Is universal Salvation possible? Does it make sense?

[achilles12604]

I think that Universal Salvation is possible. However, I do not think it makes an ounce of sense. If someone is in open rebellion to God because he hates him, and his actions cause pain and suffering around him on earth, why should this person be given the opportunity to enter heaven with the same people he hurt on earth?

If a murderer is given the death penalty, and then goes to heaven to be next to his victim, what justice is there in that? Is this Just? If it is NOT just, like I believe it not to be, then what does this say about God who authored this situation? He is not just. If God is not just, then why should I follow him?

[twobitsmedia]

I think that Universal Salvation is possible. However, I do not think it makes an ounce of sense. If someone is in open rebellion to God because he hates him, and his actions cause pain and suffering around him on earth, why should this person be given the opportunity to enter heaven with the same people he hurt on earth?

If a murderer is given the death penalty, and then goes to heaven to be next to his victim, what justice is there in that? Is this Just? If it is NOT just, like I believe it not to be, then what does this say about God who authored this situation? He is not just. If God is not just, then why should I follow him?

The very good thing about God is that He can see all. The murderer is obviously deranged and insane. Sane and rational people do not murder others. Why is he crazy? What happened to him? Is it genetic? Did he watch his own father beat his mother senseless each night when he was young? Did he grow up in a world where murder just isn't that big of a deal? Maybe he saw it all around him and grew up with the idea that life is not precious.

One of these options is likely. Good thing God knows what happened, and better yet, good thing He can forgive. AND bonus, if the murderer sees his victim, the victim will be able to forgive also. (love your enemies)

This is actually the epitome of justice.

Sorry, sounds a bit like social psychology and a bit of empathy for the perpetrator. Could I suggest than that we just take them out and shoot them right away so they can get the help they needs in the loving hands of God????

[justifyothers]

People like this are extremely few and far between. Usually something like this is pre-dated with severe mental disorders and is due to damage of the brain.

Do I think that a person's EMOTIONS can cause such a state? Absolutely NOT! Anger is not a viable excuse. Temporary insanity is a bogus concept invented by defense lawyers. It is a mask for extreme anger.

Brain damage? Perhaps. But the number of murders caused by someone sufferig from brain damage or an actual impairment of some sort is VERY VERY VERY low.

I can provide you with some stats about the insanity plea if you need further evidence.

If you murder somebody - you are insane, period. Sane people do not murder others. You may use the term 'evil', but they're still crazy.
What bogus 'claims' are made regarding this don't matter in terms of our discussion of topic. - crazy people kill!

You asked if universal salvation makes sense. While I'm still sometimes undecided about 'salvation' for all or just death for some. I can see how universal salvation makes good sense. If it doesn't seem 'just' to you....ask yourself why. Are you willing to forgive a murderer? Is God? Isn't this one of the main concepts taught by Jesus? Isn't forgiveness the whole point? Don't we help ourselves also when we forgive others?
Don't we trust God to be able to do so in His good judgement? It is possible that heaven starts a process of forgiveness. We just don't know.

[Zzyzx]

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Do I think that a person's EMOTIONS can cause such a state? Absolutely NOT! Anger is not a viable excuse. Temporary insanity is a bogus concept invented by defense lawyers. It is a mask for extreme anger.

Is there evidence that emotions CANNOT cause insanity OR is this a personal opinion? Is your opinion affected by being involved in law enforcement? By what definition of insanity is the statement true?

Is it impossible for intense, continuous FEAR (an emotion) to cause insanity?

Is Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome NOT capable of producing insanity?

Are there degrees of insanity – including depth as well as duration? Can a person be relatively “sane” and function in society but be unbalanced enough to be declared legally insane?

If you murder somebody - you are insane, period. Sane people do not murder others.

By what definition of insanity is this true? Is it a personal definition?

A legal definition of insanity (for defense argument) is basically an inability to tell right from wrong. Is this an incorrect definition?

Murders sometimes attempt to claim the “insanity defense”, but are not often successful. By assuming “anyone who murders is insane”, ALL murders standing trial would be “not guilty by reason of insanity”.

Mental health professionals regard insanity as something like: “a disconnection from reality” (which incurs the burden of establishing the meaning of “reality”.
http://www.psychosurgery.org/2005/03/define-insane.html

Are you familiar with the case of the BTK serial killer. He was a public official, church board president, scout leader, college graduate with a degree in administration of justice, “normal” guy – who tortured and killed at least ten people over a “career” of almost thirty years – who pleaded guilty and is serving ten consecutive life sentences (eligible for parole in 175 years).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BTK_killer

[justifyothers]

I think that Universal Salvation is possible. However, I do not think it makes an ounce of sense. If someone is in open rebellion to God because he hates him, and his actions cause pain and suffering around him on earth, why should this person be given the opportunity to enter heaven with the same people he hurt on earth?

If a murderer is given the death penalty, and then goes to heaven to be next to his victim, what justice is there in that? Is this Just? If it is NOT just, like I believe it not to be, then what does this say about God who authored this situation? He is not just. If God is not just, then why should I follow him?

The very good thing about God is that He can see all. The murderer is obviously deranged and insane. Sane and rational people do not murder others. Why is he crazy? What happened to him? Is it genetic? Did he watch his own father beat his mother senseless each night when he was young? Did he grow up in a world where murder just isn't that big of a deal? Maybe he saw it all around him and grew up with the idea that life is not precious.

One of these options is likely. Good thing God knows what happened, and better yet, good thing He can forgive. AND bonus, if the murderer sees his victim, the victim will be able to forgive also. (love your enemies)

This is actually the epitome of justice.

Sorry, sounds a bit like social psychology and a bit of empathy for the perpetrator. Could I suggest than that we just take them out and shoot them right away so they can get the help they needs in the loving hands of God????

You're a bible-believer, right?
"Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord." What does this mean to you? Sounds like you're saying vengeance should be yours. Does God mean that He'll get the SOB, or does He imply that it is not our concern - He will make right what is not. We are likely incapable of true justice.

Yes, there IS some degree of empathy for the perpetrator. In many cases this is due. But this does NOT mean no sympathy for the victim - can't it be both?

But, you didn't speak to the OP - do you think universal salvation makes sense? Do you believe in forgiveness? Who better to forgive than your enemy. Isn't this what Jesus teaches? Or do we ignore this scripture when it is convenient?

[justifyothers]

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If you murder somebody - you are insane, period. Sane people do not murder others.

By what definition of insanity is this true? Is it a personal definition?

A legal definition of insanity (for defense argument) is basically an inability to tell right from wrong. Is this an incorrect definition?

Murders sometimes attempt to claim the “insanity defense”, but are not often successful. By assuming “anyone who murders is insane”, ALL murders standing trial would be “not guilty by reason of insanity”.

Mental health professionals regard insanity as something like: “a disconnection from reality” (which incurs the burden of establishing the meaning of “reality”.
http://www.psychosurgery.org/2005/03/define-insane.html

Are you familiar with the case of the BTK serial killer. He was a public official, church board president, scout leader, college graduate with a degree in administration of justice, “normal” guy – who tortured and killed at least ten people over a “career” of almost thirty years – who pleaded guilty and is serving ten consecutive life sentences (eligible for parole in 175 years).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BTK_killer

He was clearly not 'normal' to inflict pain and suffering and eventually death to these victims. This is my point. He was insane. Could be caused by any number of emotions, experiences, pressures, environment, chemical imbalance, whatever the case, the guy was a psycho!

Outward appearances are sometimes deceiving, as we all know. He may have led a seemingly 'normal' life, but inside, something else was going on. Getting into law and defense will take us way off topic. Does universal salvation make sense to you? Can God forgive everybody? Should we?

[alexiarose]

I think that Universal Salvation is possible. However, I do not think it makes an ounce of sense. If someone is in open rebellion to God because he hates him, and his actions cause pain and suffering around him on earth, why should this person be given the opportunity to enter heaven with the same people he hurt on earth?

Any way I answer this will have each side breathing down my neck but since I just ticked off mom with Larrigator, I really don't care. I don't believe in universal salvation. I think we are judged based on what is in our hearts, not based one what we say or what we do. We can't really look at that person who we think is in open rebellion of God for His inaction and say that what is in their hearts is real hate and rejection or not. For a person who society would label as "immoral", the act that they commit may not have anything to do with God. If they have a disorder, then their actions may not reflect what is in their hearts. If they suffered as a child are now reacting as an adult, are there actions really reflective of what is in their hearts or are they more reflective of the pain of a child locked in an adults body.
I am not trying to justify the actions of these individuals. I am merely stating that I am learning that more often than not, the persons actions or words are usually the direct opposite of that which they feel in their hearts.

If a murderer is given the death penalty, and then goes to heaven to be next to his victim, what justice is there in that? Is this Just? If it is NOT just, like I believe it not to be, then what does this say about God who authored this situation? He is not just. If God is not just, then why should I follow him?

Is it any more just that the victims of this murderer are paying their taxes to support this murderer through all his appeals, his daily living, etc...? Lets see, should we expect a just world from nature but not from God. Or should we expect a Just world from God and not from nature?

I could give the standard cop out for this final question and say "well, if the murderer and the victim are both in heaven, then the victim had to have forgiven their enemy and the murderer had to have been given forgiveness as well, otherwise one or the other or neither would be in heaven for the conflict to exists". But then I run the risk of having someone point out some obscure fallacy and have it added to the "list of common theistic fallacies" so atheists don't have to waste their time responding. They can just cite their link when it is up an running.

[twobitsmedia]

You're a bible-believer, right?
"Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord." What does this mean to you? Sounds like you're saying vengeance should be yours. Does God mean that He'll get the SOB, or does He imply that it is not our concern - He will make right what is not. We are likely incapable of true justice.

Yes, there IS some degree of empathy for the perpetrator. In many cases this is due. But this does NOT mean no sympathy for the victim - can't it be both?

But, you didn't speak to the OP - do you think universal salvation makes sense? Do you believe in forgiveness? Who better to forgive than your enemy. Isn't this what Jesus teaches? Or do we ignore this scripture when it is convenient?

What vengeance? Your theology allows everyone into heaven because of Gods empathy. Might as well put the killers in His hands. I dont see it as vengeance in that light. Just helping along a cause. And, as always, I do not think universal salvation makes any sense. "do we ignore this scripture when it is convenient?" I thought this was the whole premise of your faith, from previous explanations. You only accept the parts you want. Has this changed?

[Zzyzx]

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He was clearly not 'normal' to inflict pain and suffering and eventually death to these victims. This is my point. He was insane.

If “not normal” qualifies as insane, there appear to be a lot of insane people – including perhaps members of this forum. I do not accept that definition and I have supplied some alternatives that are accepted in law and medicine.

Perhaps it would be useful to the discussion if you would supply the definition you are using of insane. Surely you don’t regard anyone who is “not normal” as being insane, do you?

Could be caused by any number of emotions, experiences, pressures, environment, chemical imbalance, whatever the case, the guy was a psycho!

However, he evidently knew right from wrong (one valid definition of insanity).

Outward appearances are sometimes deceiving, as we all know. He may have led a seemingly 'normal' life, but inside, something else was going on.

Agreed, “something else was going on” BUT was the man actually INSANE? If so by what definition.

Are we all insane by the definition you use?

Getting into law and defense will take us way off topic.

Agreed. Perhaps we can agree to define the term “insane” separate from legal definitions.

Does universal salvation make sense to you?

Absolutely Not.

I regard “salvation” as a religious theory that proposes to solve a “problem” that religion theorizes (the threat of “eternal damnation” or “hell” or whatever) in an “afterlife”.

It appears to me as though religion invents the problem (a threatening “god”) then provides a “solution” (worship as directed by clerics or other representatives of religion) – and makes a profit by being the middle-man.

Can God forgive everybody?

Thousands of different gods have been feared, loved and/or worshiped by humans. I do not accept that any of the proposed “gods” are real. I have no opinion if an entity that I regard as imaginary has a forgiving nature.

I question very strongly how anyone can propose to know whether a specific “god” forgives or not. I have no great regard for ancient stories and writings that I know to contain errors and contridictions.

Should we?

I favor “forgiveness” to some extent; however, I do not favor blanket forgiveness or forgiveness for deliberate grievous actions. I have (and will) achieve retribution personally for certain offenses against me or those I care about. I do not take comfort in following someone’s advice to “forgive” all things, nor do I find comfort by conjecturing that “they will be punished after they die” (which sounds rather silly to me).

[justifyothers]

You're a bible-believer, right?
"Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord." What does this mean to you? Sounds like you're saying vengeance should be yours. Does God mean that He'll get the SOB, or does He imply that it is not our concern - He will make right what is not. We are likely incapable of true justice.

Yes, there IS some degree of empathy for the perpetrator. In many cases this is due. But this does NOT mean no sympathy for the victim - can't it be both?

But, you didn't speak to the OP - do you think universal salvation makes sense? Do you believe in forgiveness? Who better to forgive than your enemy. Isn't this what Jesus teaches? Or do we ignore this scripture when it is convenient?

What vengeance? Your theology allows everyone into heaven because of Gods empathy. Might as well put the killers in His hands. I dont see it as vengeance in that light. Just helping along a cause. And, as always, I do not think universal salvation makes any sense. "do we ignore this scripture when it is convenient?" I thought this was the whole premise of your faith, from previous explanations. You only accept the parts you want. Has this changed?

No, this hasn't changed. I used the scripture because I thought you believed the bible. Retaliation is vengeance. You didn't address the forgiveness bit I mentioned. Is forgiveness part of your life? Do you forgive others? Enemies? If you can, why do you think God wouldn't?

[justifyothers]

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He was clearly not 'normal' to inflict pain and suffering and eventually death to these victims. This is my point. He was insane.

If “not normal” qualifies as insane, there appear to be a lot of insane people – including perhaps members of this forum. I do not accept that definition and I have supplied some alternatives that are accepted in law and medicine.

Perhaps it would be useful to the discussion if you would supply the definition you are using of insane. Surely you don’t regard anyone who is “not normal” as being insane, do you?

No, but I do consider those who harm others to be insane.

Could be caused by any number of emotions, experiences, pressures, environment, chemical imbalance, whatever the case, the guy was a psycho!

However, he evidently knew right from wrong (one valid definition of insanity).

Why do you think so?

Getting into law and defense will take us way off topic.

Agreed. Perhaps we can agree to define the term “insane” separate from legal definitions.

OK -
INSANE:
1. not sane; not of sound mind; mentally deranged.
2. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of a person who is mentally deranged: insane actions; an insane asylum.
3. utterly senseless: an insane plan.
—Synonyms 1. demented; lunatic, crazed, crazy; maniacal. 3. foolish, irrational. See mad.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

Does universal salvation make sense to you?

Absolutely Not.

I regard “salvation” as a religious theory that proposes to solve a “problem” that religion theorizes (the threat of “eternal damnation” or “hell” or whatever) in an “afterlife”.

It appears to me as though religion invents the problem (a threatening “god”) then provides a “solution” (worship as directed by clerics or other representatives of religion) – and makes a profit by being the middle-man.

This has definitely happened and is currently happening.

Can God forgive everybody?

Thousands of different gods have been feared, loved and/or worshiped by humans. I do not accept that any of the proposed “gods” are real. I have no opinion if an entity that I regard as imaginary has a forgiving nature.

I question very strongly how anyone can propose to know whether a specific “god” forgives or not. I have no great regard for ancient stories and writings that I know to contain errors and contridictions.

I can only hope that God will forgive. And I do. I think much of this world leads some to do things they don't really mean to do. This is where I think Gods' forgiveness comes in. Forgiveness is such a healing attribute for both parties involved. I think it is a wise philosophy to live by. It makes sense in every way to me.

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