Is your gods punishment fair?

[Confused]

I am new to this site, so please bare with me if I seem a little of center. I will try to stick to the rules. After reading these threads for many years, I am just now getting the courage to start to ask questions of my own. feel free to correct me if I mess up.

Ok, lets for the sake of this thread say that the god of christianity is all knowing. Lets say the he knew what you were going to do before you were born, but loved you so much he still allowed your birth to occur. Let us even go far out into the left field and say that he knew what choices you would make in all decisions although he didn't force you to make them. I am not arguing free-will vs determinism. I am only wondering how it is that this god who knew what you would do, loved you so much he allowed your birth to do what you were going to do, and then punished you for doing what he knew you were going to do. If he already knew what would happen, and then allowed it to happen, how can he then turn around and sentence you to eternity in hell for what he knew you would do and allowed you to do?

Maybe I am missing some logical link here, but it seems to me that if this god knew the birth of an individual would result in the torture and death of even one person, isn't this god the actual guilty party for setting into motion an inevitable event? Is this the god that so many people would like for me to follow?

So does anyone know:
1) Does god love you so much that knowing what you would do and what you would become, he still allowed your birth so that you might know his love?

2) Is god some sadistic being who knows what you are going to do, allows you to be born, gets a cheap thrill watching you carry out some of the most sadistic crimes against humanity before sending you to the eternal fires of hell?

3) There is no god.

Personally, I have to say that there isn't enough available information to make an informed decision, but logic tells me its 3. If there is a god-fearing individual who can logically tell me otherwise, I would love to hear it.

[joer]

Joer,

First of all, we are getting closer and closer to showing how life began. Just keep up on the research that is happening in real science rather than completely relying upon the dogma of the church.
Second, you often fall into the God Of Gaps problem: If there is something we don't yet fully understand, "it must be god". If it is eventually explained, then comes denial. Once it is becomes accepted, it is ignored and The Church moves on to the next unknown phenomena or problem.

The Church simply follows the gaps as they move.

Hi Cmass. Not to worry. I do enjoy following and hearing about new scientific and potential scientific discoveries. While the God of Gaps dogma and doctrine of some non-believers maybe be used to describe some believers, it does not describe me.

You can rest assured that my world View of things has undergone at least as much development as yours. Albeit our experiences and learning’s may have led us to different conclusions just as the same things often happens between scientists speculating about new discoveries that will outdate old ides. Eventually time and effort will establish the record. Until the next new discovery knocks the old concept off it's pedestal and lifts a new idea up onto it.

And thus it will be with us my friend. IMHO.

Peace be with you my friend.

[Cmass]

You wrote

I see no evidence dead, rotting corpses can reconstitute themselves and fly through the air. I see no evidence snakes or donkeys have the brainpower or the kind of life-experience that would lead them to human vocalization.

The evidence I ask for should be within the material realm of your World View. Yet I see no evidence of the following you say you read.

Joer, I am looking for evidence of rotting corpses coming back to life and flying around in the sky. Are you asking for evidence of my Trail Elf?

Here is an actual photograph of Him fighting off a killer raccoon.

It seems like it would be pretty simple to produce the text of a book and some kind of notation of the source if needed. That’s not illogical is it?

Yes, it would indeed be simple. So simple that most anyone with the ability to write could present some to you. Would you consider text from the Trail Elf Scripture (Peace be with Him) solid evidence of His existence? Is scripture solid evidence of YOUR deity's existence?

But those who claim God is real have scriptures written, rewritten and shared with thousands and thousands of years of evidence recorded of their experienced, not felt, truth of life and living with God as there Guide.

Written, rewritten, shared like YOUR scripture? Heck no! The Trail Elf Scripture is pure. It is unadulterated, unpolluted by thousands of years of dust and numerous authors adding in and changing and copying stories. This is not based upon people handing down stories by word of mouth. If it were, it would be no more believable than the Koran or the Bible.

Do you have any evidence of anything you say? How can we know when you are telling the truth? Do you have any proof of any of the Truths you proclaim as objective that you subjectively choose to hold as true?

See the photo above.
So, where is a picture of Jesus? We have drawings of white European males with long hair and white robes, but where is the photo of Jesus? Do we have his bones? Do we have anything other than stories? Also, what are YOUR criteria for determining if another person's religious experience is valid? Are you a True Scotsman Christian?

You write:

I have little doubt there are things humans cannot yet see or perceive either through our senses or our extended senses provided by scientific tools. So what?

So this is what. Are they real or not? Do they exist even though you and science can’t sense them, or not?

Why jump from "there are likely things in the universe we cannot yet perceive" to There IS a personal god that talks to you, there are such things as ghosts, talking snakes & donkeys or flying corpses? Neither of us have any evidence that would lead us to believe that things we cannot yet see are necessarily some sort of talking superbeing. They could just be things as simple the Oort Cloud or black holes or dark energy – concepts that have developed from a theoretical and evidential basis and are being tested. Maybe we will find a god creature floating around out in the Oort cloud some day. Cool! But thus far, nothing points to any such thing.

You have a strange way of showing you “have a desire to know if god exists�

You have a strange way of showing your intellectual honesty: Your approach to problem solving consists of consultation of an old book of stories that make extraordinary claims without extraordinary evidence while supporting the dogmatic institution that surrounds it.
Nonetheless, I don’t need to “show you� or prove to you my desire to know if god exists. That is an utterly bizarre tact for you to take – but is consistent with a True Scotsman style Christian.

I just showed how your claimed desire to know if God exists is illogical

You did?

So I may not know your desires BUT I do know when your claimed ones like the last one are illogical.

No, you don’t know my desires.
You don’t know whether or not my desire to know god is real – but you think it is illogical? What a strange thing to say to someone.
How about yours? Is your desire to know god illogical too? Should we debate whether or not Joer’s desire to know god is logical?
Congratulations, this is the weirdest debate I’ve allowed myself to be drawn into in a long time!

but since you have no evidence other than your person feelings it is logical for me to assume it is wishful thinking.

So who’s arrogant now assuming they know my personal feelings?

I know only those feelings you express to me. You bring no evidence to any debate in this forum – only conjecture and what you have expressed as your personal feelings. You “feel� he exists and lots of other people do too. You also have a book of stories.

It sounds like Mr. Pseudoevidence with no admitted feelings in your discernment of reality?

“Mr. Pseudoevidence�? Very creative name. It is nonsensical in the context of this discussion, but creative nonetheless. I’ll try to think up one for you too. In the mean time I’ll stick with attempting to address what appear to be a rambling string of strange statements presented as debate.
Why do you think I don’t have any feelings in my discernment of reality? I am in fact a very emotional being which is a critical part of my experience. Are you going to attempt to prove this illogical too? Also, you are barking up the wrong tree if you think I know nothing of church or church goers or the feelings associated with religion. Heck, my mom is a church librarian for christsakes! I perform and very much enjoy traditional Christian music and, ironic timing, was a pallbearer at a good friend of mine’s father’s Catholic funeral on Saturday. I wept with them and worked through some issues with this mother afterwards. (Among other things I suggested she join a forum for widowers and be more active in her church since church is a critical part of her life and can keep her company) I certainly see why and how religion can become a part of people’s lives. I can understand how Christianity can become the religion of choice for a Caucasian American male from a Southern state – instead of say, Islam. I can see how lots and lots of people the world over believe in irrational things. I believe irrational things too. Death is scary and we all feel out of control in our lives and seek meaning. Regaining a feeling of control over our destiny by cozying up to a magical being can be very appealing.
But, alas, I also recognize there is no evidence for a personal god and that the stories in the bible are utterly absurd – as are many ancient stories of gods, goddesses and poorly written fiction novels. There is no inconsistency in my view.

[Cmass]

Joer,

First of all, we are getting closer and closer to showing how life began. Just keep up on the research that is happening in real science rather than completely relying upon the dogma of the church.
Second, you often fall into the God Of Gaps problem: If there is something we don't yet fully understand, "it must be god". If it is eventually explained, then comes denial. Once it is becomes accepted, it is ignored and The Church moves on to the next unknown phenomena or problem.

The Church simply follows the gaps as they move.

Hi Cmass. Not to worry. I do enjoy following and hearing about new scientific and potential scientific discoveries. While the God of Gaps dogma and doctrine of some non-believers maybe be used to describe some believers, it does not describe me.
You can rest assured that my world View of things has undergone at least as much development as yours. Albeit our experiences and learning’s may have led us to different conclusions just as the same things often happens between scientists speculating about new discoveries that will outdate old ides. Eventually time and effort will establish the record. Until the next new discovery knocks the old concept off it's pedestal and lifts a new idea up onto it.
And thus it will be with us my friend. IMHO.
Peace be with you my friend.

Hi Joer,
Learning and experience can indeed lead to different understandings among people including scientists. But be careful of putting them in the same boat. Surely you see a fundamental difference between two scientists going about the process of science and coming to two different conclusions and two religious people going about being religious and coming to two different conclusions.
Scientists use the same methodology and are subject to peer review. Eventually the correct theory is determined and accepted by the wider scientific community. Not so between religionists because they don't use the scientific method to determine who is right or wrong. Heck, sometimes they just battle it out in bloody wars. Interestingly enough, if there is one thing I have learned while in this forum it is that there are as many differences between various Christian groups as there are between Christian and non-Christians. I have witnessed numerous cases in this forum where Christians appear to agree more with the Atheist opposition on nearly every aspect of life, morals, world view etc.. than they do their fellow Christians. I would bet it has always been this way.

There is a fundamental difference between how scientists approach problem solving and how religious people approach problem solving. Religion is by it's very nature, dogmatic. The process of science, is not.

Remember, science is a process, religion is a set of beliefs. Science lets evidence lead to a conclusion. Religion starts with pre-defined conclusions - and in the case of some of the creationists looks for evidence to back it up, sometimes leading to utterly bizarre, childish notions such as dinosaurs and people living together.

[joer]

OnceConvinced wrote:

joer wrote:

I think looking for a miracle to prove to yourself that God exists is a mistake.

I guess Ezra had the greatest proof of all about God. He got to speak to Jesus in the flesh! Something we in the 21st century will never get. No doubt he also saw a lot of amazing miracles preformed by Jesus (if the stories are true).

The thing is God quite happily gave signs and wonders to people throughout the bible and Jesus continued with that standard himself.

The thing is Once, God isn’t like that and Jesus didn’t say he was. I don’t think Ezra ever saw Jesus again. He met Jesus when Jesus was traveling. Jesus wasn’t even famous yet. And If you look at the story as recounted. Jesus didn’t anything more then speak the truth to Ezra and point out the things from the Hebrew Scriptures that lit up Ezra’s heart mind and soul. Jesus didn’t appear in front of Ezra like a GOD. He walked in Ezra’s Tavern like any human being. And Jesus wasn’t famous he was just another traveler. Jesus didn’t do anything spectacular he JUST TALKED TO EZRA as Ezra’s expressed his desire to know God to Jesus. Here’s what I wrote. Notice it was only 2 days before your post. Not that long ago:
Post 558: Fri May 08, 2009 2:46 am

P.1440 - §2 At Syracuse they spent a full week. The notable event of their stop here was the rehabilitation of Ezra, the backslidden Jew, who kept the tavern where Jesus and his companions stopped. Ezra was charmed by Jesus' approach and asked him to help him come back to the faith of Israel. He expressed his hopelessness by saying, "I want to be a true son of Abraham, but I cannot find God." Said Jesus: "If you truly want to find God, that desire is in itself evidence that you have already found him. Your trouble is not that you cannot find God, for the Father has already found you; your trouble is simply that you do not know God. Have you not read in the Prophet Jeremiah, `You shall seek me and find me when you shall search for me with all your heart'? And again, does not this same prophet say: `And I will give you a heart to know me, that I am the Lord, and you shall belong to my people, and I will be your God'? And have you not also read in the Scriptures where it says: `He looks down upon men, and if any will say: I have sinned and perverted that which was right, and it profited me not, then will God deliver that man's soul from darkness, and he shall see the light'?"And Ezra found God and to the satisfaction of his soul.

So now look at this which is from what I endearingly call The Bible of the Skeptic. Nathaniel used to be skeptical And he noticed right off the bat what ALL OF US TRUE RELIGIONISTS and Non RELIGIONISTS noticed when we got our organized religion instruction or life's education. The NT (Jesus Teachings) didn’t jive with the old OT (Hebrew Scriptures). But we were told to accept it by Our Church. Whatever it was. Now here’s what Jesus said to Nathaniel the fundamentalist when he ask Jesus how do you reconcile that? And this is what Jesus told him according to what God’s beings tell us this century that coincides with the scientific knowledge we have recently gain to illuminate us to errors in the Bible.

4. THE TALK WITH NATHANIEL - P.1767
P.1767 - §3 And then went Jesus over to Abila, where Nathaniel and his associates labored. Nathaniel was much bothered by some of Jesus' pronouncements which seemed to detract from the authority of the recognized Hebrew scriptures. Accordingly, on this night, after the usual period of questions and answers, Nathaniel took Jesus away from the others and asked: "Master, could you trust me to know the truth about the Scriptures? I observe that you teach us only a portion of the sacred writings--the best as I view it--and I infer that you reject the teachings of the rabbis to the effect that the words of the law are the very words of God, having been with God in heaven even before the times of Abraham and Moses. What is the truth about the Scriptures?" When Jesus heard the question of his bewildered apostle, he answered:

P.1767 - §4 "Nathaniel, you have rightly judged; I do not regard the Scriptures as do the rabbis. I will talk with you about this matter on condition that you do not relate these things to your brethren, who are not all prepared to receive this teaching. The words of the law of Moses and the teachings of the Scriptures were not in existence before Abraham. Only in recent times have the Scriptures been gathered together as we now have them. While they contain the best of the higher thoughts and longings of the Jewish people, they also contain much that is far from being representative of the character and teachings of the Father in heaven; wherefore must I choose from among the better teachings those truths which are to be gleaned for the gospel of the kingdom.

P.1767 - §5 "These writings are the work of men, some of them holy men, others not so holy. The teachings of these books represent the views and extent of enlightenment of the times in which they had their origin. As a revelation of truth, the last are more dependable than the first. The Scriptures are faulty and altogether human in origin, but mistake not, they do constitute the best collection of religious wisdom and spiritual truth to be found in all the world at this time.

P.1767 - §6 "Many of these books were not written by the persons whose names they bear, but that in no way detracts from the value of the truths which they contain. If the story of Jonah should not be a fact, even if Jonah had never lived, still would the profound truth of this narrative, the love of God for Nineveh and the so-called heathen, be none the less precious in the eyes of all those who love their fellow men. The Scriptures are sacred because they present the thoughts and acts of men who were searching for God, and who in these writings left on record their highest concepts of righteousness, truth, and holiness. The Scriptures contain much that is true, very much, but in the light of your present teaching, you know that these writings also contain much that is misrepresentative of the Father in heaven, the loving God I have come to reveal to all the worlds.

P.1768 - §1 "Nathaniel, never permit yourself for one moment to believe the Scripture records which tell you that the God of love directed your forefathers to go forth in battle to slay all their enemies--men, women, and children. Such records are the words of men, not very holy men, and they are not the word of God. The Scriptures always have, and always will, reflect the intellectual, moral, and spiritual status of those who create them. Have you not noted that the concepts of Yahweh grow in beauty and glory as the prophets make their records from Samuel to Isaiah? And you should remember that the Scriptures are intended for religious instruction and spiritual guidance. They are not the works of either historians or philosophers.

P.1768 - §2 "The thing most deplorable is not merely this erroneous idea of the absolute perfection of the Scripture record and the infallibility of its teachings, but rather the confusing misinterpretation of these sacred writings by the tradition-enslaved scribes and Pharisees at Jerusalem. And now will they employ both the doctrine of the inspiration of the Scriptures and their misinterpretations thereof in their determined effort to withstand these newer teachings of the gospel of the kingdom. Nathaniel, never forget, the Father does not limit the revelation of truth to any one generation or to any one people. Many earnest seekers after the truth have been, and will continue to be, confused and disheartened by these doctrines of the perfection of the Scriptures.

P.1768 - §3 "The authority of truth is the very spirit that indwells its living manifestations, and not the dead words of the less illuminated and supposedly inspired men of another generation. And even if these holy men of old lived inspired and spirit-filled lives, that does not mean that their words were similarly spiritually inspired. Today we make no record of the teachings of this gospel of the kingdom lest, when I have gone, you speedily become divided up into sundry groups of truth contenders as a result of the diversity of your interpretation of my teachings. For this generation it is best that we live these truths while we shun the making of records.

P.1768 - §4 "Mark you well my words, Nathaniel, nothing which human nature has touched can be regarded as infallible. Through the mind of man divine truth may indeed shine forth, but always of relative purity and partial divinity. The creature may crave infallibility, but only the Creators possess it.

P.1768 - §5 "But the greatest error of the teaching about the Scriptures is the doctrine of their being sealed books of mystery and wisdom which only the wise minds of the nation dare to interpret. The revelations of divine truth are not sealed except by human ignorance, bigotry, and narrow-minded intolerance. The light of the Scriptures is only dimmed by prejudice and darkened by superstition. A false fear of sacredness has prevented religion from being safeguarded by common sense. The fear of the authority of the sacred writings of the past effectively prevents the honest souls of today from accepting the new light of the gospel, the light which these very God-knowing men of another generation so intensely longed to see.

P.1769 - §1 "But the saddest feature of all is the fact that some of the teachers of the sanctity of this traditionalism know this very truth. They more or less fully understand these limitations of Scripture, but they are moral cowards, intellectually dishonest. They know the truth regarding the sacred writings, but they prefer to withhold such disturbing facts from the people. And thus do they pervert and distort the Scriptures, making them the guide to slavish details of the daily life and an authority in things nonspiritual instead of appealing to the sacred writings as the repository of the moral wisdom, religious inspiration, and the spiritual teaching of the God-knowing men of other generations."

P.1769 - §2 Nathaniel was enlightened, and shocked, by the Master's pronouncement. He long pondered this talk in the depths of his soul, but he told no man concerning this conference until after Jesus' ascension; and even then he feared to impart the full story of the Master's instruction.

What’s right with the Bible? And Jesus tells us that too:

5. THE POSITIVE NATURE OF JESUS' RELIGION - P.1769
P.1769 - §3 At Philadelphia, where James was working, Jesus taught the disciples about the positive nature of the gospel of the kingdom. When, in the course of his remarks, he intimated that some parts of the Scripture were more truth-containing than others and admonished his hearers to feed their souls upon the best of the spiritual food, James interrupted the Master, asking: "Would you be good enough, Master, to suggest to us how we may choose the better passages from the Scriptures for our personal edification?" And Jesus replied: "Yes, James, when you read the Scriptures look for those eternally true and divinely beautiful teachings, such as:

P.1769 - §4 "Create in me a clean heart, O Lord.

P.1769 - §5 "The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.

P.1769 - §6 "You should love your neighbor as yourself.

P.1769 - §7 "For I, the Lord your God, will hold your right hand, saying, fear not; I will help you.

P.1769 - §8 "Neither shall the nations learn war any more."

P.1769 - §9 And this is illustrative of the way Jesus, day by day, appropriated the cream of the Hebrew scriptures for the instruction of his followers and for inclusion in the teachings of the new gospel of the kingdom. Other religions had suggested the thought of the nearness of God to man, but Jesus made the care of God for man like the solicitude of a loving father for the welfare of his dependent children and then made this teaching the cornerstone of his religion. And thus did the doctrine of the fatherhood of God make imperative the practice of the brotherhood of man. The worship of God and the service of man became the sum and substance of his religion. Jesus took the best of the Jewish religion and translated it to a worthy setting in the new teachings of the gospel of the kingdom.

So Once that is part of God's message to you today. trying to straighten out the mess humans have made of his message. But he had to wait until we advanced enough to share this with us.

So Now the Truths that the skeptics have discovered are validated by God. But because of the incessant pounding of religious fundamentalist that this was wrong. They rejected religion because they knew in their hearts it was True. And they felt their prayers to God were not answered. And now that God has heard their prayers and provided the truth and revealed knowledge that what they have maintained as truth for years that was unacceptable to fundamentalist religion is NOW VALIDATED BY GOD. And these skeptics are recognized as those who paid attention to the truth and rejected it not when threatened with modern day persecutions by the modern day Saddusees and Pharisees with Hell Fire and Brimstone. God has lifted them up with this new revelation, for rejecting that which was untrue.

But if they reject this gift they (the skeptics) both believer and non-believer will not know that God has heard them and present this gift to the world. AGAIN as He has done for Thousands and thousands of years. To give us a spiritual update on the truth according to our newly found ability to understand it.

Peace Once.

So religious fundamentalists insist the Bible is 100% True. Non-religious Fundamentalists insist the Bible is 100% false. BUT Jesus says, "when you read the Scriptures look for those eternally true and divinely beautiful teachings"

[Cmass]

Hey Joer, please ease up on the scripture copy & paste debate style. It is horribly tedious to read. I would much rather read your own literary concoctions. At the very least, paraphrase. The bible is often redundant, slow and wordy. (No, god was not a particularly good author) I find it works better than Ambien as a sleep aid.

Blessings,

Chris

[Zzyzx]

.

Hey Joer, please ease up on the scripture copy & paste debate style. It is horribly tedious to read.

Debate? Someone actually reads the scriptural propaganda?

I would much rather read your own literary concoctions.

Creative and imaginative.

At the very least, paraphrase. The bible is often redundant, slow and wordy.

It was evidently written to confuse, confound and produce conflict rather than to inform or guide.

(No, god was not a particularly good author) I find it works better than Ambien as a sleep aid.

Was there a "god" directly involved in writing of the bible stories?

[OnceConvinced]

.
It was evidently written to confuse, confound and produce conflict rather than to inform or guide.

You really think so? I would have thought it was unwittingly written to confuse, confound and produce conflict. The intentions were probably good. I see it now as a whole pile of jigsaw puzzles carelessly thrown together as one and we are expected to make one gigantic picture out of it, by fitting all the pieces together.

[Easyrider]

Hey Joer, please ease up on the scripture copy & paste debate style. It is horribly tedious to read. I would much rather read your own literary concoctions. At the very least, paraphrase. The bible is often redundant, slow and wordy. (No, god was not a particularly good author) I find it works better than Ambien as a sleep aid.

Blessings,

Chris

I disagree. The Bible, and Joer's posts, are magnificent illustrations of what he is trying to get across to those who hope to understand the Bible better.

[OnceConvinced]

The thing is Once, God isn’t like that and Jesus didn’t say he was. I don’t think Ezra ever saw Jesus again. He met Jesus when Jesus was traveling. Jesus wasn’t even famous yet. And If you look at the story as recounted. Jesus didn’t anything more then speak the truth to Ezra and point out the things from the Hebrew Scriptures that lit up Ezra’s heart mind and soul. Jesus didn’t appear in front of Ezra like a GOD. He walked in Ezra’s Tavern like any human being. And Jesus wasn’t famous he was just another traveler. Jesus didn’t do anything spectacular he JUST TALKED TO EZRA as Ezra’s expressed his desire to know God to Jesus. Here’s what I wrote. Notice it was only 2 days before your post. Not that long ago:

How can you be so sure that Ezra did not witness any of the miracles Jesus performed throughout his ministry? Jesus obviously had made a name for himself, because crowds flocked to see him. People begged him for healing, knowing of his miracles. Crowds welcomed him as he rode into Jerusalem. The powers that be wanted him dead. I'd say he was indeed a bit of a celebrity. And the fact still remains is that Ezra got to meet the "son of God" in the flesh. Surely there must have been something about Jesus, in his aura, that would have made people see him as something special.

As for your comment about God and Jesus not being like that, the bible paints an entirely different picture. The bible throughout is full of stories about the signs and wonders God and Jesus did, many at the request of people or to make a point and yes even to increase faith. God and Jesus were clearly not shy when it came to performing signs and wonders. It's only now that we see none of that sort of stuff today that we have to try to change the way we see God when looking at the bible. We have to justify his inaction in some way, so we declare that it's not his policy to prove himself.

I'm intrigued by your later quotes in this post. I have never heard of the book you are quoting from there. Bible of the Sceptic?

[joer]

Hey Joer, please ease up on the scripture copy & paste debate style. It is horribly tedious to read. I would much rather read your own literary concoctions. At the very least, paraphrase. The bible is often redundant, slow and wordy. (No, god was not a particularly good author) I find it works better than Ambien as a sleep aid.

Blessings,

Chris

Sorry Chris. I'll what I can do. The Elf story was good. I'll see if I can concoct one like that to put to sleep. It may not take so long.

Peace and sweet dreams my friend. The God you claim to search for is waiting to see if you mean it. Well He may not be. (But I'll bet He is!) But I am. joe