so the question is "why"

[ollagram88]

i'm always amazed at how much science has accomplished in understanding our universe.

the one thing that i never could get an answer to, however, is WHY - why does does this universe exist? (or universes, depending on what you fancy).

i'm looking at the big picture here. one might ask, why are we here? well, billions of years of moving particles, evolution, ideal conditions, and the constants that make life possible tell us how we got here, and by that alone, the question of why can be considered irrelevant.

i'm not interested in the how, however, and it doesn't even have to concern life (because as science would like to tell us, we're pretty insignificant). i'm not asking how the universe functions. i don't care that it's possible for non-carbon based lifeforms to exist provided our universe was fine-tuned differently.

i'm asking WHY. why we have physical laws. why there exists matter. why the big bang(s) had to occur. why all that is, is?

is science just not there yet? if so, what can we guess based on our current knowledge? what does science and philosophy have to say about this? i don't want to insert God if God is not necessary to answer this question.

[byofrcs]

.....

Did they not find out that FIRST, There was Background radiation coming from everywhere in the sky? Which no one predicted before Ma Bell picked it up while testing a powerful listening device for a communication satellite.

Then searching this out to find out why the galaxies are not equally scattered, Then come up with an uneven Big Bang explosion. If that is really what causes the radiation?

First they find something, Then come up with an answer for it, They did not predict the background radiation, then prove it was there. Science seems to work quite well with HINDSIGHT. OH? There is a laser coming out of a Black Hole, Well this is WHY.

...........

Ken, you are being blatantly dishonest because if you know this much you know that the first US Telecoms satellite was Telstar in '62.

You also know that Andrew McKellar deducted the temperature of interstellar gas as 2.3 K in the mid-1940s or over 20 years before it was proven as a fact.

Get your facts right.

[ken1burton]

Bernee51.

Time is an order or events. That is why time has references which we also use as “BEFORE, DURING, AFTER.� So “BEFORE� the Big Bang there was something, Timelessness. Which did not exist after the Big Bang. Or so, someone would have people believe.

Time has a form of relative to the observer. But events are still changing, And that means the clock ticked and things are not the same as they were before.

But that is like believing that if you were in a Black Hole in Space, Time would stop. Not for those waiting to see if you get out?

Eternal Universe. Sounds like new age talk.

Nothing happened before is the concept Thought Criminal gave with the concept of Time starting then, Not without time coming into existence.

Is this one Atheist trying to supporting another Atheist? Because if it is, You are going against what Thought Criminal said. He said there were not even particles, A SUB ATOMIC PARTICLE is a Particle, The “Sub Atomic� list the TYPE or Particle.

Metaphor? Sure, That is why the Universe is expanding so fast.

You want references for Stars older then the Big Bang dating? Do your homework. The Big Bang got reduced to about 13.73 Billions years plus or minus 120 million.

You know why God is speaking over his head, But not over mine, You are a former Christian, are you not? How can you hear what you do not believe is being said?


Joeyknuccione,

Untestable? And you think the Big Bang theory is testable? Life just coming into existence as Testable? You test things which FIRST are probable. For without a possibility, Why waste time with testing?

Who said “God always was?� Scripture shows God at the Beginning which is the day of the Cross which begins the New World, The Old World had no Scripture record.

How can you see God? Take those Atheist glasses off. They are painted over with unbelief.

You know what is taught at the Creation Museum. That the world is about 6,000 years old, and the Creation story is a similitude, So that is not really even a Scriptural concept.

“Science using facts meant this:� What do you call that? A Paraphrase turn around? You infringed on my copyright.

Pass the collection plate is not Scriptural:

“Freely ye have received, freely give.� is.

Satan is a name for “The Word of God.� But, Don’t tell Christians YET. Israel will tell them in about 20 years.

? I would reject a SIMPLE ONE? You mean to reject a Simple one’s fact?

The Science magazines are written to impress others who are impressed with having their names on the mailing label.

Contradicting common sense as to probable is more like it. God is probable, Big Bang Theory, Not a chance. 6,000 year old earth is not probable. But some of the articles from Creation Institute are quite interesting.


Byofrcs.

It is nice to have someone tell me what I know. I might be able to use you as my memory fades.

Ken

[bernee51]

Bernee51.
Time is an order or events. That is why time has references which we also use as “BEFORE, DURING, AFTER.�

So it is as I pointed out. It is good that you argree with me. Time is an order of events as observed by we humans. The universe does not observe time as we do, the universe is in an eternal state of 'now'. Time, our concept, merely measuers the distance between those 'nows'. The universe is, in fact, timeless.

So “BEFORE� the Big Bang there was something, Timelessness. Which did not exist after the Big Bang. Or so, someone would have people believe.

Whatever the universe was 'before' the BB was as the universe is now, timeless.

Time has a form of relative to the observer. But events are still changing, And that means the clock ticked and things are not the same as they were before.

the universe does not observe - we do. We are not timeless, however the universe is.

Eternal Universe. Sounds like new age talk.

I know nothing of 'new age'. I do know that a timeless and eternal universe is the only logical outcome of analysis of the nature of being. The universe is in a constant state of emergent 'nows'. How long is a 'now'? Now, like eternity, is outside of time, i.e. timeless and eternal.

Nothing happened before is the concept Thought Criminal gave with the concept of Time starting then, Not without time coming into existence.

Is this one Atheist trying to supporting another Atheist? Because if it is, You are going against what Thought Criminal said.

Shock, horror. Atheists with different opinions. That should put an end to any of that silly talk we hear regarding 'atheist dogma' and 'atheist belief systems'.

You want references for Stars older then the Big Bang dating? Do your homework. The Big Bang got reduced to about 13.73 Billions years plus or minus 120 million.

I have done. Perhaps you should read some science on the subject.

You know why God is speaking over his head, But not over mine,

because 'god' is 'in your head'. God is a human construct - a meme passed from one generation to another - and evolving along the way.

[byofrcs]

....
Byofrcs.

It is nice to have someone tell me what I know. I might be able to use you as my memory fades.

Ken

Then I was wrong. You have avoided my raising the anisotropy of the CMB even though it is germane to the debate, not through you dishonestly misrepresenting the data but blatantly lying about what you knew.

Gee thanks.

[JoeyKnothead]

So let me see if I have this right. God exists, and has always been around, thus he exists outside of time. Many find this a completely plausible, acceptable explanation even though there is no proof. But to think that whatever 'caused' the big bang existed 'outside' of time is a wholly untenable position, regardless of all the proof that supports it?

At the risk of kicking a dead horse, science could be wrong about the big bang, but this does NOT prove the existence of God. If God is to be shown to have made the universe, then show your proof.

So let's just say all those who have proven the big bang are wrong, they lied, cheated and stole to prove it, and now we know better. How does this prove God? How does it prove God made the universe?

[ken1burton]

Bernee51.

Time is NOT as you pointed out, and I do not agree with you at all.

This is a quote from your post: (Not quite. Time is a human concept that only exists as such. In effect the universe is timeless in that it isw eternal. The BB and subsequent observations are merely a blip in an eternal 'being'. )

Time is an order of events, Even if no human exists. Things change and what has changed is past. Things once existed which no longer do exist, They had a TIME when they did exist. The only part of Time which can be said to be Human is how we use things to mark the time so that we can speak or reference it.

So we go by days on earth, By years, Light years, Etc. That is just for human communication. Those events still went through changes or through time. They do not have to be observed to have time effect them.

As far as the NOW, That is the only moment we have, But we keep renewing the now as fast as change takes place, That is no different then our having Endless todays.

Quote (Whatever the Universe was ‘Before’ the BB was as the universe is now, timeless.)

The Universe is not timeless, Events took place, So that the “Before the Big Bang� (Big Bang may have never happened) so make that before the expansion of the Universe as we know it, and what the Universe is expanded to at this point is very different, and all the events in between have to be taken into account to get the measurements correct.

Forget the word game, Time exists as changing events take place, With or without observation. There was no known humans to observe sunlight from some distant star millions of light years when it was generated, But we can observe it now as it reaches earth, and the time it took to get here is taken into account in measurements of it’s distance from us.

Silly talk? Do you think you are making sense? I have no problem with Atheists with different opinions, I just asked you if you were trying to support Thought Criminal’s post?

The Head of Christ is God, the Head of man is Christ. God dwells with man, In man. God poured out His Spirit (Jesus) upon all flesh. So God is in my head, in my heart, and in my being. And He is in you also. That is what omni-present covers.

Psalms 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

People who think they are Atheists would be covered under “Rebellious� in that verse. Don’t worry, God does not take it personal.


Byofcs.

Did you ever consider not trying to figure out why people are saying things, and just try addressing the things said?


Joeyknuccione.

You might have things RIGHT as far as what is believed by many Christians, But this is not what I am saying at all. The Scriptures do not say God always existed, it may be applied as said by not understanding when the Foundation of the world began, and using words like “Before the Foundation of the world� being the Foundation of the New world the day of the Cross which is being addressed.

Also the Concept that God is outside time, That is not a concept that I would even consider, as time is an order of events.

God does strange things with time, like moving the shadow of a sun dial back, But that really has it as getting to noon, Then the event of going back 10? Degrees, then going back to noon again. Just more time seen, Not going back in time.

Shadow going to noon was the first event,
The Shadow going back 10 degrees was the next event
the Shadow going back to noon again was the third event, not the first event.

As far as the Cause of the Big Bang (if there was one) existing outside time, Better ask Thought Criminal about that. He is the one with there not being time before the event. And I think a “cause� would have to be “Before� like it getting bigger or more mass added.

I have not said that God created the Universe, I said that God uses similitudes like the sun to the Throne, the Moon to the establishment of the throne, and the stars to signs. If you wish to take this to God creating the physical stars, Then take it that way, I do not.

I have said, He is the One to ask how it came about. If He is not any eye-witness to the event, I am sure He knows what happened. I am kind of sure that it might be quite hard for Him to tell someone (me included) about it. There may be many very hard concepts needed to understand. And that is also getting rid of all the mis-concepts which would interfere.

Like the different Elements the Universe contains. Mankind seems to want one answer or event which caused them all. Maybe there were different events to form Hydrogen, Then another event which formed the oxygen, Etc not just a cooling down ending up with the Elements together. I am referring to separate events for each different Element. And that is from “Nothing.�

I can see how Energy, Matter, Anti-Matter (not as Physics sees anti-matter) can come into being. Still looking for a probability for the different Elements forming, and in the different abundances of them. Looking to God for a lot of help to even begin to understand.

Ken

[JoeyKnothead]

To ken1burton,

It seems I have misunderstood your position. So as to 'why the universe', I would ask you to explain.

[byofrcs]

....

Did you ever consider not trying to figure out why people are saying things, and just try addressing the things said?

.....

I did. I said you had not told the truth in what you knew. I'm waiting for you to now follow your own counsel and address the things I said related to the anisotropy of the CBM. You made a claim. I found it was false and maliciously claimed, you now try to divert my conclusion and attempt to maintain this thread at all costs with equally bizarre claims.

Truthfully though I can see echoes of your style of the TimeCube in what you say. It is a tedious style with no attempt at debate.