that every man should let his man-servant, and every man his maid-servant, who is a Hebrew or a Hebrewess, go free; that none should make bondservants of them, [to wit], of a Jew his brother. All the princes and all the people obeyed, who had entered into the covenant, that everyone should let his man-servant, and every-one his maid-servant, go free, that none should make bondservants of them any more; they obeyed, and let them go: but afterwards they turned, and caused the servants and the hand-maids, whom they had let go free, to return, and brought them into subjection for servants and for handmaids. Therefore the word of Yahweh came to Jeremiah from Yahweh, saying, Thus says Yahweh, the God of Israel: I made a covenant with your fathers in the day that I brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage, saying, At the end of seven years you shall let go every man his brother who is a Hebrew, who has been sold to you, and has served you six years, you shall let him go free from you: but your fathers didn't listen to me, neither inclined their ear. You were now turned, and had done that which is right in my eyes, in proclaiming liberty every man to his neighbor; and you had made a covenant before me in the house which is called by my name: but you turned and profaned my name, and caused every man his servant, and every man his handmaid, whom you had let go free at their pleasure, to return; and you brought them into subjection, to be to you for servants and for handmaids. Therefore thus says Yahweh: you have not listened to me, to proclaim liberty, every man to his brother, and every man to his neighbor: behold, I proclaim to you a liberty, says Yahweh, to the sword, to the pestilence, and to the famine; and I will make you to be tossed back and forth among all the kingdoms of the earth.
Jer. 34:8-17

To that you say, but it was about Hebrews, not about other people. And to that I say, everyone who must live by the Hebrew rules, like the slaves also had to, were Hebrews.

Explained above.

In both cases, if person murders other, there is death penalty.

Yet again, there is a reason Ex. 21:12 and Ex. 21:21 both exist. Meaning, different strokes for different folks, (no pun intended).

if the death doesn't come because of the other, there is no reason for punishment in any case.

Yet again, Ex. 21:21 specifies that if the slave survives passed the 48-hour mark, the master is free from any punishment. You see 1213, if you are deemed a master's property, the rules differ.

I think kidnapping is the same as holding someone against his will. It does not depend on how one was captured.

Then in your case, the Bible condones some forms of "kidnapping". Yet again, see Exodus 21:4-6 and Exodus 21:7, as the slave(s) have no say in the matter as god commands that such folks are not to go free.

[1213]

Further, why does god go out of his way to express no punishment for the master beating their slave(s) if they survive a day or two?

Probably because the death would not be the masters fault, if the slave survives day or do. Do you think, if non slave would have been hit and he dies days after the hit, he would have been seen as guilty for murder? How long in that case people would have waited to see the result?

[POI]

Probably because the death would not be the masters fault, if the slave survives day or do.

This is more wishful thinking. Verse 21 does not state there would be no punishment because it would be too difficult to tell if the blows caused the death. No, the verse instead states that the slave is not to be punished because the slave is the master's property.

12 Whoever strikes a person mortally shall be put to death. - (No time limit specified).

21 if the slave survives for a day or two, there is no punishment; for the slave is the owner’s property.

Do you think, if non slave would have been hit and he dies days after the hit, he would have been seen as guilty for murder? How long in that case people would have waited to see the result?

God would know, as God would already know how humans can die from prior injury. Case/point, God would know how ICP works (intercranial pressure). Severe or fatal ICP spikes is often highest between 3 to 5 days (72 to 120 hours) after the event. (http://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23011528/). In this particular case of the master striking the slave in the head, since god instructed that the slave master is absolved from any punishment after this time, then god is either:

a) not aware of how ICP works (or)...
b) verse 21 reads exactly as it states, in that the rules differ if you are someone else's property.

Please select from a) or b), as there is no 3rd option in your case.

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Or how about infection, namely sepsis? A master produces deep lashes, from a back whipping to his slave. The slave dies several days later, and the cause of death was from sepsis. Sure, the master could say the slave 'just died', but GOD would know what the cause of death was really from. And yet, because the slave is the master's property, no punishment?

Or even in modern times... If knowledge of ICP, sepsis, etc., were already in place, verse 21 STILL absolves the master from punishment where verse 12 would not, where a free person suffered the same fate.

In observing verse 21, a master could strike their slave, which lands them in the hospital. They die 3 days later from 'complication(s)'. According to your book, the master is not to be punished.

Please try again 1213.

[1213]

...
12 Whoever strikes a person mortally shall be put to death. - (No time limit specified)....

That is interesting. So, you believe if person (not slave owner) hit another person (not slave), and the person died for example after a month, the person who hit deserves death according to the Bible and there was no time limit? Do you have anything to support that idea?

a) not aware of how ICP works (or)...
b) verse 21 reads exactly as it states, in that the rules differ if you are someone else's property.
...

Or
c) God knows better than you.

[POI]

So, you believe if person (not slave owner) hit another person (not slave), and the person died for example after a month, the person who hit deserves death according to the Bible and there was no time limit? Do you have anything to support that idea?

That is not what I said. Please stop it with the strawman argument(s). ICP sometimes does not fully manifest for (3-5) days. If I were to crack someone across the head, and was caught, I would be arrested for assault/battery. If the law were to find out that the recipient died 5 days later, from complications, the charges against me would then increase to murder in the 1st/2nd/3rd degree. On the contrary, if I were to follow Biblical law, and I owned a slave, and the exact same circumstances were to take place, not only would I not be arrested for assault/battery, but I would never be charged for their murder either. Got it?

In this particular case of the master striking the slave in the head, since god instructed that the slave master is absolved from any punishment after this time, then god is either:

a) not aware of how ICP works (or)...
b) verse 21 reads exactly as it states, in that the rules differ if you are someone else's property.

There is no third option, as much as you would like for there to be....

[1213]

So, you believe if person (not slave owner) hit another person (not slave), and the person died for example after a month, the person who hit deserves death according to the Bible and there was no time limit? Do you have anything to support that idea?

That is not what I said. Please stop it with the strawman argument(s). ICP sometimes does not fully manifest for (3-5) days. If I were to crack someone across the head, and was caught, I would be arrested for assault/battery. If the law were to find out that the recipient died 5 days later, from complications, the charges against me would then increase to murder in the 1st/2nd/3rd degree...

Where are those time limits given in the Bible?

[POI]

Where are those time limits given in the Bible?

Ex. 21:21 But if the slave survives for a day or two, there is no punishment; for the slave is the owner’s property.

Third request.. Please select one of the two:

In this particular case of the master striking the slave in the head, since god instructed that the slave master is absolved from any punishment after this time, then god is either:

a) not aware of how ICP works? (or)...
b) verse 21 reads exactly as it states, in that the rules differ if you are someone else's property?

[1213]

Where are those time limits given in the Bible?

Ex. 21:21 But if the slave survives for a day or two, there is no punishment; for the slave is the owner’s property.

I asked the limits for the case where there is no slave involved.

Third request.. Please select one of the two:

In this particular case of the master striking the slave in the head, since god instructed that the slave master is absolved from any punishment after this time, then god is either:

a) not aware of how ICP works? (or)...
b) verse 21 reads exactly as it states, in that the rules differ if you are someone else's property?

I select: c) God knows better than you.