Who's side is God on?

[achilles12604]

I had an ephinany in church today. I believe I have decided for myself who's side God is on.

But I wanted to throw this out into the water and see where it goes for a bit first.


So the question for debate is this. . .


Who's side is God on? What makes you believe that this is true?

[Easyrider]

So you see Easyrider that christianity has been stagnant for the last 10 years at least while islam grew. If your God is saving more hindus and budhists it seems also your God is making more christians defect. And non religious jumped from 2.1% to 16% OH MY GOD what's going on? Yahweh is loosing it.

Depends on if you want to consider the milk-toast (liberal) Christians or conservative Christians.

The most recent “Religious Congregations and Membership” study, published in 2000 (the study is conducted each decade) by the Glenmary Research Center, tells the statistical story. Progressive churches are progressing, it seems, ever closer to oblivion. The Presbyterian Church U.S.A. (11,106 churches) has experienced a decline of 11.6 percent over the previous ten years; the United Methodist Church (35,721 churches) was down 6.7 percent; and the Episcopal Church (7,314 churches) lost 5.3 percent of its membership. Also, the United Churches of Christ (5,863 churches) declined 14.8 percent while the American Baptist Churches USA were down 5.7 percent.

The denominations showing growth included the deeply conservative Southern Baptist Convention, a collection of 41,514 churches, whose overall growth rate was 5 percent. The traditionalist Presbyterian Church in America (as opposed the mainline Presbyterian Church U.S.A.) experienced an impressive 42.4 percent increase, while the Christian and Missionary Alliance rose 21.8 percent. Meanwhile, the Evangelical Free Church was up 57.2 percent, and Pentecostal denominations also boomed. The Assemblies of God, with 11,880 churches, saw 18.5 percent growth, while the Church of God, with 5,612 churches, saw growth of 40.2 percent.
What is behind this traditionalist rise and progressive decline? The New York Times, in its summary of the survey, noted, "Socially conservative churches that demand high commitment from their members grew faster than other religious denominations in the last decade…." Glenmary director Ken Sanchagrin told the paper he was “astounded to see that by and large the growing churches are those that we ordinarily call conservative. And when I looked at those that were declining, most were moderate or liberal churches. And the more liberal the denomination, by most people's definition, the more they were losing."
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/s ... 070747.asp

Following is a poll on widespread growth of Evangelism / Fundamentalism

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061005/ap_ ... stals_poll

But the Bible does foretell an age where apostasy and godlessness will increase (not that that's a good thing):

"But the Spirit saith expressly, that in later times some shall fall away from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils." - 1 Timothy 4:1

I honestly don't care much which part of the christian myth...

I don't recall you ever effectively establishing any "myth" concerning Christianity. Is that a theory of yours based on bias, or what?

Middle earth invaded by orcs then saved by elfs, seems like a nice story but a myth nonetheless.

Indeed it does. But what does that have to do with Biblical Christianity?

The fact is the number of people who referr to themselves as christians is still the same in a decade,and so your argument that god is saving more and more people is not true Master frodo.

"Master frodo"? Ah yes, by all means, go for the ad hominem.

If you think Christianity is in decline, let's look at your vaunted atheism:

The Decline of Atheism

According to Munich theologian Wolfhart Pannenberg, "Atheism as a theoretical position is in decline worldwide."

According to Oxford's Alister McGrath, Atheism's "future seems increasingly to lie in the private beliefs of individuals rather than in the great public domain it once regarded as its habitat," Christianity Today.

Reasons cited for the decline of atheism include:

Substantive challenges to naturalistic explanations for the origin of life;
Substantive challenges to psychological theories viewing religion as a pathology, and a scientific demonstration of the health benefits of a spiritual life;
Philosophical challenges to the presuppositions and axioms of atheism, such as materialism;
The decline of Marxism and Leninism;
Tenuousness of belief in atheism by many of its own believers;
Reduction in atheism and resurgence of theistic belief worldwide;
Inhuman acts committed by atheists throughout the 20th century;

Mass exodus from atheism worldwide

Christianity is growing in former atheistic strongholds like the former Soviet Union and China. Currently, Christianity is growing very quickly in China. According to Christianity Today, at a conservative estimate there are currently about 70 million Christians in China out of 1.3 billion Chinese. [9] According to David Aikman, former Beijing Bureau chief for Time magazine, former PRC President Jiang Zemen has identified Christianity as the secret of the West’s success, and he wants to bring such success to the Chinese people.[10] Mr. Aikman predicts that as many as 1/3 of the Chinese will convert to Christianity within the next generation.[11] Of course, the transformation of China into being a more Christian country may affect other nations in Asia and thus convert more professed atheists.

The world is obviously a far smaller place now and it seems that the areas of the world where atheism and secularism have their greatest strength are in decline. For example, economic and political commentator Robert J. Samuelson wrote a very compelling article called The End of Europe where he argues that European influence in the world will decline.[12] In an increasingly global community, of course, this is not good news for European atheism, which is likely to have less influence on the world. In addition, conservative Christianity, which is certainly evangelistic and asserting itself in the world's public intellectual arena, is growing in the USA and especially in the Third World. (For the growth of conservative Christianity in the USA, see the book Exodus: Why Americans are Fleeing Liberal Churches for Conservative Christianity by Dave Shiflett). Since, generally speaking, liberal theologians are more likely to embrace materialist ideas, such as macroevolution, this of course means that fewer Christians are likely to support these ideas, which will reduce the influence of atheism.

http://creationwiki.org/Decline_of_atheism

Seems to me like your own house of cards is in a meltdown, Cogitoergosum.

[jamesearl]

Seems to me like your own house of cards is in a meltdown, Cogitoergosum. Laughing

Your ignorance amazes me everyday.

All countries that was part of the formet Soviet Union was Christian (of various denominations), and some Muslim. Were do you get that they are atheist from?

Most people in China are Buddhist, which you can call "atheistic" if you want, but there are hardly any atheist (in noticable numbers) in Asia. Most of them are LIBERAL and OPEN MINDED with a Buddish or Daoist view of religion.

The only "atheist nations" i know about are the Scandinavian ones, and general Western Europe being highly secular. Were do you get this info from? Russia Atheist? China Atheist?

Are you joking me? Or you living in a different world?

[Cathar1950]

The Decline of Atheism

According to Munich theologian Wolfhart Pannenberg, "Atheism as a theoretical position is in decline worldwide."

According to Oxford's Alister McGrath, Atheism's "future seems increasingly to lie in the private beliefs of individuals rather than in the great public domain it once regarded as its habitat," Christianity Today.

So much for your prophesy from the false letter of Paul's.
I dont recall you ever effectively establishing that Christianity wasn't a myth but then I hardly think you understand myth.

[OnceConvinced]

Seems to me like your own house of cards is in a meltdown, Cogitoergosum. Laughing

Your ignorance amazes me everyday.

All countries that was part of the formet Soviet Union was Christian (of various denominations), and some Muslim. Were do you get that they are atheist from?

Most people in China are Buddhist, which you can call "atheistic" if you want, but there are hardly any atheist (in noticable numbers) in Asia. Most of them are LIBERAL and OPEN MINDED with a Buddish or Daoist view of religion.

The only "atheist nations" i know about are the Scandinavian ones, and general Western Europe being highly secular. Were do you get this info from? Russia Atheist? China Atheist?

Are you joking me? Or you living in a different world?

The thing about Russian countries (that many Christians don't realise), is that the only reason Christianity has grown there is because it was considered illegal before the fall of communism. It was a forbidden fruit and as soon as the people found that it was no longer illegal, they suddenly wanted to be part of it. It's human nature.

If drugs like Marijuana were legalised, we would find a heck of a lot more people smoking it. It's just the way of the world.

I don't think anyone can claim that just because Russia's Christian population has risen, that it's because of God working in that country.

[OpenedUp]

Easyrider, your source is from a CREATIONIST enclylopedia. Hardly an unbiased source. The funny thing is if you go to the normal wikipedia you will find that no "decline of atheism" article exists, and there are no others that support that claim. (Not that Wikipedia is the best source anyway)

[Cogitoergosum]

Mass exodus from atheism worldwide

Christianity is growing in former atheistic strongholds like the former Soviet Union and China. Currently, Christianity is growing very quickly in China. According to Christianity Today, at a conservative estimate there are currently about 70 million Christians in China out of 1.3 billion Chinese. [9] According to David Aikman, former Beijing Bureau chief for Time magazine, former PRC President Jiang Zemen has identified Christianity as the secret of the West’s success, and he wants to bring such success to the Chinese people.[10] Mr. Aikman predicts that as many as 1/3 of the Chinese will convert to Christianity within the next generation.[11] Of course, the transformation of China into being a more Christian country may affect other nations in Asia and thus convert more professed atheists.

The world is obviously a far smaller place now and it seems that the areas of the world where atheism and secularism have their greatest strength are in decline. For example, economic and political commentator Robert J. Samuelson wrote a very compelling article called The End of Europe where he argues that European influence in the world will decline.[12] In an increasingly global community, of course, this is not good news for European atheism, which is likely to have less influence on the world. In addition, conservative Christianity, which is certainly evangelistic and asserting itself in the world's public intellectual arena, is growing in the USA and especially in the Third World. (For the growth of conservative Christianity in the USA, see the book Exodus: Why Americans are Fleeing Liberal Churches for Conservative Christianity by Dave Shiflett). Since, generally speaking, liberal theologians are more likely to embrace materialist ideas, such as macroevolution, this of course means that fewer Christians are likely to support these ideas, which will reduce the influence of atheism.

http://creationwiki.org/Decline_of_atheism

Seems to me like your own house of cards is in a meltdown, Cogitoergosum.

Some people just make it too easy.
Russia always was orthodox christian until the communists suppressed religion, that did not make them atheists, only frustrated christians and now they are unleaching out. Never was china an atheist country in any person's mind excpet for the deeply religious with wishful thinking who want to see atheism on the decline.
i think you can see from the statistics i showed from non biased sources (unlike the nutheads at creation wiki) that people that refer to themselves as non religious jumped from 2.1% to 16%, if we are going to assume like the authors do that about half of these only are atheists that means atheism jumped from 1% to 8% in 10 years, an eightfold increase while christianity is STAGNANT.
And again Easyrider, if your creation wiki is true and there has been mass exodus from atheism to christianity, that means that there also has been mass exodus from christianity to another religion. As the number of christians in the last ten years IS STILL THE SAME. so numbers of extra souls yahweh saved is ZERO. I mean you can try different approaches but the fact is you are hanging yourself with each argument.

[twobitsmedia]

Easyrider, your source is from a CREATIONIST enclylopedia. Hardly an unbiased source.

What? A creationist encyclopedia giving information on creationism? For shame. The next thing we will find is that the atheist encyclopedia give no inform
ation on it.......I cannot imagine.

"unbiased source"=the one I accept as fact

[Wyvern]

Easyrider, your source is from a CREATIONIST enclylopedia. Hardly an unbiased source.

What? A creationist encyclopedia giving information on creationism? For shame. The next thing we will find is that the atheist encyclopedia give no inform
ation on it.......I cannot imagine.

"unbiased source"=the one I accept as fact

Perhaps you should reread the quote. It is from creationwiki, a creationist/fundamentalist christian wikipedia clone. The article is on the supposed decline of atheism and the rise of christianity within former communist countries.

[achilles12604]

I had an ephinany in church today. I believe I have decided for myself who's side God is on.

But I wanted to throw this out into the water and see where it goes for a bit first.


So the question for debate is this. . .


Who's side is God on? What makes you believe that this is true?

Ok. Well since this is beginning to dissolve into "my source is better than yours" and "you are so ignorant" comments . . . I will come back in.

We are taught that god was on the side of Israel. Then he was on the side of Christianity. His true followers.

However, Going back over a few verses has made me realize that God is indeed on his own side. He is not a "defender" of any train of thought or belief. Modern Christianity seems to think that they are impervious because "god is watching over them."

Well this type of thought has existed before. Israel thought that God was watching over them. But God makes in clear he is on HIS side.

Joshua 5:13-15

The Fall of Jericho
13 Now when Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with a drawn sword in his hand. Joshua went up to him and asked, "Are you for us or for our enemies?"

14 "Neither," he replied, "but as commander of the army of the LORD I have now come."

Well he comes right out and says it . . . I am NOT for you. I am NOT for your enemy.

Revelation 5:8-10
8And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9And they sang a new song:
"You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased men for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth."

People are chosen from every nation. Well this must include the aborigine tribes of Australia right?

How about the Native American nations before Christianity was forced down their throats?

Perhaps God is not a defender of Tradition Christianity.


This goes back to a theme which has been HEAVY on my heart lately. Salvation. But then that is another thread already.

[Confused]

I had an ephinany in church today. I believe I have decided for myself who's side God is on.

But I wanted to throw this out into the water and see where it goes for a bit first.


So the question for debate is this. . .


Who's side is God on? What makes you believe that this is true?

Considering the amount of suffering, poverty, crime, genocide, pestilence, disease, wars, starvation, subjugation, rapes, molestations, etc.... that currently exist globally, I really have to wonder which side He is on as well. If I had to judge it based on humanity, I would have to say that God is on the side of those who would cause harm because He sure isn't providing much protection to those who are trying to do good. But this is strictly MHO.