Why is homosexuality wrong?

[Greatest I Am]

Why is homosexuality wrong?

We all know what gays are and what they do. All of God’s laws are responses to a victim of some sort.

The one lied to is deceived.
The one who is killed is deprived of life.
The one stolen from looses his goods.

In the case of homosexuals there does not appear to be a victim or anyone hurt by the actions of the participant.

Why then does God discriminate against homosexuals?
It appears to go against His usual justice.

Regards
DL

[upallnite]

The bible doesn't tell you to follow in the ways of Abraham, Jacob, David and Solomon, it tells you to follow in the ways of God. Having multiple wives is a form of adultery.

Nuns! There are a lot of nuns. Nuns make the claim that they are married to God. God has alot more wives than the human examples given. Where in the bible does God say I should not follow his example?

I still have not seen anyone point out a victim of homosexuality. I have seen examples of gay people doing the same things straight people do. If homosexuality is wrong then so is heterosexuality.

Knocking on the back door, eating the taco, multi-speed toys, pinching nipples, cuddling and much more are things I do for my wife because I love her. These things do not get me off, they get her off. If someone is to prude to step out of their comfort area then all I can say is, "Why do you not want to make your partner happy?"

[TMMaria]

Why is homosexuality wrong?

Right or wrong as in morality? The answer are very broad, encompassing, requiring understanding of what is natural law...and discerning what human conditions align with natural law...and what are out of alignment, in other words a disordered condition.

Here's a few readings to get you started on this whole moral paradigm..."Seek first to understand" is a very wise suggestion. Please do differentiate your knowledge of the Christian's understanding of morality...from your knowledge of God. Some excerpts from the New Advent Catholic Encyclopia:

Are homosexuals born with this disorder? I have never heard a definitive answer on this subject. I believe this behavior is not learned, but if it happens at birth, why would God place such a heavy cross on any human being he created?

Science has not yet established the degree to which homosexual tendencies are learned or inborn. It is likely to be a combination of both factors, like alcoholism is. In the latter case, there is a genetic predisposition to alcoholism, but it takes a process of conditioning and experience with alchohol to develop the addiction.

Sexual drives are built into the human race biologically, but among humans sex is subject to a great deal of cognitive conditioning. Responses to particular stimuli (body shapes, facial features, hair colors, clothing) are largely learned and vary widely from individual to individual, and even from time to time in a single individual's life. This degree of cognitive involvement in sexual behavior is not found among lower life forms, whose sexual behavior is almost entirely instinctual and has few cognitive factors involved in it.

There may be genetic, hormonal, or neurological factors toward which produce a predisposition toward homosexual desires, but some degree of learning and conditioned response is almost certainly involved (as in human sexuality generally). Because of this ambiguity, the Catechism of the Catholic Church states that homosexuality's "psychological genesis remains largely unexplained" (CCC 2357).

It is important to realize that homosexuals do not have complete, voluntary control over their desires. Of course, they have control over their actions, as do heterosexuals. After a person has been conditioned to homosexual responses, it is impossible to simply wish away the desires, just as it is impossible for an alcoholic to wish away his desire to be drunk. (It should be noted that heterosexuals do not have complete control over their desires either.)

Homosexuals also do not make a conscious choice to have homosexual tendencies. Nobody says, "I think I'll become a homosexual!" any more than anyone says, "I think I'll become an alcoholic!" Homosexual desires may come about as a result of certain choices the individual makes (such as thinking about members of the same sex in a certain way or engaging in homosexual behavior), just as alcoholic desires may come about as the result of certain choices the individual has made (such as frequently choosing to get drunk), but virtually no one consciously chooses to become a homosexual or an alchoholic as a goal and then intentionally cultivates the corresponding desires.

For this reason, the Catechism states, "The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. They do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. The persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition" (CCC 2358).

While they may not choose their desires, homosexuals do have the ability to choose whether they act on those desires, just as an alcholic has the choice of whether to act on his desire to get drunk and just as a heterosexual has the choice of acting on his desires. For this reason, the Catechism states, "Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, traditions has always declared that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered. They are contrary to natural law . . . . Under no circumstances can they be approved . . . . Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection" (CCC 2357, 2359).

Regarding God's involvement in the origin of homosexuality: He is not the source of such temptations, just as he is not the source of temptation in general: "Let no one say when he is tempted, 'I am tempted by God'; for God cannot be tempted with evil and he himself tempts no one" (Jas. 1:13). Adam is the source of the temptations we feel. It is because of his sin that we have inherited a corrupt nature (Rom. 5:19).

Notice that Catholic Christians are called to respect just as everyone else, not to discriminate people with homosexual tendencies. Still it doesn't mean homosexual relations are to be completely excused as anything close to natural law:

At the present time there are those who, basing themselves on observations in the psychological order, have begun to judge indulgently, and even to excuse completely, homosexual relations between certain people. This they do in opposition to the constant teaching of the Magisterium and to the moral sense of the Christian people.

A distinction is drawn, and it seems with some reason, between homosexuals whose tendency comes from a false education, from a lack of normal sexual development, from habit, from bad example, or from other similar causes, and is transitory or at least not incurable; and homosexuals who are definitively such because of some kind of innate instinct or a pathological constitution judged to be incurable.

In regard to this second category of subjects, some people conclude that their tendency is so natural that it justifies in their case homosexual relations within a sincere communion of life and love analogous to marriage, in so far as such homosexuals feel incapable of enduring a solitary life.

In the pastoral field, these homosexuals must certainly be treated with understanding and sustained in the hope of overcoming their personal difficulties and their inability to fit into society. Their culpability will be judged with prudence. But no pastoral method can be employed which would give moral justification to these acts on the grounds that they would be consonant with the condition of such people. For according to the objective moral order, homosexual relations are acts which lack an essential and indispensable finality. In Sacred Scripture they are condemned as a serious depravity and even presented as the sad consequence of rejecting God.[18] This judgment of Scripture does not of course permit us to conclude that all those who suffer from this anomaly are personally responsible for it, but it does attest to the fact that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered and can in no case be approved of.

[TMMaria]

According to the Church's teaching, mortal sin, which is opposed to God, does not consist only in formal and direct resistance to the commandment of charity. It is equally to be found in this opposition to authentic love which is included in every deliberate transgression, in serious matter, of each of the moral laws.

Christ Himself has indicated the double commandment of love as the basis of the moral life. But on this commandment depends "the whole Law, and the Prophets also."[22] It therefore includes the other particular precepts. In fact, to the young man who asked, ". . . what good deed must I do to possess eternal life?" Jesus replied: ". . . if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments . . . . You must not kill. You must not commit adultery. You must not steal. You must not bring false witness. Honor your father and mother, and: you must love your neighbor as yourself."[23]

A person therefore sins mortally not only when his action comes from direct contempt for love of God and neighbor, but also when he consciously and freely, for whatever reason, chooses something which is seriously disordered. For in this choice, as has been said above, there is already included contempt for the Divine commandment: the person turns himself away from God and loses charity. Now according to Christian tradition and the Church's teaching, and as right reason also recognizes, the moral order of sexuality involves such high values of human life that every direct violation of this order is objectively serious.[24]

It is true that in sins of the sexual order, in view of their kind and their causes, it more easily happens that free consent is not fully given; this is a fact which calls for caution in all judgment as to the subject's responsibility. In this matter it is particularly opportune to recall the following words of Scripture: "Man looks at appearances but God looks at the heart."[25] However, although prudence is recommended in judging the subjective seriousness of a particular sinful act, it in no way follows that one can hold the view that in the sexual field mortal sins are not committed.

Pastors of souls must therefore exercise patience and goodness; but they are not allowed to render God's commandments null, nor to reduce unreasonably people's responsibility. "To diminish in no way the saving teaching of Christ constitutes an eminent form of charity for souls. But this must ever be accompanied by patience and goodness, such as the Lord Himself gave example of in dealing with people. Having come not to condemn but to save, He was indeed intransigent with evil, but merciful towards individuals."


Homosexuals should know that their tendencies are contrary to natural law, and they are called to chastity and practicing the virtue of self-mastery. They are called to living the Christian life by following in the footsteps of Christ requires that everyone should "deny himself and take up his cross daily," sustained by the hope of reward, for "if we have died with Him, we shall also reign with Him." It is certainly a higher calling, a martyrdom of love. Dying to yourself out of love of God. This is a martyrdom not just for homosexuals but for all of us possessing knowledge of God...living a martyrdom of love in our ordinary, everyday life.

The Apostle St. Paul describes in vivid terms the painful interior conflict of the person enslaved to sin: the conflict between "the law of his mind" and the "law of sin which dwells in his members" and which holds him captive.[33] But man can achieve liberation from his "body doomed to death" through the grace of Jesus Christ.[34] This grace is enjoyed by those who have been justified by it and whom "the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set free from the law of sin and death."[35] It is for this reason that the Apostle adjures them: "That is why you must not let sin reign in your mortal bodies or command your obedience to bodily passions."[36]

This liberation, which fits one to serve God in newness of life, does not however suppress the concupiscence deriving from original sin, nor the promptings to evil in this world, which is "in the power of the evil one."[37] This is why the Apostle exhorts the faithful to overcome temptations by the power of God[38] and to "stand against the wiles of the Devil"[39] by faith, watchful prayer[40] and an austerity of life that brings the body into subjection to the Spirit.[41]

[OnceConvinced]

Sex before marriage. There is most certainly a victim if pregnancy is a consequence.
Ask all the unwed mothers around.

Well that's assuming that 1) they do get pregnant. Sex before marriage does not always result in pregnancy. In fact it would be fair to say that in the majority of cases it doesn't.

2) Why do you automatically place an unwed mother in the category of a victim? There are plenty of unwed mothers out there who fall pregnant and count it a blessing. In fact according to the bible it should always be considered a blessing.

Coveting hurts the one coveting. It is unpleasant to go about with unquenched desires.

Having unquenched desires does not make you a victim. And everyone has unuenched desires whether they covet or not.

As to God's pride, I think that those commandments were given to insure loyalty and assume that if the system breaks down then all are hurt by the chaos.

Taking the lord's name in vain would cause chaos? And if I make myself an idol to worship, what chaos would that cause?

[Rayosun]

(quoting The Roman Catholic Catechism) "Under no circumstances can they (homosexual acts) be approved . . . . Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection" (CCC 2357, 2359).

• Can you believe the gall of this assemblage of "men of God" - who have proven themselves incapable of keeping the vow of celibacy which they have taken upon themselves voluntarily, and who have not just broken that vow but in the process have violated the most vulnerable of their charges, young children - now imposing "chastity" as the one moral option allowed to those whom it even recognizes as born homosexual?!?

  Jesus said to his disciples, "Occasions for stumbling are bound to come, but woe to anyone by whom they come! It would be better for you if a millstone were hung around your neck and you were thrown into the sea than for you to cause one of these little ones to stumble.

But let's not be misled into believing these recent scandals are just a rare instance of "fall from grace". These "men of God" who have been emulating kings and princes instead of Jesus since the time of the Emperor Constantine, have a very long history of showing themselves to be much more moral pygmies than moral giants.
The best example that comes to mind is the way they instructed their flocks in Nazi Germany to avoid practicing masturbation, homosexuality, birth-control and/or abortion for fear of going to hell but were unable to figure out that it was incumbant on them as the moral leaders of one of the worlds most Christian countries of the world (98%) to instruct the faithful that participating in the mass extermination of the entire Jewish race was more sinful than masturbation, by excommunicating the many top leaders of the Third Reich, beginning with Adolf Hitler and Josef Goebbels, and putting "the Nazi bible", (Hitler's Mein Kampf) on the Index of Forbidden Reading.
By the way Hitler practiced what his church taught him by persecuting not just Jews, but homosexuals, women who had abortions, and of course liberals.

See much, much, much more on all of this at http://JesusWouldBeFurious.Org/RCscandal !

[Flail]

When we are all finished taking care of our 'neighbor' and our community and our famlies and we can walk as Jesus did, without judgment of others, then and only then, might we have time to worry about what adults are doing to 'get themselves off' and what body parts they use to do it....get over it and get on with something relevant to the needs of others.

This entire post is ridiculous

Burn the Bibles.

[Easyrider]

(quoting The Roman Catholic Catechism) "Under no circumstances can they (homosexual acts) be approved . . . . Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection" (CCC 2357, 2359).

• Can you believe the gall of this assemblage of "men of God" - who have proven themselves incapable of keeping the vow of celibacy which they have taken upon themselves voluntarily, and who have not just broken that vow but in the process have violated the most vulnerable of their charges, young children - now imposing "chastity" as the one moral option allowed to those whom it even recognizes as born homosexual?!?

I'm no big Catholic defender but one could just have easily made a case for all the honorable Catholic men and women who have lived up to their vows of chastity. So your overgeneralization is not compelling.

But let's not be misled into believing these recent scandals are just a rare instance of "fall from grace". These "men of God" who have been emulating kings and princes instead of Jesus since the time of the Emperor Constantine, have a very long history of showing themselves to be much more moral pygmies than moral giants.

Please remember to include all the "fallen from grace moral pygmy" homosexual ministers then who have also embarrassed the Catholic ministry.

By the way Hitler practiced what his church taught him by persecuting not just Jews, but homosexuals, women who had abortions, and of course liberals.

A case can certainly be made that Hitler was a practicing homosexual himself at at least one point in his life, and that homosexuals were a significant influence at the highest levels of the Nazi Reich.

Hitler's "Gay" Roots

In 1945 historian Samuel Igra published "Germany's National Vice"[1] (homosexuality was known as "the German vice" across Europe in the 1920s and '30s), in which Igra, who escaped from Germany in 1939, alleged that Hitler "had been a male prostitute in Vienna at the time of his sojourn there, from 1907 to 1912, and that he practiced the same calling in Munich from 1912 to 1914" (Igra:67). None of Hitler's supposed former clients are known to have come forward during his rise to power or later. In addition, Hitler's friends from his Vienna days - notably his roommate August Kubizek - claimed that he was vociferously opposed to prostitution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler's_sexuality

Homosexuals Rampant in the Nazi Party

The Nazi Party was founded in Munich in the Bratwurstgloeckl, which just happened to be what today is known as a "gay bar." This was no coincidence because the Party was largely homosexual. Many of its rituals and symbols came from sodomite organizations and individuals, among them the "Sieg Heil" salute, the double lightning bolt "SS" symbol, and the inverted triangle to identify classes of prisoners in the concentration camps.

Indeed, in the perverted atmosphere in the Weimar Republic after the German surrender in World War I, cities like Berlin and Munich were known around the world as capitals where sodomites flocked. In The Arms of Krupp (Boston, Little, Brown, 1968), William Manchester wrote that "sodomy was delicately known as 'the German vice'." (P.232) In Germany's National Vice (London, Quality Press, 1945), Samuel Igra said this: "In Germany these unnatural vices became a veritable cult among the ruling classes...."

Almost all Hitler's Nazi leaders were sodomites, no doubt because Der Führer preferred sodomite companions and co-workers. His closest friends were Ernst Roehm and Rudolf Hess, both homosexuals. Among homosexual Nazi leaders were Baldur von Schirach; Hitler's personal lawyer, Hans Frank; his adjutant Wilhelm Bruckner; His financial adviser Walther Funk, et cetera and so on. And on. Hitler's second-in-command, Hermann Goering, chief of the Luftwaffe, liked to dress up in drag and wear campy makeup.

Remember Julius Streicher, the notorious Jew-baiter? He was fired as a schoolteacher following many charges that he was molesting boys. Streicher later became a pornographer. Hitler's chauffeur and personal secretary, Emile Maurice was a sodomite. Reinhard Heydrich, a monster known as the "blond beast," who vowed to exterminate the Jews, became one of Hitler's closest associates, and was another sodomite. Again, homosexuality in the top echelons of the Nazi Party was the rule, not the exception, because that was what Der Führer wanted.

http://www.federalobserver.com/archive.php?aid=3885

[Flail]

Church could get interesting enough even for me to attend if Christians have to start 'witnessing and confessing' about what they do sexually with their spouse or committed partner or on a date if single.....oral and anal sex and all the little kinky stuff that is done for pleasure...if pleasure is wrong then let's hear what everyone is feeling guilty about.....confess...witness ...get it off your chest.....details please!!

[Rayosun]

"I'm no big Catholic defender but one could just have easily made a case for all the honorable Catholic men and women who have lived up to their vows of chastity. So your overgeneralization is not compelling."

You might find the case more compelling if you got the point, i.e. it's not that they all break their vow of celibacy (no one knows how many are loyal to them, as they do their best to hide their failings). The point is that the Catholic Church which can't even get its own priests to live up to their voluntary vow of celibacy want to impose this very celibacy on their unwilling homosexual members.

"A case can certainly be made that Hitler was a practicing homosexual himself at at least one point in his life, and that homosexuals were a significant influence at the highest levels of the Nazi Reich."

So what? Would a listing of all of the monsters of history who were heterosexual prove that heterosexuality is a heinous sin?
The point that Hitler shared his Catholic church's view of homosexuality and persecuted gays is only made more sick by your pointing out that he himself was gay.
Does the Rev. Ted Haggard, leader of the Evangelical ministry in America ring any bells?!?

[Easyrider]

"I'm no big Catholic defender but one could just have easily made a case for all the honorable Catholic men and women who have lived up to their vows of chastity. So your overgeneralization is not compelling."

You might find the case more compelling if you got the point, i.e. it's not that they all break their vow of celibacy (no one knows how many are loyal to them, as they do their best to hide their failings). The point is that the Catholic Church which can't even get its own priests to live up to their voluntary vow of celibacy want to impose this very celibacy on their unwilling homosexual members.

Well it's a sin, Rayosun. You wouldn't expect them to condone it, would you?

The point that Hitler shared his Catholic church's view of homosexuality and persecuted gays is only made more sick by your pointing out that he himself was gay.

1. Where does it say those were Hitler's "Catholic" views, and not just his own personal views?

2. There's nothing sick about pointing out Hitler's gay proclivities around this place. People try to make him out to be a Christian all the time.

Does the Rev. Ted Haggard, leader of the Evangelical ministry in America ring any bells?!?

Yeah, there's a lot of unbiblical types around, including those who promote or defend illicit gay sex and take on God in the process.

You ever hear of Jezebel?

Revelation 2:20 - Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols.