Why is homosexuality wrong?

[Greatest I Am]

Why is homosexuality wrong?

We all know what gays are and what they do. All of God’s laws are responses to a victim of some sort.

The one lied to is deceived.
The one who is killed is deprived of life.
The one stolen from looses his goods.

In the case of homosexuals there does not appear to be a victim or anyone hurt by the actions of the participant.

Why then does God discriminate against homosexuals?
It appears to go against His usual justice.

Regards
DL

[micatala]

Where does Jesus condemn homosexuality specifically?

Jesus is God (many scriptures). As God, Jesus is the one who gave Moses the Levitical law against gay sex to begin with; and he's the one who inspires all Scripture (2 Timothy 3:16), including prohibitions against gay sex in Romans 1:26-27 and I Corinthians 6:9-10, etc.

This ignores that Jesus explicitly contravenes OT law more than once. Moses said an eye for an eye. Jesus said turn the other cheek. Moses said divorce and remarriage were OK. Jesus said not unless adultery was involved.

Doesn't help you. The moral laws were never abolished. Murder is still murder; adultery still adultery; and gay sex still a sin (Romans 1:26-27; 1 Cor. 6:9-10, etc.).

Doesn't help you. ALthough I have asked many times, no one has been able to present any credible biblical reason to divide the laws into moral, ceremonial etc. It is explicitly given as one law, all to be obeyed by the Hebrews, all indicated to be the commands of God to the Hebrews.

You have also not refuted that Jesus explicitly contravenes this law.

You also have not addressed the ambiguity in translation of the terms Paul uses, nor addressed the context that implies these passages apply to a certain group of people identified as having already rejected God.

Next, as another point we should note that even if we only look at Paul, there are several teachings he gives that Christians typically do not accept. According to Paul, women should not teach in church, and they should not cut there hair. Are Christians who do not insist that women be barred from the pulpit patting people on the back on their way to perdition? I don't think so.

Finally, the condemnation of homosexuals and the refusal to deal with them fairly violates the most important teachings given by Christ. That we should love our neighbors as ourselves, and that we should do unto others as we would have the do unto us. By allowing heteroxuals morally sanctioned outlets for sexual activity and not homosexuals, many Christians are in my view violating these most important aspects of the teachings of Jesus. This is like the Pharisees insisting that Jesus' disciples were sinning by harvesting grain on the sabbath. The effect is that the greater good is subjugated to the traditions and prejudice of the prevailing religious view.

In addition, the Apostles later decide nearly all of the OT law does not need to be followed by Christians.

Not for salvation. But Paul said he upholds the law (as a guide to godly living).

You continue to ignore Romans 14. It is up to each believer in his or her own conscience to decide what Godly living means for them. Paul teaches salvation by faith, not by works or the law. If gays 'believe with their heart and confess with their mouth' that Jesus is Lord then they are saved, period.

Nope. But he did tell her (the adulteress) to GO AND SIN NO MORE.

And he left it up to her to decide whether to do this and what this meant.

It's obvious what it meant - no more adultery. And if she continues to interpret that to mean more adultery is fine, then she gets to pay the price at the Judgment.

Fine. Are you willing to insist that all Christians who have divorced for reasons other than spousal unfaithfulness and remarried should repent be leaving their present marriages? If not, it seems to me you have no grounds for objecting to homosexuals making their own determination as to how they follow Christ.

Besides, adultery is not comprable to homosexuality. Asking a homosexual to 'repent' is like asking a heterosexual to repent of being heterosexual.

Nope. There's plenty of ex-gays around. Check the web for "ex-gay(s)."

I have. This is baloney. Even many in the 'ex-gay' movement admit that the 'cured' are not really 'ex-gays'. They are simply managing to maintain celibacy. THey are not ex-gays at all.

In addition, you are ignoring that many of these ex-gays are really ex-(ex-gays). They eventually find that their 'reorientation' was an illusion.

In addition, you are ignoring that even those who continue to insist they are ex-gay are a tiny minority compared to the vast majority of gays who have made attempts to 'change' and found that they cannot, not to mention those who have simply accepted that this is the way they were born. Christians who trot out the 'ex-gay' ministries as evidence that we should expect all gays to 'change and repent' are simply not interested in the truth, in my view. They seek to manufacture by any means evidence to support their position while ignoring the vast majority of evidence which indicates that they are in error.

Then why don't Christians leave it up to God to decide, rather than verablly bashing gays, telling untruths about gays and homosexuality, and passing laws that discriminate against them?

Listen, defending illicit carnality is not a virtue. Someone has to counter the politically-correct pundits who spread the lies that gay sex isn't to be repented of and that patting gay sex sinners on their backs on their way down to perdition, without trying to help them back to righteousness, is a good thing.

I understand you are sincere in your belief that homosexuals are going to hell. However, I would suggest that only God knows whether this is the case. If a Christian homosexual has examined his conscience and can come to no other conclusion than that God made him or her as she is, then as long as they are acting respectfully towards their brothers and sisters in Christ, it is not up to other Christians to keep pointing fingers about how they should repent. This is clearly taught in the Bible. Again, I would ask if you are willing to continually and vociferously insist that those who have divorced and remarried to repent of their second marriages, and insist as vociferously as you have here that they are headed to perdition if they don't.

Jesus' harshest words were for the most religously devout, the most dedicated to the scripture of his day. I hope you understand that I cannot but see the position you are taking as Pharisaic. IMV, it puts the central teachings of the Bible secondary to archaic views and less important biblical considerations. Especially when the view is argued on the basis of ignoring reality and often fabricating or distorting evidence, I cannot but see that Christ would be aggreived by what he is seeing many of his followers engaging in.

Probably part of the problem is that I am arguing with sincere gay CHristians who are trying their best to follow Christ in mind, while you probably have in mind gays who display promiscuous, lewd, or aggressive behavior. We could probably agree that people in general should behave responsibly and respectfully with regards to their sexual behavior. I would ask gay Christians to follow the same behavioral guidelines that might be expected of heterosexuals. However, I reiterate that to insist that gays deny who they are and remain celibate (or worse, engage in self-deception by pretending to be heterosexual) is an outrageour burden to place upon them, and one that we do not expect heterosexuals to bear.[/u]

[Flail]

It seems to me that most Christians have a "hit list" that is bigger than their "prayer list"...

There are many shameful things that have developed from Christianity and the Catholic sect in particular. One of them is the unfortunate fiction of vowing celibacy for the all male Priesthood. This was, of course, a natural draw to those who were homosexual who, perhaps, wanted a structure and a vow to help them avoid the actions and guilt that they had been taught were evil...or perhaps because they could mask their conduct with available children as pedophiles. In either event, the continued dogma of the Church is ridiculous as is most of the ritual they preach and practice in the name of the man who would be appalled at such teachings. The biggest tragedy of all, however, was the Catholic leadership choosing to cover up and promote pedophilia in order to preserve the business model and the profit center in Rome.

[Goat]

Were David and Solomon sinless? Does God point out every single one of our sins to us? Just because the very forefathers of Judaism and Christianity had multiple wives, that doesn't make it acceptable. The bible doesn't tell you to follow in the ways of Abraham, Jacob, David and Solomon, it tells you to follow in the ways of God. Having multiple wives is a form of adultery. If you are married to one, but you are attracted to another, it is adultery. Jesus makes this all very clear.

No, but in the Old testament, we have examples of where multiple wives are allowed, and no restrictions in the Old testament that it is prohibited.


As far as what is attributed to Jesus, that isn't in the Tanaka, and is meaningless to me. To me, what Jesus says is not of God. And, show me chapter and verse where it says Jesus said you can only have one wife. If says if you have a wife, and are attracted to someone ELSE, that is adultery.. but doesn't say anything about being attracted to two wives.

[Flail]

Or rather the Christian hit list is the same as their prayer list....or so it would seem to me.

[Easyrider]

Were David and Solomon sinless? Does God point out every single one of our sins to us? Just because the very forefathers of Judaism and Christianity had multiple wives, that doesn't make it acceptable. The bible doesn't tell you to follow in the ways of Abraham, Jacob, David and Solomon, it tells you to follow in the ways of God. Having multiple wives is a form of adultery. If you are married to one, but you are attracted to another, it is adultery. Jesus makes this all very clear.

No, but in the Old testament, we have examples of where multiple wives are allowed, and no restrictions in the Old testament that it is prohibited.

Wrong. For the LORD has said to you, ‘You shall not return that way again.’ 17 Neither shall he multiply wives for himself, lest his heart turn away; nor shall he greatly multiply silver and gold for himself. Deuteronomy 17:16-17 NKJV

The Bible also says, "The TWO (not three or more) shall become one flesh.."

Nowhere in the Bible are gay unions or gay marriages approved by God or seen in a positive light.

[Easyrider]

ALthough I have asked many times, no one has been able to present any credible biblical reason to divide the laws into moral, ceremonial etc. It is explicitly given as one law, all to be obeyed by the Hebrews, all indicated to be the commands of God to the Hebrews.

Just do a search in Google on "Bible - moral law(s)." Follow that up with "Bible Ceremonial Law," etc.

You have also not refuted that Jesus explicitly contravenes this law.

I don't see how.

You also have not addressed the ambiguity in translation of the terms Paul uses, nor addressed the context that implies these passages apply to a certain group of people identified as having already rejected God.

Show me where homosexual relations (or gay marriage / gay unions) are approved in scripture for either believers or non believers?

Next, as another point we should note that even if we only look at Paul, there are several teachings he gives that Christians typically do not accept. According to Paul, women should not teach in church, and they should not cut there hair. Are Christians who do not insist that women be barred from the pulpit patting people on the back on their way to perdition? I don't think so.

You might want to read this:

http://www.raystedman.org/misc/woteach.html

Finally, the condemnation of homosexuals and the refusal to deal with them fairly violates the most important teachings given by Christ.

Define "condemnation"? No one is saying we are condemning anyone to hell, just that gay sex is a sin, and like any number of other sins, needs to be confessed and repented of.

That we should love our neighbors as ourselves, and that we should do unto others as we would have the do unto us. By allowing heteroxuals morally sanctioned outlets for sexual activity and not homosexuals, many Christians are in my view violating these most important aspects of the teachings of Jesus.

Love thy neighbor, not the sin. Trying to turn someone to righteousness is loving one's neighbor.

In addition, the Apostles later decide nearly all of the OT law does not need to be followed by Christians.

Easyrider: Not for salvation. But Paul said he upholds the law (as a guide to godly living).

You continue to ignore Romans 14. It is up to each believer in his or her own conscience to decide what Godly living means for them.

Fine, then adultery is ok to those who believe that way, thievery is okay, idolatry is ok, etc., etc. That's basically what you're saying.

Fine. Are you willing to insist that all Christians who have divorced for reasons other than spousal unfaithfulness and remarried should repent be leaving their present marriages? If not, it seems to me you have no grounds for objecting to homosexuals making their own determination as to how they follow Christ.

How do you unscramble eggs? My view is to go and don't do it anymore.

Nope. There's plenty of ex-gays around. Check the web for "ex-gay(s)."

I have. This is baloney. Even many in the 'ex-gay' movement admit that the 'cured' are not really 'ex-gays'. They are simply managing to maintain celibacy. THey are not ex-gays at all.

Baloney. I've seen too many testimonials. It was either ABC or NBC that did a show with a number of reformed homosexuals, complete with new wives and even new children.

I understand you are sincere in your belief that homosexuals are going to hell.

I'll let God sort the hell part out. I'm just saying gay sex is a sin and needs to be confessed and repented of.

Jesus' harshest words were for the most religously devout, the most dedicated to the scripture of his day.

No, they weren't devout in a godly way, but in a politically-correct way. As Jesus said, "They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.' " - Matthew 15

Just like the politically-correct teachings of men today who say gay sex is ok.

I hope you understand that I cannot but see the position you are taking as Pharisaic.

I think your position is that way. Like the Pharisees, you are embracing the "teachings of men."

However, I reiterate that to insist that gays deny who they are and remain celibate (or worse, engage in self-deception by pretending to be heterosexual) is an outrageour burden to place upon them, and one that we do not expect heterosexuals to bear.[/u]

You're welcome to your belief, but I know God / the Holy Spirit, can transform sinners if they cooperate.

[Goat]

Were David and Solomon sinless? Does God point out every single one of our sins to us? Just because the very forefathers of Judaism and Christianity had multiple wives, that doesn't make it acceptable. The bible doesn't tell you to follow in the ways of Abraham, Jacob, David and Solomon, it tells you to follow in the ways of God. Having multiple wives is a form of adultery. If you are married to one, but you are attracted to another, it is adultery. Jesus makes this all very clear.

No, but in the Old testament, we have examples of where multiple wives are allowed, and no restrictions in the Old testament that it is prohibited.

Wrong. For the LORD has said to you, ‘You shall not return that way again.’ 17 Neither shall he multiply wives for himself, lest his heart turn away; nor shall he greatly multiply silver and gold for himself. Deuteronomy 17:16-17 NKJV

The Bible also says, "The TWO (not three or more) shall become one flesh.."

Nowhere in the Bible are gay unions or gay marriages approved by God or seen in a positive light.

Well, you certainly know how to take the words of God out of context. Duet 17:16-17 was a historian that was warning about the habit of using marriages to foreigners as a method of gaining allies. This passage presupposes Solomon's
horse trading and wives for political purposes (kings 23:21-23 and Kings 11.1-8), and was warning against them.

You really should pay more attention to the Word of God, and not corrupt it so much.

[jgh7]

Were David and Solomon sinless? Does God point out every single one of our sins to us? Just because the very forefathers of Judaism and Christianity had multiple wives, that doesn't make it acceptable. The bible doesn't tell you to follow in the ways of Abraham, Jacob, David and Solomon, it tells you to follow in the ways of God. Having multiple wives is a form of adultery. If you are married to one, but you are attracted to another, it is adultery. Jesus makes this all very clear.

No, but in the Old testament, we have examples of where multiple wives are allowed, and no restrictions in the Old testament that it is prohibited.

Wrong. For the LORD has said to you, ‘You shall not return that way again.’ 17 Neither shall he multiply wives for himself, lest his heart turn away; nor shall he greatly multiply silver and gold for himself. Deuteronomy 17:16-17 NKJV

The Bible also says, "The TWO (not three or more) shall become one flesh.."

Nowhere in the Bible are gay unions or gay marriages approved by God or seen in a positive light.

Well, you certainly know how to take the words of God out of context. Duet 17:16-17 was a historian that was warning about the habit of using marriages to foreigners as a method of gaining allies. This passage presupposes Solomon's
horse trading and wives for political purposes (kings 23:21-23 and Kings 11.1-8), and was warning against them.

You really should pay more attention to the Word of God, and not corrupt it so much.

Do not take multiple wives or else your heart will be lead astray. How is that political? It's stating that having multiple wives will lead one's heart to become corrupted. If it applies to a king, than it can apply to anyone, for a king is a man just like anyone else. Why do you make the very strong assumption that he's corrupting the word? Are you saying it because you truly believe he is, or are you saying it just to make yourself look better and to provoke him in anger?

[Goat]

Do not take multiple wives or else your heart will be lead astray. How is that political? It's stating that having multiple wives will lead one's heart to become corrupted. If it applies to a king, than it can apply to anyone, for a king is a man just like anyone else. Why do you make the very strong assumption that he's corrupting the word? Are you saying it because you truly believe he is, or are you saying it just to make yourself look better and to provoke him in anger?

Why don't you read it in context, and read some proper commentary along with it.

I suggest you get the Jewish Study Bible.

[Easyrider]

Were David and Solomon sinless? Does God point out every single one of our sins to us? Just because the very forefathers of Judaism and Christianity had multiple wives, that doesn't make it acceptable. The bible doesn't tell you to follow in the ways of Abraham, Jacob, David and Solomon, it tells you to follow in the ways of God. Having multiple wives is a form of adultery. If you are married to one, but you are attracted to another, it is adultery. Jesus makes this all very clear.

No, but in the Old testament, we have examples of where multiple wives are allowed, and no restrictions in the Old testament that it is prohibited.

Wrong. For the LORD has said to you, ‘You shall not return that way again.’ 17 Neither shall he multiply wives for himself, lest his heart turn away; nor shall he greatly multiply silver and gold for himself. Deuteronomy 17:16-17 NKJV

The Bible also says, "The TWO (not three or more) shall become one flesh.."

Nowhere in the Bible are gay unions or gay marriages approved by God or seen in a positive light.

Well, you certainly know how to take the words of God out of context. Duet 17:16-17 was a historian that was warning about the habit of using marriages to foreigners as a method of gaining allies. This passage presupposes Solomon's
horse trading and wives for political purposes (kings 23:21-23 and Kings 11.1-8), and was warning against them.

You really should pay more attention to the Word of God, and not corrupt it so much.

Get real. In Genesis 2:24 it says, “Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife; and they shall be one flesh.” The scripture says wife, in the singular, and not wives in the plural. A little chink in your armor.