Will Christians be protected from Gay social goals?

[Mere_Christian]

Once gay marriage is legalized in most states and forced on those that will not legalize it by the power of Democrat majority in Congress, how will Christians be protected from Gay Activists desiring to force Gay Culture and gay sex on every aspect of Christian life?

[micatala]

Moderator Warning

Show me the quote attributed to "Jesus" that shows that marriage is between a man and a woman exclusively.

Matthew 19:1-10

Please, quote the exact phrase that 'a marriage is between a man and woman exclusively'. It does talk about when a man and a woman marry, it shoudl be forever, and no divorce.

If you read it in context, he was replying ot the question

"The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?"

Context!!!!

You would't know context if it slapped you in the face. Just because you refuse to see that homosexuality is an abomination, does not make it so. All of the man and wife talk should clue you in.

We have had a spate of sarcastic and personal comments like the one by tlong above and several people including tlong are now on probation because of such comments.

I will advise everyone to keep their posts as civil as possible, however impassioned they may feel about the issues.

[micatala]

I feel that there should be only civil unions recognized by the state and that marriages are a religious rite and no more recognized the baptism and communion.

I don't think you're anywhere close to getting 51% of America agreeing with you on that one, but you're welcome to try.

I would agree, trying to get a majority to disassociate the religious ceremony from the civil contract is not too likely.

Society has an interest in fostering normal heterosexual marriage for the procreation of society.

I am fine with this. I fail to see how this requires banning gay marriage. How does allowing gay marriage prevent heterosexuals from getting married and having kids? How does it prevent the society at large or individuals or organizations within the society from fostering this goal?

Also, children need a mother and a father. No child would choose to grow up in a bizarre setting like a 'gay marriage'.

No child gets to choose their family so this is kind of a moot point.

I agree, it is good for a child to have a mother and a father.

Would you support outlawing divorce on this basis? Should we outlaw single-parenting?




If we are going to ban gay marriage on the rationale that "children need a mom and a dad" then it seems to me we would first have to show that children in gay households suffer more than those in single-parent households or other households that we allow legally. To single out gay households under circumstances where their children are doing just as well as these other allowable parenting situations would be discriminatory and unjust.



You are making the assumption that having gay parents is bad for a child. I ask for evidence to support this assumption.

[East of Eden]

Would you support outlawing divorce on this basis?

I think divorce is far too readily available today.

You are making the assumption that having gay parents is bad for a child. I ask for evidence to support this assumption.

It is bad by definition because a child does not have a mother and father. I'd add that gay 'married' couples continue to be promiscous and break up faster than heterosexual couples, and that gay males die about 20 years sooner than their hetero counterparts. There is no need for gay parenting other than for the gay lobby to legitimatize their perversion.

[East of Eden]

What is the "optimum" family situation for children?

Having a mother and father, for starters.

Isn't it being in a home where they are loved and supported without condition?

I notice the pro gay marriage side always compares a loving gay home with an unloving hetero home. All things being equal, kids are better off in a home with a mother and father.

[Goat]

Would you support outlawing divorce on this basis?

I think divorce is far too readily available today.

You are making the assumption that having gay parents is bad for a child. I ask for evidence to support this assumption.

It is bad by definition because a child does not have a mother and father. I'd add that gay 'married' couples continue to be promiscous and break up faster than heterosexual couples, and that gay males die about 20 years sooner than their hetero counterparts. There is no need for gay parenting other than for the gay lobby to legitimatize their perversion.

Other than claims from 'narth'. I would like you to give evidence that 'gay "married'couples are more promiscious and break up faster than heterosexual couples'. The couple who raised that young man just celebrated their 35th year together.

[Cathar1950]

Would you support outlawing divorce on this basis?

I think divorce is far too readily available today.

You are making the assumption that having gay parents is bad for a child. I ask for evidence to support this assumption.

It is bad by definition because a child does not have a mother and father. I'd add that gay 'married' couples continue to be promiscous and break up faster than heterosexual couples, and that gay males die about 20 years sooner than their hetero counterparts. There is no need for gay parenting other than for the gay lobby to legitimatize their perversion.

That means that 80% don't die sooner. This stat. doesn't follow for every homosexual couple or person.
What the individual person you are looking at doesn't matter as break-ups in heterosexual marriages are about 50%.
It is not bad by definition except in your mind.
Also it is not a perversion and I think you are slandering people you really don't know because you don't like their sexual practices.

[micatala]

Would you support outlawing divorce on this basis?

I think divorce is far too readily available today.

I agree that too many divorces occur and I would love to see fewer. However, some people abortions are far too readily available and yet support keeping them legal.

Would you favor legally outlawing divorce?

You are making the assumption that having gay parents is bad for a child. I ask for evidence to support this assumption.

It is bad by definition because a child does not have a mother and father.

No, it is not bad by definition. This is merely a huge beg of the question. Can you give any EVIDENCE that having gay parents is bad for children? Can you show it is worse than other family forms we allow, like single parenting?

I'd add that gay 'married' couples continue to be promiscous and break up faster than heterosexual couples, and that gay males die about 20 years sooner than their hetero counterparts. There is no need for gay parenting other than for the gay lobby to legitimatize their perversion.

As far as perversion, who gets to decide? Should we prevent heteros from marrying if the practice any sexual practices other than "standard face to face?"

Also, I'm open to seeing evidence for these claims as well. However, this does not necessarily address the child question.

In addition, there are other segments of the population that we could probably find that break up at greater rates than average or have shorter life spans. My guess is that, since money is the number one source of conflict between married couples, that poor people divorce at higher rates than others (and probably have shorter life spans). Should we set an income limit for people to get married? Prevent unemployed people from getting married? Convicts? People with an IQ below 80?



We typically allow people freedom to do what they want unless there is a compelling reason not to do so. We also typically try to treat everyone equally under the law.

So far, you have not provided any compelling reason not to allow gay marriage. You have claimed it is bad for children to be raised in a gay home, but provided nothing but unsubstantiated assertions to support that claim. I also don't see any other potential harms for allowing gay marriage that we don't already accept from other segments of the society. I would grant that divorce and single parenting are probably less than ideal for children. But we accept these harms and way, way more harm is being done by these activities as engaged in by heterosexuals than any likely number of gay marriages or even gay relationships. Gays are probably only 1 to 2% of the society or so.



I also agree promiscuity has consequences. But again, who is making heterosexual promiscuity illegal? Who is saying heteros should not get married because of promiscuity? Who is saying that heteros who are in populations that are more promiscuous should not be allowed to marry?



It seems to me that one central Christian value is judging fairly and equally. One of my main beefs with the anti-gay positions so many Christians take is that they are hypocritical. They judge gays and heteros by different yard sticks. They seek to place burdens on gays that they themselves would not carry, and that they do not seek to push on people who are not gay.


How can this be following the golden rule???

[kayky]

What is the "optimum" family situation for children?

Having a mother and father, for starters.

Isn't it being in a home where they are loved and supported without condition?

I notice the pro gay marriage side always compares a loving gay home with an unloving hetero home. All things being equal, kids are better off in a home with a mother and father.

I think kids are better off in a loving home, whether it's heterosexual or homosexual.

[McCulloch]

All things being equal, kids are better off in a home with a mother and father.

Two observations:
Primo, seldom are all things equal.

Secondo, do you have any empirical evidence to back up that children are better off in a home with a father and mother? What do you mean by better off? Better off than what: a single parent household or a equivalent two same-sex parent household?

[Mere_Christian]

All things being equal, kids are better off in a home with a mother and father.

Two observations:
Primo, seldom are all things equal.

Secondo, do you have any empirical evidence to back up that children are better off in a home with a father and mother? What do you mean by better off? Better off than what: a single parent household or a equivalent two same-sex parent household?

Juvenile Hall, Prisons, Youth residential facilities (Group Homes), psychiatric facilities, homeless shelters, STD's, drug addiction, school drop outs.

McCulloch, I have worked in the social service field for over twenty years and the percentage of people screwed up, come from the non nuclear family in such large numbers it will stagger you if you care to do a bit of research.

Give a call to Attorney Jeffrey Leving out of Chicago (812) 807-3990. He has some startling figures.

Opposing gay goals for society has nothing at all to do with bigotry or civil rights violations, but with a sensible rationale for the mental and physical health of children. Children within the foster family system (loving and warm as it may be) litter the juvenile justice system.

Gay rights is a very new structure for the family makeup. It will take time to see what this does to children. It does not bode well for expectations based on current pop culture that same-gender "parents" will raise people with a stable mental health.

I believe there was a vice president that once tried to bring our attention to the problem of broken families. He may have gotten patatoe wrong, but he was dead right about healthy children.