Anyone got proof of God

[nine dog war]

I have heard all the retohric, the Bible versus etc etc etc

What Im looking for is proof to the hypothesis of God. I would love to see tangible proof or if not at least one logical argument. So far I have not seen nor heard either.

Please note the words "Tangible" and "Logical". If wish to use quotes from the religious texts then please prove the vadility of the source. e.g. If you quote from the Bible book of Luke please provide proof Luke existed and was not completly stark raving mad.

Blessed is the mind too small for doubt for it is easily filled with faith.

[cnorman18]

Proof is evidence than can be repeated

If an experiment could be found that showed that there was an effect that could not be explained in any way other than that an omnipresent omniscient omnipotent superbeing exists and directs our lives was done then I would admit that it existed (I would still not be a Christian but that's another matter.

However, I cannot perceive of an experiment that does not have a much, much simpler explanation, if we saw a rock levitate I would be looking for the strings.

There is no more evidence that any sort of God exists than that the moon is made of Norwegian Beaver Cheese and yet if I started a forum about the merits of a beaver cheese orientated world I think I know what would happen.

Another example, a man claims he hears voices in his head, he is put in an institution.
A man claims God is talking to him, he becomes a great world leader.

Not true; sometimes he becomes a wealthy televangelist. And sometimes he is, indeed, locked up as a paranoid schizophrenic.

I asked for a concrete example of proof that an ordinary person could present here on this forum. I see none here.

Could you give an example of and experiment which "showed that there was an effect that could not be explained in any way other than that an omnipresent omniscient omnipotent superbeing exists and directs our lives"? I can think of none.

Further, wouldn't it be the case that any observation which cannot be explained through science as it is presently understood would be quite reasonably attributed to causes which we simply do not understand yet? That is the case for all sorts of odd things; the "braided" rings of Saturn come to mind, as well as the problem of specialized organs (eyes and wings, e.g.) in evolutionary theory (and I hasten to add that I am by no means a "Creationist").

What the H is "beaver cheese"? The crud between a beaver's toes?

[muffinmonkey]

Beavers are mammals
Mammals make milk
Milk makes Cheese

Beaver cheese much exist
Unless it has the wrong consistency

[cnorman18]

Beavers are mammals
Mammals make milk
Milk makes Cheese

Beaver cheese much exist
Unless it has the wrong consistency

Never occurred to me.

I suspect consistency might not be the problem. Considering that beavers are remarkably powerful creatures for their size, and come equipped with very efficient claws and teeth, the difficulty of milking a mama beaver (not to mention the number you'd have to milk go make a pound of cheese) might make its hypothetical rich, nutlike flavor a very expensive treat indeed.

Armadillo cheese--now THAT might be doable. I doubt the Moon is made of it, though. Everyone knows it's made of green cheese, which as far as I know only comes from Ireland...

[muffinmonkey]

While this is in no way the point, the moon is said to be made a "Greene Cheese" meaning new rather than actually green.

But the point is that there is as much evidence that any number of extremely unlikely things are true as there is of god.

[cnorman18]

While this is in no way the point, the moon is said to be made a "Greene Cheese" meaning new rather than actually green.

Geez, you'd think after 3-4 billion years, it'd be ripe by now.

But the point is that there is as much evidence that any number of extremely unlikely things are true as there is of god.

True enough.

Of course, some extremely unlikely things ARE true. Ever seen a giraffe, or a platypus?

I have never claimed to be able to prove God. I think belief in God is a matter of personal inclination or taste, and everyone ought to leave everyone else alone about it.

Of course, in Jewish belief, what one DOES is of supreme importance. What one BELIEVES is of little consequence, even to God. We don't proselytize, ever, and have nothing to say about the truth or falsity of other faiths (the issue of literal idolatry, which is rather rare in today's world, excepted).

"Salvation" and "Heaven" are not issues of interest to Jews, and if there is a Heaven at all--most Jews are not sure, and aren't terribly interested in the question--then everyone, of any faith or none, are welcome if God (and only God) judges them as having lived a righteous life.

Don't believe in God? There is ample reason to take that position, and I have no reason to argue anyone out of it. On this forum, I find myself siding with the atheists about as often as not. Their objections to the behavior and attitudes of Christian fundamentalists are generally the same as my own.

On the other hand, I do have a problem with militant atheists who think that a simple belief in God is always and everywhere a wholly pernicious and malignant force for evil. That it can be is inarguable; that it always is, is not.

That's my nutshell.

I prefer a good aged Gruyere cheese above all other kinds, myself. A gift from God, if you'll pardon the expression.

[thebluetriangle]

Hi nine dog war.

I can't furnish you with proof of God's existence; proof is impossible outside of mathematics and personal revelation. However, I can show you evidence that a higher power has encoded information within the Bible, information that the Bible's writers and translators could not have consciously put there.

The information is found in the Hebrew scriptures (Masoretic text), Greek New Testament (Textus Receptus) and the modern English NIV Bible. It takes the form of numerical cyphertexts, encoded by means of alphabetic numeration systems, where the letters of each alphabet are replaced by numbers according to well-established numeration systems, then summed (occasionally multiplied) to form numerical values for words, phrases, verses, etc. Two such systems are principally involved. The first, called the absolute value system by kabbalists, is the well-established Greek and Hebrew numeration systems and a modern English system, based on the Hebrew scheme (A = 1 to Z = 800). The second, called the ordinal value system (NIV code only), is the replacement of each letter of the alphabet by its positional value (eg. Z = 26).

Here are two intriguing examples of these codes.

Example 1

The numbers pi, e (mathematical absolutes) and alpha (the electromagnetic fine structure constant) are all encoded within and between the first verses of Genesis (Mas.) and John (Text. Rec.). Note that these verses are related in their positions and their universal subject matter. The errors from the true values are all 1 in 100000 or less. Pi was known in biblical times, but e was not discovered (as far as we know) until the 17th Century and alpha was unknown until the 20th Century. Therefore these encodings, using the universal language of mathematics, are excellent evidence that a Higher Power oversaw the writing of Scripture, and foresaw that, in this age of reason, many would doubt His existence!. This stunning information was uncovered by Vernon Jenkins and coworkers.

www.otherbiblecode.com

Example 2

If the first 24 words of the NIV are bisected into two 12-word parts, then each part bisected once more into two 6-word parts, six numerical 'signatures' are found by calculating the ordinal value of each part. These numbers, two of which are found twice, are the absolute values of the words 'Jesus', 'Word', 'messiah' and 'Yehoshua' (Heb). The signatory is therefore Jesus Christ. These encodings, found by myself, serve as a kind of authenticating watermark on, and gateway to, a code within the NIV Bible, a code that has a breathtaking message for us at this critical juncture in our history.

www.thenewbiblecode.co.uk

thebluetriangle

[Goat]

Hi nine dog war.

I can't furnish you with proof of God's existence; proof is impossible outside of mathematics and personal revelation. However, I can show you evidence that a higher power has encoded information within the Bible, information that the Bible's writers and translators could not have consciously put there.

The information is found in the Hebrew scriptures (Masoretic text), Greek New Testament (Textus Receptus) and the modern English NIV Bible. It takes the form of numerical cyphertexts, encoded by means of alphabetic numeration systems, where the letters of each alphabet are replaced by numbers according to well-established numeration systems, then summed (occasionally multiplied) to form numerical values for words, phrases, verses, etc. Two such systems are principally involved. The first, called the absolute value system by kabbalists, is the well-established Greek and Hebrew numeration systems and a modern English system, based on the Hebrew scheme (A = 1 to Z = 800). The second, called the ordinal value system (NIV code only), is the replacement of each letter of the alphabet by its positional value (eg. Z = 26).

Here are two intriguing examples of these codes.

Example 1

The numbers pi, e (mathematical absolutes) and alpha (the electromagnetic fine structure constant) are all encoded within and between the first verses of Genesis (Mas.) and John (Text. Rec.). Note that these verses are related in their positions and their universal subject matter. The errors from the true values are all 1 in 100000 or less. Pi was known in biblical times, but e was not discovered (as far as we know) until the 17th Century and alpha was unknown until the 20th Century. Therefore these encodings, using the universal language of mathematics, are excellent evidence that a Higher Power oversaw the writing of Scripture, and foresaw that, in this age of reason, many would doubt His existence!. This stunning information was uncovered by Vernon Jenkins and coworkers.

www.otherbiblecode.com

Example 2

If the first 24 words of the NIV are bisected into two 12-word parts, then each part bisected once more into two 6-word parts, six numerical 'signatures' are found by calculating the ordinal value of each part. These numbers, two of which are found twice, are the absolute values of the words 'Jesus', 'Word', 'messiah' and 'Yehoshua' (Heb). The signatory is therefore Jesus Christ. These encodings, found by myself, serve as a kind of authenticating watermark on, and gateway to, a code within the NIV Bible, a code that has a breathtaking message for us at this critical juncture in our history.

www.thenewbiblecode.co.uk

thebluetriangle

The problem with the bible code is that it takes values and numbers, and sees it can retrofit meaning into it. There will always be numeric patterns. SImilar patterns can be found in any major work (I had someone who was Muslim make the same claim about the Koran, and mohammed). It can also be made about things found in Gone with the Wind.

That use is trying to make meaningless patterns into a hidden code from God. God doesn't need a hidden code. If it is not plain for all to see, then it is meaningless.

[thebluetriangle]

Hi Goat.

Thanks for your reply.

The problem with the bible code is that it takes values and numbers, and sees it can retrofit meaning into it.

I'm sure if one looked long and hard enough, one could find similar patterns somewhere in the bible, or even within other works of literature. However, because of the prominent locations of these patterns, the way they are hidden and the numbers themselves, there is good reason for believing these patterns to be genuine encodings, rather than random action.

1. The pi and e encodings are found within the Bible's opening verse and the opening verse of John. These verses are both of immense theological import and are in very prominent locations, with similar sentence construction and meaning.

2. The numbers pi and e are the two most important absolutes in mathematics, undergirding the whole of science and technology.

3. The John encoding parallels the Genesis encoding in every respect. The same formula is used in both cases and the same degree of error is found.

This confluence of meaning, location, mathematical import and decoding methods speaks of intelligent design, rather than random action.

In addition, these encodings are just the tip of the iceberg: there are many more numerical wonders to be found beneath the plaintext of Scripture.

SImilar patterns can be found in any major work (I had someone who was Muslim make the same claim about the Koran, and mohammed).

I've seen the encodings of the number 19 in the Quran; they could well be genuine. I think God's light shines through all of our highest endeavors.

It can also be made about things found in Gone with the Wind.

Can it? I've tried to find similar patterns to those found in the first 24 words of the NIV without success. What one generally finds is a few numbers scattered about, with no larger pattern evident, such as the numbers being tightly grouped into successive strings of six or twelve words, as with the NIV code. It's this confluence of two or more independant patterns that makes the encodings significant.

If it is not plain for all to see, then it is meaningless.

Is an electron meaningless because nobody has seen one? Is Reimann's hypothesis meaningless because few can understand it?

That use is trying to make meaningless patterns into a hidden code from God. God doesn't need a hidden code.

Who are you to tell us what God would or would not do? Don't let dogma or emotional attachment blind you to God's miracles. Open your eyes and look.

thebluetriangle

[Goat]

Hi Goat.

Thanks for your reply.

The problem with the bible code is that it takes values and numbers, and sees it can retrofit meaning into it.

I'm sure if one looked long and hard enough, one could find similar patterns somewhere in the bible, or even within other works of literature. However, because of the prominent locations of these patterns, the way they are hidden and the numbers themselves, there is good reason for believing these patterns to be genuine encodings, rather than random action.

1. The pi and e encodings are found within the Bible's opening verse and the opening verse of John. These verses are both of immense theological import and are in very prominent locations, with similar sentence construction and meaning.

2. The numbers pi and e are the two most important absolutes in mathematics, undergirding the whole of science and technology.

3. The John encoding parallels the Genesis encoding in every respect. The same formula is used in both cases and the same degree of error is found.

This confluence of meaning, location, mathematical import and decoding methods speaks of intelligent design, rather than random action.

In addition, these encodings are just the tip of the iceberg: there are many more numerical wonders to be found beneath the plaintext of Scripture.

SImilar patterns can be found in any major work (I had someone who was Muslim make the same claim about the Koran, and mohammed).

I've seen the encodings of the number 19 in the Quran; they could well be genuine. I think God's light shines through all of our highest endeavors.

It can also be made about things found in Gone with the Wind.

Can it? I've tried to find similar patterns to those found in the first 24 words of the NIV without success. What one generally finds is a few numbers scattered about, with no larger pattern evident, such as the numbers being tightly grouped into successive strings of six or twelve words, as with the NIV code. It's this confluence of two or more independant patterns that makes the encodings significant.

If it is not plain for all to see, then it is meaningless.

Is an electron meaningless because nobody has seen one? Is Reimann's hypothesis meaningless because few can understand it?

That use is trying to make meaningless patterns into a hidden code from God. God doesn't need a hidden code.

Who are you to tell us what God would or would not do? Don't let dogma or emotional attachment blind you to God's miracles. Open your eyes and look.

thebluetriangle

I happen to disagree, based on the statistical analysis. There have been a number of good mathematicians that have shown the 'bible code' to be pure superstition and fantasy. Open your eyes, and see it's wishful thinking.

God does not need to hide secret details in such a way that any large enough book will have the same predictions, that can only be found after the fact.

I have a challenge to you. Using the bible code method, show me something that is supposed to happen BEFORE it a happens, and not something that it is rather obvious that it will happen too.

Use it to make a prediction.

[Zzyzx]

.

I have a challenge to you. Using the bible code method, show me something that is supposed to happen BEFORE it a happens, and not something that it is rather obvious that it will happen too.

Use it to make a prediction.

That is a very appropriate challenge. It points out the defect in “prophesies” and the supposed number “code” – that they work looking backward AFTER events occur and assuming that someone or something magically “predicted” an event, whereas they do NOT work attempting to look forward.

When such “methods” are used to attempt to predict future events they simply fail – as the multitude of “End of the Earth” predictions show over and over and over. Yet many still “believe in prophesy”. It is no wonder that fortune tellers exist to play on people’s gullibility.