How do I determine what God requires of me?

[McCulloch]

I have posted what I think is the single most important issue to debate.

To me, the second most important issue is this. If there is a God, how do I determine what God requires of me? If your answer involves something that is from human agency, a book or an organization, then the question remains, "How do I know that the book's authors or the organization's leaders authoritatively speak for God?"

How do I determine what God requires of me?

[Zzyzx]

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We are not “selling” anything about love and are not attempting to induce others to love us or each other.

I can understand if you think that Christians are trying to sell you something. And I am sure that some are, but to me it is more like the old quote "Evangelism is one beggar telling another where bread can be found."

If an evangelist speaks to me s/he is NOT speaking to a “beggar” in any sense of the word and is NOT speaking to someone who is in search of “bread”. That is someone else’s attempt to project their ideas upon others.

To me, the “selling” and promotion and advertising of religion is very pronounced in our culture. I happen to live in the Bible Belt of southeastern United States, known for its religious orientation. I KNOW whereof I speak. Don’t try to tell me that religion isn’t being SOLD on large scale.
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I was once a rational thinker, who had to listen to the preaching of the superstitious. They did not bother me so much and I enjoyed enlightening them to what the real world is all about. At the time I did not have concerns about laws that this group may pass and make me conform to, so I did not see them as a threat like people today see them as.

What changed to cause you to cease being a rational thinker?

What did you become when you rejected being a rational thinker?

Today I am eternally grateful to the "foolish preaching" that these people gave to me when I was still lost.

What were you lost FROM? Do you realize that others who are rational thinkers do not consider themselves “lost” or in need?

The need appears to be for a good “feeling” and assurances regarding an “afterlife”.

And I am sure that one day you too will forgive us for hounding you with this gospel, but my hands are tied, it is what I am compelled to do.

I do not accept your claim that I will forgive you for hounding me with “this gospel”. You have NO claim to truth any more than the worshipers of any other gods – which is to say, none at all.

Your feeling of being compelled to hound people with your “gospel” is discourteous and is disrespectful of the convictions and beliefs of others. EVERY other belief system or lack thereof is EQUAL to yours. Do you believe that your religion is superior to the religions of others – or that you are compelled to “save” them from their own beliefs and preferences? Are you omniscient?

The irony is that God endowed you with so much gray matter, that it has become a stumbling block for you to find him, but with God all things are possible.

I do not accept that any god “endowed [me] with so much gray matter”. Since you use that assumption in debate, kindly substantiate the claim that gods are involved in anyone's "gray matter".

Are you saying that having “gray matter” hinders a person from finding gods? If so, are gods suitable only for those who are deficient in “gray matter”? Are you suggesting that one should be stupid to be “saved”?

Should a person set aside their “gray matter” or intelligence, or knowledge, or judgment, or discernment, or experience, or reasoning in order to “find god”? Does the god you promote recruit unintelligent worshipers?

[McCulloch]

Does the god you promote recruit unintelligent worshipers?

Apparently so:

For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, ...

[alexiarose]

Hello undeterred. I am going to try to answer this now without being so not nice.

in her heart, (Mom) is doing exactly as scriptures says.

The evil one could be your doubt and skepticism.

Yes, I realize I contradict myself from my earlier post about mom, but I know what is in moms heart. I don't know what is in yours...

Contradict away... But don't expect us to believe that your beliefs are deep seated if you contradict yourself.

I explained my contradiction quite adequately IMO. I don't know what is in your heart.

Your self-contradiction, which has not been explained, seems to be that there is a straightforward explanation for God not revealing himself to McCulloch, and it's pretty much the only explanation, but it doesn't apply to your mother.

Here was my self-contradiction to mom:

I think that God hasn't abandoned them, but He works in His own time in His own way. I have to trust that there is a reason He hasn't reached their hearts yet. Or perhaps He has, they just don't recognize it. I know moms heart is good. She shows it at work and home and with her friends. I know how much she hurt when she thought she was rejected and I don't blame her for joining the other side, though I am going to try to fight like heck now that I am home to prevent it, but I think that in her heart, she is doing exactly as scriptures says.

Now, I said I don't know what is in McCullochs heart, so I don't know if God has revealed Himself to him or not. I do know what is in my moms heart and that despite her not accepting God, she does follow His laws, just not the traditional way. I have to trust that there is a reason He hasn't made Himself known to her, or that maybe He has and she doesn't recognize it. This is just as possible for McCulloch, but without knowing him like I know mom, I can't really say for sure. However, you were right in earlier threads, I can't support this with scripture or evidence. Only a belief which may or may not be right. I have to trust that God has a reason and I may not understand it, but I should still give Him the benefit of the doubt.
That was my original thought. But since then, I have found that maybe I am not quite as on solid ground in my belief as I thought so what I just wrote could be pointless if I don't find some comfort in it soon. I know God works in His time, but in this, I ask that He does His best to work in mine because I need to know that some of it is possible for my faith to stop wavering.

The evil one could be your doubt and skepticism.

Do you think your mother has doubt and skepticism? So far that's been your only explanation for the absence of God in a person's life. And is "having no doubt and skepticism" the definition of an open, honest search anyway?

I know mom has doubt and skepticism. I don't think it necessarily means that her search hasn't been open and honest. She is looking for something that is absolute evidence of God and I am not sure that is possible even without doubt and skepticism, so I guess I can't say that this may be why mom hasn't found Him. But again, I am finding my ground really shaky right now and am not entirely sure of myself or my belief since then. I would like to believe that she has, she just doesn't realize it, but to say so is pure speculation and may be false hope. That makes me sad. I know I am suppose to be learning to separate emotions from debate but this one is hard. Sorry.

I have to trust that there is a reason He hasn't reached their hearts yet.

As I mentioned, the only reason you've put forward so far is doubt and skepticism, which goes back to my original question to you. Apart from that, you seem to be following the common pattern of making excuses for God. "His ways are not our ways...", etc.

Yes, it seems I am. I don't know if He has found their hearts or not. My original thoughts don't seem to hold much weight.

You've equated the process of finding God, with "letting your guard down", as in trusting that someone loves you (in the human sense). Might I assume that you get your heart broken a lot? What if you open yourself to someone, and they don't return your love?

I know where this is going because mom did it twice and felt like He rejected her and it really hurt her. I haven't ever been in love but I am starting to wonder where the love from God has gone all the sudden.

Your mother has reached out to God, and he's turned his back on her. The Heavenly Father, with perfect love abounding, has seen fit to withhold his favor. How low does that make the poor individual feel who needs God - holding out her arms and calling to him? (And here I'm referring to other cases I've seen, btw.)

It hurts.

This kind of torturous delusion is the tragic antithesis of religious elation.

I am not really sure how to answer this. In my last post to McCulloch, my faith was getting a little sketchy and since moms tests today, I am afraid it is a little more so. In short, I am definitely not feeling elation right now.

[alexiarose]

...doubt and skepticism need not be absent for an honest search. Try reading through all the posts again because you missing points. I merely stated that it COULD be. Do you understand the difference between stating a possibility and stating a fact?

Okay.

So it's possible that doubts or skepticism hold God at bay, or it's possible that... what?

He doesn't exist or He doesn't.... I don't know.

As I mentioned, the only reason you've put forward so far is doubt and skepticism, which goes back to my original question to you. Apart from that, you seem to be following the common pattern of making excuses for God. "His ways are not our ways...", etc.

Really, sounds more like you are trying to put words in my mouth... Read what I write and quit trying to make it sound like it is something it isn't.

I'm just telling you what it sounds like to me. Seriously. Hence the phrase "you seem to be..." It's not like I'm never dense, or anything. If I've got it wrong, can you spare me a little time to straighten it out, in an informative post? Thanks.

I wish I could but I can't at this exact moment.

You've equated the process of finding God, with "letting your guard down", as in trusting that someone loves you (in the human sense). Might I assume that you get your heart broken a lot? What if you open yourself to someone, and they don't return your love?

You can assume anything you would like but it won't get you any closer to the truth. But since you seem to be doing such a good job, keep it up!!

Not that I thought about it, but you might have said "No, I don't approach the trust in human love the same way I approach my trust in God..." or something like that, maybe. Like I said I'm just asking. I'm not sure why I'm being attacked.

I am sorry for that. But I guess I did think about finding God in the same way as finding human love and rejection from either will hurt.

How low does that make the poor individual feel who needs God - holding out her arms and calling to him? (And here I'm referring to other cases I've seen, btw.)

Is there suppose to be some kind of debatable issue in this context? Or are you just trying to appeal to emotions?

Or you might have said "People needn't feel bad if it seems God has turned his back on them..." or something like that. Sheesh.

People shouldn't feel bad because if they are honest in their search, they should have found God unless He turned His back on them despite their honesty. In moms case, I can see why it hurt and I am questioning it.

This kind of torturous delusion is the tragic antithesis of religious elation.

Again, appealing to emotions doesn't impress me. You have no clue what you are talking about when you try to personalize it because unlike a few others here, you don't know moms life.

Which is why I said "...here I'm referring to other cases I've seen".

I see that now. Sorry.

Now, apart from that I did read this...

I know how much she hurt when she thought she was rejected...

...so I don't know why I can't make my point.

You have.

Until then, might I suggest you keep it on topic rather than making it irrelevant?

Why is there a heavier onus on me to stay "on topic" than anyone else on this board? I didn't steer the thread to its present position. In any case the topic is "How do I determine what God requires of me." Since God seems to require the "open heart" approach before he can even show himself, it seems patently unfair that people should suffer mental and emotional torment when they comply fully, and he crushes their little hearts and spirits for no apparent reason.

You are right and I don't have an answer for that right now.

All this is made all the more unfair because the torment is based on a figment of the imagination to start with.

I never thought it to be so, and I am trying to not think so, but I am just not sure anymore. If God is hurting mom intentionally, then I really don't know what to think.

I know this is a very poor response but if I am to look at it honestly, I don't really have a good answer for any of the points you list.

[alexiarose]

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Alexiarose,

These are very appropriate reactions / responses for an intelligent person.

I always thought that if I could find Him by reading a book from the library, then surely anyone could. But I am not really sure what I found anymore.

Yesterday I would have told you that God does communicate directly, but in His own way. Today, that makes no sense at all. I don't know.

You have encountered questions regarding faith that have no easy answers for discerning, discriminating people – those who insist upon using their abilities to understand the world they inhabit rather than simply following what others suggest or demand.

There are many simple or simplistic answers offered that might satisfy others, but which do not satisfy all of us. Many who loudly proclaim belief systems do not require that what they “know” actually be true – only that they “believe on faith alone” without questioning the statements of clerics (or writers of religious tomes).

No one should attempt to tell you what to think, though many will. Instead, you should be encouraged to continue the questioning process until you are satisfied with the answers you develop for yourself.

What happens when I can't find answers? I am sorry, my belief is really hurting me right now and I am not sure of what I know.

[alexiarose]

Maybe after some sleep I might find my way back. Mom has to start her infusions soon so after I help her with that, I am going to bed. Hopefully the morning will bring clarity.

Alexiarose, hang in there, you are on the right road. When the world becomes overwhelming I go into a private place and pray to God, out loud, and things get better.

Then why am I in tears right now and so uncertain?

[Zzyzx]

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What happens when I can't find answers? I am sorry, my belief is really hurting me right now and I am not sure of what I know.

Eventually we usually find answers -- perhaps not the ones we thought we would find, and perhaps not in places we expected to find them.

It might be wise to take a break from these debates for a time because they can be very challenging and confrontational. Some of us have thick calluses from life and combat but you do not.

Is there a place that you can surround yourself with peace and beauty? Do you have friends at the UU that can offer support without being judgmental, confrontational or agenda-driven?

[twobitsmedia]

What happens when I can't find answers? I am sorry, my belief is really hurting me right now and I am not sure of what I know.

It's hard to interject in the middle of something without all the details. But If your above comment is real..I would say walk away. If God is real to you, He will find you. If it's all just "belief" ........pitch your Bible in the trash and take a break.

[jgh7]

How do I determine what God requires of me?

I don´t think the answer is a complicated one. In my opinion, all God requires is for you to desire and to seek after Him, for you to want God in your life and to want to feel His presence and comfort.

Thank you for your response, but you failed to answer the question. It is not "What does God require of me? " It is "How do I determine what God requires of me?" You have provided an answer to the first without addressing the second. You tell me what you think that God wants of me that may be more or less valid than someone else's answer. But you failed to explain how you came to the conclusion you have come to. Upon what do you base your opinion?

My mistake. In order to determine how to know what God wants of us, we would have to literally know God's desires for us. Well, that's kind of hard to do if we have zero connection to God. So therefore, God's first desire would probably be for us to try and establish a connection with Him and seek Him out in life. Once we've done that, then perhaps we can work on changing the things in our life to better suit God's further desires for us.

In short, in order to determine how to know what God wants from us, I think the best course of action is to try and establish a connection with God. So, it's basically the answer from my previous post again. Seek out God.

[jgh7]

What happens when I can't find answers? I am sorry, my belief is really hurting me right now and I am not sure of what I know.

I feel like I'm in the same boat as you, but I'm always encouraged when I realize that many of the greatest characters of the bible were often in the same boat as well. When reading through psalms, I often hear David crying out simply to know God and to learn from him and recieve guidance. He cries out to feel God's presence, many many times. It's a struggle trying to connect with God when we feel nothing, but know that you are not alone in these feelings. My suggestion is to simply pray to God for comfort and happiness, and pray to God to know Him better. There's no shame in being bold and asking God to come into your life more. But above all, have faith that God does care for you and will come into your life. Put your trust in God. You may not know what to do with your life or what path to take, but trust that God loves you and is watching over you. He will not abandon you.