I have researched this myself and created a similar post in the holy huddle room. But I open it up for general discussion.
1) What exactly must be done to be saved?
2) What is the criteria used by God to determine judgement?
3) Who will be saved?
4) Who will NOT be saved?
Criteria for salvation; what must we do?
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Criteria for salvation; what must we do?
Post #1It is a first class human tragedy that people of the earth who claim to believe in the message of Jesus, whom they describe as the Prince of Peace, show little of that belief in actual practice.
God's creation: perfect or imperfect?
Post #21Those who accuse God of creating an imperfect world are mistaken. He created this universe in perfection. Adam and Eve were perfect with a free will. They misused that free will to sin, and lost the perfect freedom of their wills in the process. Before that, Lucifer became Satan when he sinned through pride after his creation (Isaiah 14; Ezekiel 28). God permitted sin to enter the universe but He never was or is the author of sin. The time is coming when He will abolish sin and death, consigning both to the Lake of Fire, and create a new pure restored and indeed enhanced universe for people to enjoy.
Re: God's creation: perfect or imperfect?
Post #22You made a statement and then listed multiple reasons why that statement can't possibly be true.logiet wrote:Those who accuse God of creating an imperfect world are mistaken. He created this universe in perfection. .....
Either the creation is perfect or the creation is imperfect. If a perfect creator built a machine that decided on it's own to embrace error, one can not blame the machine: it was designed that way.
The proof that the Christian "God" is contrived construct and the concept of salvation is a confidence scheme lies in merely understanding the "Word". When the texts and concepts that underlie Christianity are approached in an objective manner the fallacy is clear. Anything that embodies self-contradiction is by deduction false. The post from which I quoted is text-book self-contradiction.
Christians need "saving", alright. They need saving from delusion that illogic is tenable.
Re: All are "saved"
Post #23If you believe in God then you must believe as the scriptures indicate that it says nothing about souls being created perfect.Greatest I Am wrote:If you believe in god then you must believe as scripture indicates, that all of His works are Perfect.
All souls are therefore Perfect.
All souls therefore are destined for Heaven.
This is as it should be.
Re: God's creation: perfect or imperfect?
Post #24If you are referring to the Biblical God and Biblical creation....where does it state that they were perfect?logiet wrote:Those who accuse God of creating an imperfect world are mistaken. He created this universe in perfection. Adam and Eve were perfect with a free will.
Re: All are "saved"
Post #25Doesn't this raise the question of how a "perfect" creator could form an imperfect creation? Did the creator purposefully err through malevolence? Or is the creator merely an imperfect construct of a Bronze Age society?twobitsmedia wrote: If you believe in God then you must believe as the scriptures indicate that it says nothing about souls being created perfect.
I think William of Occam is perhaps our best reference at this point.
Last edited by Rathpig on Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: God's creation: perfect or imperfect?
Post #26Rathpig wrote:
Either the creation is perfect or the creation is imperfect. If a perfect creator built a machine that decided on it's own to embrace error, one can not blame the machine: it was designed that way.
Though our motivations for saying so may be different, I will have to say that I agree with your statement. Man was NOT designed perfect. At best, He was described as "good." That is a far cry from perfection. Even "pretty good"" would have been an improvement.
Re: All are "saved"
Post #27Rathpig wrote:twobitsmedia wrote: If you believe in God then you must believe as the scriptures indicate that it says nothing about souls being created perfect.It does raise the question. The answer, I believe, is that the creative process is still going on. He did it all purposefully.Doesn't this raise the question of how a "perfect" creator could form an imperfect creation? Did the creator purposefully err through malevolence? Or is the creator merely an imperfect construct of a Bronze Age society?
Re: All are "saved"
Post #28Isn't that a rather strange kludge given the context of this thread?twobitsmedia wrote: It does raise the question. The answer, I believe, is that the creative process is still going on. He did it all purposefully.
Am I to believe that a "perfect" creator purposefully fudged the creation, then threw a hissy-fit about it, did some cursing, flooded the world, cursed some more, created a convoluted human sacrifice scenario, and expects anyone with a calm and reasonable nature to accept what is possibly the dumbest story anyone finds "true"?
To add to this woefully fabricated tale, you obtain the salvation prize via telepathic communication with an undead, that's a zombie by-the-way, son of a virgin who preached peace, love, and damnation in the Roman-occupied Middle East where he met a torturous fate because his own people rejected his totally unbelievable story.
Now in 2007, to answer the questions that obviously undermine the entire fantasy, we are expected to believe that in evolution?
Cool, I understand the evolution part, so let's Occam out the superfluous elements of Bronze Age myth, embrace a humanistic outlook, and try to survive long enough to evolve to a higher level. If there was a god, that is what god would do.
Re: All are "saved"
Post #29You can believe whatever you want. But even I dont believe what you just wrote.Rathpig wrote:
Am I to believe that a "perfect" creator purposefully fudged the creation, then threw a hissy-fit about it, did some cursing, flooded the world, cursed some more, created a convoluted human sacrifice scenario, and expects anyone with a calm and reasonable nature to accept what is possibly the dumbest story anyone finds "true"?
I have no idea what you are referring to.To add to this woefully fabricated tale, you obtain the salvation prize via telepathic communication with an undead, that's a zombie by-the-way, son of a virgin who preached peace, love, and damnation in the Roman-occupied Middle East where he met a torturous fate because his own people rejected his totally unbelievable story.
Umm, yeaah, still don't know what you are referring to.Now in 2007, to answer the questions that obviously undermine the entire fantasy, we are expected to believe that in evolution?
Though I am lost on the other diatribe, how do you know what a god would do?If there was a god, that is what god would do.
Re: All are "saved"
Post #30... gave man free willRathpig wrote: Am I to believe that a "perfect" creator purposefully fudged the creation
..."because God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually"Rathpig wrote:flooded the world
"To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen"Rathpig wrote:created a convoluted human sacrifice scenario
Do you have any evidence to support this claim?Rathpig wrote: To add to this woefully fabricated tale
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God"Rathpig wrote:you obtain the salvation prize via telepathic communication
The undead never die. Jesus died and was raised from the dead. "Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him"Rathpig wrote:with an undead, that's a zombie by-the-way
"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God"
Not bad!Rathpig wrote:son of a virgin who preached peace, love, and damnation in the Roman-occupied Middle East where he met a torturous fate because his own people rejected his totally unbelievable story