If Christ is not risen

[Yolande]

Do you aree?

And do you agree that Jesus Christ was risen from the dead?

And if you believe He has was risen from the dead, where is He now?

And how is that supposed to make a difference in people's lives if He was?

“And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up; if in fact the dead do not rise. For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.�
     -1 Corinthians 15:14-19 (NKJV)

Please share your thoughts on these questions and also on the statement from Paul.

[Yolande]

It seems that where your interpretation of what Paul said about Christ doesn't fit in with the rest of the bible, you are ready to rip some pages out of your bible. Rather than to re-examine your interpretation of Paul.

I have examined Paul for many years and have not reached my conclusions without a great deal of study and thought. No page ripping was involved.

.

I was talking about how you want to rip the pages of John's gospel out, where Jesus called the Jews children of their father the devil,
Because what Jesus said there doesn't fit with your ideas.

Futhermore it seems that this is going in circles.
1. You make up your own definition of Christ. And even when we spent so much time going through the wikipedia definition of Christ and how the early church understood Christ, you stick with your believe. It seems like you will bend any fact and any definition to fit to your understanding.
2. Furthermore, whenever scriptures is quoted to show you your error, you either twist the scriptures, or dismiss them as not true, or made up, or ancient people's ideas. You have no desire it seems, to interpret Paul's message in context with the rest of the bible. But rather would trim the bible to fit with your concept of christ.

I am not here because I love debating nor arguing. I am here because I have a passion for truth and for people to be saved from their sins,washed by the precious blood of Jesus. And I believe in the power of sowing the seed of God's Word..
If it was just that you are yourself not wanting this salvation that Jesus alone can bring, but rather want to believe yourself to be christ, it would be one thing. But now you try to hinder others from hearing the gospel and for the Word of God to fall into people's hearts, by sowing a different gospel in between, creating confusion amoung the hearers about the good news gospel Christianity has to offer.
Hindering them from entering, by your stubborn determination to have to be right. That saddens me.

[micatala]

Moderator Comment

I am not here because I love debating nor arguing. I am here because I have a passion for truth and for people to be saved from their sins,washed by the precious blood of Jesus. And I believe in the power of sowing the seed of God's Word..
If it was just that you are yourself not wanting this salvation that Jesus alone can bring, but rather want to believe yourself to be christ, it would be one thing. But now you try to hinder others from hearing the gospel and for the Word of God to fall into people's hearts, by sowing a different gospel in between, creating confusion amoung the hearers about the good news gospel Christianity has to offer.
Hindering them from entering, by your stubborn determination to have to be right. That saddens me.

I appreciate the sincerity of purpose expressed here. Also, members are certainly free to proceed from any viewpoint or motivation they wish, or to pursue any ends they wish in their participation. However, this is a debate site and we do ask all members to adhere to the rules for the forum.

Now, there are various sections of the forum, including one section for Debate and another for Discussion. If you do wish to engage more in the latter than the former, I would commend you to that section.

Finally, with respect to this thread, my perception is that there is debate going on, but that it is largely based on Biblical arguments with the implicit assumption that the Bible is taken as a given. It is also largely between believers so far in the thread.

Given this, I am going to move the thread to the Theology and Dogma forum where the guidelines are actually intended to allow for the type of debate going on in this thread.

[McCulloch]

And do you agree that Jesus Christ was risen from the dead?

Literally, no. Got any evidence to the contrary?

I haven't spent years of my life researching this. I believe He is alive for I know He is alive in me.

How do you know that? Can you expect anyone else to believe based on your feeling?

But there are others who apparently have done so, like for example the professor quoted in the following link.
http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/eas ... josh2.html

"I claim to be an historian. My approach to Classics is historical. And I tell you that the evidence for the life, the death, and the resurrection of Christ is better authenticated than most of the facts of ancient history . . .

E. M. Blaiklock
Professor of Classics
Auckland University"

Have you got anyone more recent or alive? Blaiklock died in 1983. Or even better, present some evidence.

[cnorman18]

Paul was a Jew. A devoted Pharisee. Highly regarded amoung his people (before his conversion) and educated in the best possible "school".

In point of fact, there is some doubt about those allegations.

In spite of the claims made by Paul himself, there is internal evidence in Paul's letters that he may not have even been Jewish; and if he was, he was far out of step with the Judaism of his day and rather clearly did not understand or share some of the most basic teachings of it.

First, it's doubtful that Paul could read Hebrew. All of his Scripture quotations are from the Septuagint, the Greek OT, which was not highly thought of nor much consulted among the Jews of Palestine.

Second, he claims to know that he is of the tribe of Benjamin, which is very peculiar. Even in his day, few Jews other than Levites knew their tribal affiliation (and this remains true today). This would be even more unusual in a Jew from Tarsus, which was a backwater of the Jewish world and much more influenced by Greek culture.

Third, though Paul claims to have studied with the great rabbi Gamaliel, there is no evidence whatever of Gamaliel's influence in anything Paul teaches or says.

Fourth, and again in spite of Paul's claims, there is no evidence whatever outside of the New Testament that Paul (then Saul) was well-known or highly respected in the Jewish community, or indeed that anyone had ever heard of him before he began preaching his Gospel.

Most importantly, though, and a matter of concern whether any of the foregoing ought to be or not, is the matter of Paul's teachings about Judaism running directly counter to traditional Jewish understandings. Most prominently, when Paul says that the Law is a burden and imparts death rather than life, he sets himself at odds with every Jew and every rabbi in his world.

Pick a Psalm. The Law has always been regarded by Jews as God's most precious gift, a light into one's path and a lamp into one's feet, sweet as honey, more valuable and to be cherished than silver or gold. Saying the Law is a burden and a trial, to a Jew, is analogous to a Christian calling the Gospel "the Bad News." It's so bizarre that one wonders where it might have come from. It certainly didn't come from Gamaliel, from the Torah, or the Hebrew Bible. There are other matters of concern as well, but that one stands out like the proverbial sore thumb.

Notice; I do not assert as a matter of fact that Paul was not Jewish. I say that the matter is in doubt, which it absolutely is.

To Jews it was a disgrace to even talk to Gentiles. What to say even eat with them and mix with them.

That is simply a falsehood. Jews were obliged to talk and interact with non-Jews daily as a necessity of making a living and in everyday life. The discussions about dealings with Gentiles in the Talmud are so extensive and wide-ranging that there can be no doubt of that; and the Torah itself prohibits discrimination and injustice against non-Jews. Throughout Jewish history, it has been Gentiles, and most commonly Christians, who have regarded interaction with Jews as a disgrace, rather than the other way around. There have been times and places when Jews have been required to withdraw from the greater society and keep to themselves, but that was much more often a matter of Gentile civil law than of Jewish preference. Jews were not restricted to ghettos and shtetls as a matter of choice.

On the correctness of Paul's doctrines in Christian terms I have no opinion. It's none of my business, and I'll leave those questions to Christians. All I am addressing here is the fact that his teachings had, and have, very, very little to do with Judaism.

[Yolande]

The message of Christianity is not that Christ died and therefore the moral lessons of Jesus has merit and a Christian should therefore honour the teatchings of Jesus and strive to be a good person by abiding to it.

No.

The message of Christianity is this. Christ rose and I, the believer in Him rose with Him.
It is a mystery.
It was prophecied hy Hosea 6:2
"After two days He will revive us;
On the third day He will raise us up,
That we may live in His sight".

Therefore Paul can say, I have been crucified with Christ, it is no longer I that live but Christ who lives in me.

The real test is thus, is Christ living in the believer?
Or is there believers in whom Christ lives.
Who has His love and nature and character.
And who does the same things He did?

This I can prove. For there are believers all around the world like that.
And in this end time move of God you will see all the more of them.

God had one Son born of Him, Jesus, he was like a seed sown and when He rose, many sons rose with Him.
God is looking for His harvest.
Sons are those mature in Him (not baby christians), those who have come of age, that knows the Father.
Jesus only started His ministry at 30 and even He grew and matured in statue until He was ready to move out in ministry (He increased in wisdom and stature and in favor with God and men Luke 2:52).

The issue however is, will you believe if you see maturing sons of God operating in the power of God today?
Or will you explain it away?
People who don't believe and are determined not to believe, will not believe, even if before their very eyes they see miracles.

See Romans 8

And do you agree that Jesus Christ was risen from the dead?

Literally, no. Got any evidence to the contrary?

I haven't spent years of my life researching this. I believe He is alive for I know He is alive in me.

How do you know that? Can you expect anyone else to believe based on your feeling?

But there are others who apparently have done so, like for example the professor quoted in the following link.
http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/eas ... josh2.html

"I claim to be an historian. My approach to Classics is historical. And I tell you that the evidence for the life, the death, and the resurrection of Christ is better authenticated than most of the facts of ancient history . . .

E. M. Blaiklock
Professor of Classics
Auckland University"

Have you got anyone more recent or alive? Blaiklock died in 1983. Or even better, present some evidence.

[Yolande]

All I am addressing here is the fact that his teachings had, and have, very, very little to do with Judaism
.

Here I differ from you.

Genesis is about God calling Abraham.
Abraham came from Ur, a idol worshipping unbelieving people.
God gave Abraham promises.
The bible says in Genesis, Abraham BELIEVED God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.
Not any good deed Abraham did was counted to him as righteousness, BUT believing God.

Then God prepared a people from Abraham.
It is said from his SEED will be blessed all the families of the earth.
Not seeds.
Therefore referring to ONE,
Which is Christ.

The physical descendants of Abraham was Israel.
The spiritual descendants of Abraham is everybody that believed God's promise like Abraham, and by believing is put right with God. This promise of God we are supposed to believe is in His Seed, Jesus Christ.

Now the journey of the physical Israelites are depicted in the bible as a TYPE of the spiritual journey for those who are the spiritual descendants of Abraham.

First they need to come out of the land of slavery.
So we as believers are slaves to sin, and by putting the blood of the lamb on the door of our hearts we are lead out of this land of slavery.
The Holy Spirit is our cloud by day and our fire pillar by night leading us to our promised land, of inheriting everything God had put in place for us In Christ.

After 50 days Israel comes to the mountain of Sinai where the law is given.
Afther 50 days of Christs ressurection the believers comes to pentecost where the Spirit is poured out.
On that day of the law is given 3000 people are killed.
On the day the Spirit is given 3000 are added to the Church.
The letter kills but the Spirit gives life, is what Paul explains.

Now in their journey, Christ is preached to the Jews over and over and over again, but they are blinded and can not see Him.
He is the manna from heaven. He is the lamb that needs to be slaughtered. He is the rock that brings living water.
And when they are bitten by snakes, Moses had to make a snake on a bronze pole, that should they look at him, they would cure of their invection.
In same way, Christ was made a curse, for us, on a pole, and as we behold Him, we are cured from our condition, the wages of our sin.
There are many more shadows of Christ, all through their journey, at every place they stopped.

The tabernacle has 3 portions, the outercourt, the holies and the holy of holies.
In the tabernacle is the golden candlestick, the bread etc.
Then in the holy of Holies are the mercy seat.
These are all spiritual types which are explained by Paul in the new testament
There symbolism is extremely rich to the believer.
Look the book of Hebrews.

Most Christians live today in the outer court.
Some have come to the middle section, living in Pentecost and the gifts of the Spirit.
But very very few have stepped into the Holy of Holies, of which Christ ripped the veil, when He died, it was torn. To live in this place is to live in a realm of glory, that is necessary for us to enter in, if we want to rule this earth, with authority and power. Adam was called to rule. He didn't and fell. God is raising a new people. He wants His glory to fill the whole earth. But He will do this through His sons.

The old Testament conceils what the New Testament reveals,
And Paul plays a central role in explaining to us the central message of the bible from Genesis to Revelations.

In the Jewish Passover feasts celebrated they still keep an empty seat for the Messiah to come.
They break the bread in 3, the middle part they hide, then the children go and look for it and find it and bring it back.
Symbolising God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Jesus was taken out and buried. After 3 days He was brought back.
All the Jewish feasts is about Christ.
The symbolism of all of the is the Gospel that Paul preached.
But they are blinded and can not see Him, of which their religion is all about.


Revelations is the revelation of Jesus Christ. And no believer will be able to understand it without Paul, and then by using Paul's gospel and understanding the shadows of the Old Testament, the revelation of Christ can be behold.
The bible contains many and great mysteries. For the one that by grace is granted to see and to enter in, it is not a set of loose ancient books, it is a whole, everything wonderfully woven together. And in Pauls letters we find the keys to unlock it all.

[Yolande]

Some more on Paul
http://sigler.org/walter/gospel_according_to_paul.htm

[karilovesjehovah]

And do you agree that Jesus Christ was risen from the dead?

And if you believe He has was risen from the dead, where is He now?

And how is that supposed to make a difference in people's lives if He was?

Yes, I agree that Jesus rose from the dead. Isn't the ultimate penalty for sin death? Weren't Adam and Eve meant to live forever in God's garden of Eden until they sinned? So if we are in agreement that Jesus never sinned, than how could he die and not be risen?

Where is he now? Acts 1:9-11 says
"When he had said this, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him from their sight. While they were looking intently at the sky as he was going, suddenly two men dressed in white garments stood beside them. They said, 'Men of Galilee, why are you standing there looking at the sky? This Jesus who has been taken up from you into heaven will return in the same way as you have seen him going into heaven.'"
I, along with most other Christians, believe that Jesus is in heaven, seated at the right hand of God.

And why does it make a difference whether he rose or not? It makes a difference because anyone could have died on a cross--criminals were crucified often. But only one rose from the dead, even after suffering such a fate as he did. It makes a difference in your life and mine because we know that death does not bind God. Jesus conquered death, he was not extinguished by it. We also know that God will fulfill his promises. Didn't Jesus himself tell the disciples that he would be risen from the dead, even before he died? And he rose on the third day, just like he promised! I know that's comforting to me!

"Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
"Death is swallowed up in victory."
"O death, where is thy victory?
O death, where is thy sting?"
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:31-58 RSV)

The Apostle Paul said to the Athenians, "The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all men everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and of this he has given assurance to all men by raising him from the dead." (Acts 17:30-31 RSV)

[Scotracer]

And do you agree that Jesus Christ was risen from the dead?

And if you believe He has was risen from the dead, where is He now?

And how is that supposed to make a difference in people's lives if He was?

Yes, I agree that Jesus rose from the dead. Isn't the ultimate penalty for sin death? Weren't Adam and Eve meant to live forever in God's garden of Eden until they sinned? So if we are in agreement that Jesus never sinned, than how could he die and not be risen?

I do not agree with your statement that Adam and Eve were supposed to live forever. If they were...why did they have to eat? Eating is only to keep one alive.

[Yolande]

They ate from the tree of life.

PS: Scotracer, why do you believe Jahweh is the songod?

And do you agree that Jesus Christ was risen from the dead?

And if you believe He has was risen from the dead, where is He now?

And how is that supposed to make a difference in people's lives if He was?

Yes, I agree that Jesus rose from the dead. Isn't the ultimate penalty for sin death? Weren't Adam and Eve meant to live forever in God's garden of Eden until they sinned? So if we are in agreement that Jesus never sinned, than how could he die and not be risen?

I do not agree with your statement that Adam and Eve were supposed to live forever. If they were...why did they have to eat? Eating is only to keep one alive.