Why Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah

[cnorman18]

A word before I begin:

This post is NOT an attack on Christianity.

Jews, as a rule, do not comment on the truth or falsehood of any other faith, and that includes the Christian faith; we have no right. We only claim to know how God chose to speak to US. If He chose to speak to another people in another manner, that is no business of ours, and we have no warrant to say yea or nay. Only in the matter of literally worshiping idols as divine beings do we pronounce judgment, and that is rather rare in the modern world.

In my own, personal belief, Jesus was indeed sent by God to bring the light of Torah to the rest of the world. The Jews will always be "a small people"--the Book says so--and surely the rest of the was not meant to be left in the darkness of paganism. If not for Jesus, and perhaps even more for Paul, my own Celtic ancestors might have continued to paint themselves blue and worship trees.

The battle has never been between Christians and Jews, anyway. We are on the same side. On the other side are today's pagans--those who worship things; money, power, fame, gratification, status. May we both always remember that.

This post is on the rather more limited topic of why the Jews did not, and do not, accept Jesus as our Messiah. That some few have, and do, does not matter. Peace to them, but there are reasons why very few Jews who are familiar with and committed to their faith and tradition ever have, or ever will, believe in Jesus. This post is an effort to explain some of the most important.

To begin, then; Jesus, to put it plainly, simply did not perform the very specific actions that the Messiah was expected to do. There can be no "wiggle room" here; the tradition has been constant for thousands of years, and has not changed.

It is not that there were certain "prophecies" that the Messiah had to "fulfill"; the Messiah was DEFINED by certain acts. To do them was to be the Messiah, and the meaning of the word "Messiah" was "the man who does these things."

Jesus did not do them. He was not the Messiah. There is no "therefore," because the phrases are synonymous.

Further, Jesus claimed (or it was claimed for him) that he had power and authority that no Jew could or would claim for any man, far beyond any that were ever attributed to the coming Messiah; and he took on a role that no Jew, at any time from Abraham forward, had ever contemplated that any man, Messiah or no, would ever be called upon to fulfill. There was no need for it.

Jesus fulfilled one and only one attribute of the Messiah; he was of the tribe of Judah. Much is made of this in two of the Gospels, Matthew and Luke, with elaborate genealogies given for Mary, and, oddly, for Joseph.

Other than that, St.
Paul and the Gospels to the contrary, Jesus did nothing expected of the Messiah. Three such expectations will suffice for our purposes: (1) The Messiah was to be a military, or at least a political, leader, an actual, rightful King. (2) He would restore the independence of Israel and free it from foreign (at the time, Roman) rule. (3) Most importantly, he would institute a reign of perfect peace, justice, liberty and piety that would shortly extend over all the earth.

It seems rather clear that none of these occurred; most glaringly the last, which was and has always been the most important sign and task of the Messiah (The short answer, for many Jews, to the question "Why don't you believe in Jesus?" is "Oy! Look around!").

The Messiah was the coming King who would restore the line of David, free Israel, and being peace to the world; he would institute the Messianic Age. He was named for it, and it would be named for him. The two would come together, or not at all. They were one.

At the end of Jesus's life, these things had not happened. The Messiah had not come.

As if all that wasn't enough, Jesus, or his followers, made claims for him that were alien to Judaism, and in fact often blasphemous from a Jewish point of view. For starters, that Jesus was God incarnate.

It would be hard to think of an idea more repugnant to Jews, then or now. The oldest and most fundamental and nonnegotiable tenet of Judaism is that God is One, which means a good deal more than "one God." Among other things, it means that God is unique and indivisible, and shares His Essence and Being with no one and nothing.

It would be easier for Jews to begin chowing down on ham-and-Swiss sandwiches than to accept the claim that a man could be, in any sense, God. The Messiah was never conceived to be anything other than an ordinary mortal man; anointed by God, to be sure, but no more a God himself than King David was. There is no hint of such a thing in any Jewish tradition; it is about as likely as the High Priest carving a stone idol and placing it in the Holy of Holies. It was, and remains, quite literally unthinkable.

Second, Jesus was said to be the literal son of God. This was way beyond bizarre. The idea that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of Moses and Sinai, could or would come down to earth and father a human child is as foreign to Judaism as temple prostitution. That is a Greek idea, not a Jewish one--consider Zeus had Hercules--and it may be no coincidence that Paul was speaking to Greeks, not Jews, when he formulated it. There has never been anything within a light-year of that idea anywhere in all the enormous tradition and long history of the Jewish people. It is, again, unthinkable:

Third, Jesus claimed the power and authority to forgive sins.

All sins.

Now this is difficult, because this is not widely known: Jews do not believe that God Himself has that power. God can forgive sins against Himself--ritual offenses, broken vows, and so on--but no more; a sin against another human must be forgiven by that person, or not at all. (This is why there can be no forgiveness for murder. The only one with the power to forgive is dead. This is also why the Jews of today cannot "forgive" the Holocaust. You must ask the six million for that forgiveness; we have no right to give it.)

By claiming this power, Jesus was not claiming to be coequal with God, but in fact greater than God. No wonder some tore their robes when they heard him speak.

And again, as if all this were not enough--it is claimed that Jesus was the sacrifice that saves all men from their sins, and that this salvation is accessed by believing in it.

This seems simple; but for Jews, there are no less than six separate problems here.

First, the idea that people need to be saved from their sins. Jews have never believed in "Original Sin," or that all people are born sinful. We believe that everyone has an impulse to do good, and an impulse to do evil, and that these remain with us all our lives; our job is to follow the first and resist the second to the best of our ability.

Second, St. Paul to the contrary, Jews have never taught, nor do we believe, that we are obligated to fulfill "the whole of the Law" or face eternal damnation. We believe that, since God made us, He knows our imperfection and our weakness, and does not demand that we be perfect and without fault or flaw. That would be the act of an unjust God, and we do not believe that God is unjust.

Third, Jews do not believe that any human can bear the sins of another. That principle is underlined in the Torah over and over again. Each man bears his own sins, and that cannot be changed.

Fourth, we do not believe that a "sacrifice" is necessary to obtain forgiveness for sins, whether animal or human (and the idea of a human sacrifice is so far from any Jewish belief or practice that it is barely comprehensible that anyone would even propose it as a possibility). It is true that animal sacrifices were performed in the Tabernacle and later in the Temple, but it is clear throughout the Torah and the Prophets that the sacrifice itself was meaningless without the repentance and devotion of the individual human heart.

Fifth, in Judaism, "belief" accomplishes precisely nothing by itself. There is no Creed in Judaism, no specified set of acceptable beliefs. What one "believes" is all but insignificant next to what one does, and no amount of "belief" cancels or ameliorates the results of one's actions. Believing the proper "doctrines" in Judaism is utterly irrelevant to anything at all.

Put simply: if I am in need, what do I care what you "believe"? Will you help me, or not? Nothing else matters.

Sixth, Jews are not even certain that there is a Heaven at all. Judaism has rather little concern with the afterlife; it isn't mentioned in the Torah, and belief in it seems to have been entirely absent from its teachings in the early years of our religion. Even those Jews who do believe in Heaven spend little time or energy thinking and talking about it. The point of the Jewish religion is THIS life. The next, we leave to God.

As you can see, though Judaism and Christianity share an ethic, basic values, and many religious practices, our views of the nature and structure of the relationship between God and man, the nature and importance of sin and the means of its forgiveness, the significance of the afterlife, and many other matters, are so different that they really do constitute entirely separate religions. That one was derived from the other, and that we share a large body of Scripture, no longer matters. We stand beside each other as brothers; but we have long since taken separate paths. We ought to respect one another and work together where our ideals and ethics converge--which is almost everywhere. Where our beliefs differ, we should agree to disagree and leave each other alone.

One more note: It is wholly illegitimate and improper for a follower of any faith to attempt to dictate to a follower of another what his beliefs OUGHT to be, then castigate him because they do not follow his prescription. No one has any warrant to point out passages of "prophecy" in our own Scriptures that we do not, and have never, read as such, and overrule the traditions and beliefs that we have held for more than three thousand years--and tell us what we ought to think and believe. No one has that right.

We have no warrant to deny that Jesus is your Savior, or to deny that, for you, any belief you may hold about him is true. That is between you and God, and is none of our business.

But in the same way, it is not your right to insist that we abandon our own beliefs and convictions in favor of an understanding of our own Scriptures that we have never held.

Thank you for reading. May we all work together for the good of the Kingdom of God and forgive each other our disagreements.

I'll close with a saying from the Talmud. When the sages of old disagreed and could find no way to reconcile their differences, they would often allow both rulings to stand as equally acceptable options in Jewish law. When asked how this was possible, it was said that "When Elijah comes, he will explain which of us was right--or why we both were."

Peace to all.

Charles

[Dionysus]

You know - just know - they're going to cite 'Jews For Jesus' as incontrovertible proof of the legitimacy of their particular form of Jewish heresy.

You were warned!

[advil]

Hello.

I am not trying to dictate, only presenting what I have received... for this reason it would be impossible to respond without quoting what I believe is truth

In response to your six problems with salvation through Christ:

1. Then why the need for animal sacrifices? Isn't it true that those who did the sacrifices through faith, honored the idea that the Messiah would come to wash away the sin of those who believed in Him?

2. "For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus." - Philippians 1:6

3. But Christ overcame all that we could not. He presented Himself as the perfect sacrifice according to the Father's will. The story of Abraham and Isaac foreshadows this. Abraham said, "God will provide for Himself the lamb for the burnt offering, my son." - Genesis 22:8. That lamb being Christ.

4. Again going back to the story of Abraham and Isaac, God also demonstrated how hard it is to give up one's own son because he loves him so much. But then we have the famous passage from the Gospel of John: "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

I completely agree with your second sentence.

5. Same in Christianity: "But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love." - 1 Corinthians 13:13

6. That is new to me, thanks for sharing.

In addition, I believe that Christ came to the firstborns, so that He may personally present His love to them in a form of a King-Servant-Man-God. Quite amazing!

To your closing statement, I wish that we Christians would take an example of that. I do see a lot of argument of different views going on and about and not recognizing that God is above all, and it is His will that will be done...

[Goat]

Hello.

I am not trying to dictate, only presenting what I have received... for this reason it would be impossible to respond without quoting what I believe is truth

In response to your six problems with salvation through Christ:

1. Then why the need for animal sacrifices? Isn't it true that those who did the sacrifices through faith, honored the idea that the Messiah would come to wash away the sin of those who believed in Him?

Animal sacrifices were not needed for atonement, and indeed were not even
the preferred method. Indeed, since animal sacrifice was only at the temple, there were many communities too far away to be able to do that , so prayer, sacrifices of money or cereal were the norm.

2. "For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus." - Philippians 1:6

To the people of the Jewish faith, quoting from the New Testament is irrelevant.

3. But Christ overcame all that we could not. He presented Himself as the perfect sacrifice according to the Father's will. The story of Abraham and Isaac foreshadows this. Abraham said, "God will provide for Himself the lamb for the burnt offering, my son." - Genesis 22:8. That lamb being Christ.

That is the Christian belief. However, the story of Abraham and Isaac does the exact opposite. The story shows that Human Sacrifice, such as what Jesus was supposed to have been, is not acceptable to God. The interpretation that "Jesus is the Lamb of God' is very pagan, and would not be accepted by people of the
Jewish faith.

4. Again going back to the story of Abraham and Isaac, God also demonstrated how hard it is to give up one's own son because he loves him so much. But then we have the famous passage from the Gospel of John: "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

That is the hope of the Christians. That is not part of the Jewish faith. There is no need for a human sacrifice, or a sacrifice of a man/god. Why have a sacrifice for
something that people already have? From a Jewish perspective, that does not make sense at all. You either have eternal life, or no on does. One view of Heaven
in the Jewish faith is recorded in the Zohar (written in the 12th century). In it, all souls that are not worthy of the world to come go to ghenna for up to 1 year to be
purified. If they are unable to be purified, they are given the mercy of obliviation, else they join the 'world to come'.

Other Jewish groups do not believe in an after life at all. The purpose of the Jewish laws and restrictions is to live a sanctified life, and become close to god by living properly.

[Assent]

If not for Jesus, and perhaps even more for Paul, my own Celtic ancestors might have continued to paint themselves blue and worship trees.

I've got some bad news for you...




For me, truly, it has always been more about the message than the format. More about what Jesus said than what others said about him. Some morals have been true throughout time: do not commit murder, do not take what is not yours, try to avoid harming or offending others. And yet we must repeat these truisms over and over again, since we are apparently incapable of remembering them. And yet we hold those of us who will tell these things to us above us as examples, still we cross our own lines.

But perhaps that is for the best. Right and wrong must both exist for right to be defined, and where would hope be without adversity?

Peace to all.

Charles

And with you, peace.

[Cogitoergosum]

I'm going to start by saying thank you for the quick overview of jewish believes, some of them i knew, some were new to me, so it was helpful, again thanks.

you are being a little hard on your celtic ancestors, and on pagans in general. As you should know, pagans are not stone worshipers like the christians would have you believe. Where do you think christians got their religious concepts?
From pagan religions but they coated with judaic topings to make it more palatable to jews. Concepts of heaven and hell, Gods bearing human sons, same God manifesting in multiple ways (the schizophrenia of the trinity).... all these are pagan concepts.

Except for a Belief in a Creator judaism shares nothing with christianity it sounds like.
And please your common goals with christianity (ie morals, kindness,...) were concepts that were present way before christianity and judaism. Morals have been evolving with our evolution, no religion can take credit for that.

[jgh7]

That was a very long post. I'll just comment about the part where you say that the only prophecy Jesus fulfilled was that he was of the tribe of Judah. This to me is just a flat out lie. There are many prophecies that he fulfilled.

Isaiah 53
1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.

8 By oppression [a] and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken.

9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes [c] his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

11 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life [d] and be satisfied [e] ;
by his knowledge [f] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, [g]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong, [h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.


What do you interpret this to be? It does seem to say that Jesus was to sacrifice himself as a guilt offering and bear our sins. He would be pierced for our transgressions. He was to be cut off from life but then God will bring him to see the light of life again. In other words, the resurrection of Christ. This entire chapter is describing Christ right on the money. How can you say that there are no prophecies that he has fulfilled.

I know that he hasn't fulfilled the ones that you wanted him to, but it doesn't seem like one can be both despised by mankind and lead to the slaughter and be reigning with peace at the same time. The second comming makes perfect sense to me when Jesus will finish everything and establish his kingdom of justice and peace.

I'm a messianic Jew. I'm wondering if you have ever even bothered to read any of the Gospels to see what kind of person Jesus was and what acts he did. Any Jew has the right to believe in Jesus even if people like you and the rest of the Jewish society condemn them for it. I think you've demonstrated from some of your assumptions that youre purposely trying to make Jesus look bad even if it means lying, just as the pharisees did. The strong influence from tradition often clouds people's minds.

[Goat]

That was a very long post. I'll just comment about the part where you say that the only prophecy Jesus fulfilled was that he was of the tribe of Judah. This to me is just a flat out lie. There are many prophecies that he fulfilled.

Isaiah 53
1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.

8 By oppression [a] and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken.

9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes [c] his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

11 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life [d] and be satisfied [e] ;
by his knowledge [f] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, [g]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong, [h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.


What do you interpret this to be? It does seem to say that Jesus was to sacrifice himself as a guilt offering and bear our sins. He would be pierced for our transgressions. He was to be cut off from life but then God will bring him to see the light of life again. In other words, the resurrection of Christ. This entire chapter is describing Christ right on the money. How can you say that there are no prophecies that he has fulfilled.

I know that he hasn't fulfilled the ones that you wanted him to, but it doesn't seem like one can be both despised by mankind and lead to the slaughter and be reigning with peace at the same time. The second comming makes perfect sense to me when Jesus will finish everything and establish his kingdom of justice and peace.

I'm a messianic Jew. I'm wondering if you have ever even bothered to read any of the Gospels to see what kind of person Jesus was and what acts he did. Any Jew has the right to believe in Jesus even if people like you and the rest of the Jewish society condemn them for it. I think you've demonstrated from some of your assumptions that youre purposely trying to make Jesus look bad even if it means lying, just as the pharisees did. The strong influence from tradition often clouds people's minds.

Well, there is no such thing as a messanic Jew. If you are 'messanic' you aren't Jewish.

As for Isaiah 53.. if you read it IN CONTEXT, it is not talking about Jesus. The servant is being talked about in perfect tense , which means a completed action, not an imperfect tense, which could be either current or future. So sorry, but
when something is written 700 years before Jesus, and is in perfect tense, it is not talking about the future.

You are the most Calvinistic of anybody I know of allegedly Jewish heritage. I don't get any sense of Jewish tradition or heritage in your world view.

[jgh7]

That was a very long post. I'll just comment about the part where you say that the only prophecy Jesus fulfilled was that he was of the tribe of Judah. This to me is just a flat out lie. There are many prophecies that he fulfilled.

Isaiah 53
1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.

8 By oppression [a] and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken.

9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes [c] his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

11 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life [d] and be satisfied [e] ;
by his knowledge [f] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, [g]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong, [h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.


What do you interpret this to be? It does seem to say that Jesus was to sacrifice himself as a guilt offering and bear our sins. He would be pierced for our transgressions. He was to be cut off from life but then God will bring him to see the light of life again. In other words, the resurrection of Christ. This entire chapter is describing Christ right on the money. How can you say that there are no prophecies that he has fulfilled.

I know that he hasn't fulfilled the ones that you wanted him to, but it doesn't seem like one can be both despised by mankind and lead to the slaughter and be reigning with peace at the same time. The second comming makes perfect sense to me when Jesus will finish everything and establish his kingdom of justice and peace.

I'm a messianic Jew. I'm wondering if you have ever even bothered to read any of the Gospels to see what kind of person Jesus was and what acts he did. Any Jew has the right to believe in Jesus even if people like you and the rest of the Jewish society condemn them for it. I think you've demonstrated from some of your assumptions that youre purposely trying to make Jesus look bad even if it means lying, just as the pharisees did. The strong influence from tradition often clouds people's minds.

Well, there is no such thing as a messanic Jew. If you are 'messanic' you aren't Jewish.

As for Isaiah 53.. if you read it IN CONTEXT, it is not talking about Jesus. The servant is being talked about in perfect tense , which means a completed action, not an imperfect tense, which could be either current or future. So sorry, but
when something is written 700 years before Jesus, and is in perfect tense, it is not talking about the future.

You are the most Calvinistic of anybody I know of allegedly Jewish heritage. I don't get any sense of Jewish tradition or heritage in your world view.

Read verses 11 and on. You will see that they are speaking in future tense. But the fact that you want to appeal to some sort of perfect grammar requirement is evidence enough that youre desperately looking for some way to get out of this. This prophecy to me is describing Jesus head on. And all you have to say is that the tense of the sentences was not proper, even though that in itself is a lie since some of the tenses are written in future. Perhaps you could give an argument that actually has to do with what was being prophesized rather than you wanting it to be perfectly grammatically correct.

I don't care what you view me as. You are not the authority of what it means to be Jewish.

[Goat]

That was a very long post. I'll just comment about the part where you say that the only prophecy Jesus fulfilled was that he was of the tribe of Judah. This to me is just a flat out lie. There are many prophecies that he fulfilled.

Isaiah 53
1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.

8 By oppression [a] and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken.

9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes [c] his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

11 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life [d] and be satisfied [e] ;
by his knowledge [f] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, [g]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong, [h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.


What do you interpret this to be? It does seem to say that Jesus was to sacrifice himself as a guilt offering and bear our sins. He would be pierced for our transgressions. He was to be cut off from life but then God will bring him to see the light of life again. In other words, the resurrection of Christ. This entire chapter is describing Christ right on the money. How can you say that there are no prophecies that he has fulfilled.

I know that he hasn't fulfilled the ones that you wanted him to, but it doesn't seem like one can be both despised by mankind and lead to the slaughter and be reigning with peace at the same time. The second comming makes perfect sense to me when Jesus will finish everything and establish his kingdom of justice and peace.

I'm a messianic Jew. I'm wondering if you have ever even bothered to read any of the Gospels to see what kind of person Jesus was and what acts he did. Any Jew has the right to believe in Jesus even if people like you and the rest of the Jewish society condemn them for it. I think you've demonstrated from some of your assumptions that youre purposely trying to make Jesus look bad even if it means lying, just as the pharisees did. The strong influence from tradition often clouds people's minds.

Well, there is no such thing as a messanic Jew. If you are 'messanic' you aren't Jewish.

As for Isaiah 53.. if you read it IN CONTEXT, it is not talking about Jesus. The servant is being talked about in perfect tense , which means a completed action, not an imperfect tense, which could be either current or future. So sorry, but
when something is written 700 years before Jesus, and is in perfect tense, it is not talking about the future.

You are the most Calvinistic of anybody I know of allegedly Jewish heritage. I don't get any sense of Jewish tradition or heritage in your world view.

Read verses 11 and on. You will see that they are speaking in future tense. But the fact that you want to appeal to some sort of perfect grammar requirement is evidence enough that youre desperately looking for some way to get out of this. This prophecy to me is describing Jesus head on. And all you have to say is that the tense of the sentences was not proper, even though that in itself is a lie since some of the tenses are written in future. Perhaps you could give an argument that actually has to do with what was being prophesized rather than you wanting it to be perfectly grammatically correct.

I don't care what you view me as. You are not the authority of what it means to be Jewish.

Yes,,.. some is in future tense.. but I don't see Jesus'es life being 'extended'..

Isaiah 53 just does not fit Jesus at all.