A Deluge of Evidence for the Flood?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
LittlePig
Sage
Posts: 916
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:51 pm
Location: Dallas, TX

A Deluge of Evidence for the Flood?

Post #1

Post by LittlePig »

otseng wrote:
goat wrote:
otseng wrote:
LittlePig wrote: And I can't think of any reason you would make the comment you made if you weren't suggesting that the find favored your view of a worldwide flood.
Umm, because simply it's a better explanation? And the fact that it's more consistent with the Flood Model doesn't hurt either. ;)
Except, of course, it isn't consistent with a 'Flood Model', since it isn't mixed in with any animals that we know are modern.
Before the rabbits multiply beyond control, I'll just leave my proposal as a rapid burial. Nothing more than that. For this thread, it can just be a giant mud slide.
Since it's still spring time, let's let the rabbits multiply.

Questions for Debate:

1) Does a Global Flood Model provide the best explanation for our current fossil record, geologic formations, and biodiversity?

2) What real science is used in Global Flood Models?

3) What predictions does a Global Flood Model make?

4) Have Global Flood Models ever been subjected to a formal peer review process?
"Well thanks a lot, Plato." - James ''Sawyer'' Ford
"Don''t flip ya lid." - Ricky Rankin

User avatar
Scotracer
Guru
Posts: 1772
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:25 pm
Location: Scotland

Post #931

Post by Scotracer »

micatala wrote:Let me just remind everyone the topic of debate here is the flood, not evolution.

Certainly fossils are relevant to both issues, but let's stick with arguments that relate to the existence or non-existence of the flood and move any debate on other evolutionary issues to another thread.
nygreenguy wrote:
micatala wrote:Let me just remind everyone the topic of debate here is the flood, not evolution.

Certainly fossils are relevant to both issues, but let's stick with arguments that relate to the existence or non-existence of the flood and move any debate on other evolutionary issues to another thread.
If you read my post, you would see evolution is on the topic of the flood. If there was a global flood, and an ark, then there is no way all the species could have fit on the ark. This is why creationists often say he just put "kinds" on the boat. So, if these kinds come off the ark, we need SOME sort of evolution in order to explain the current biodiversity we see today.

So evolution is totally on topic.
I agree with nygreenguy. We should revert back to this post however as it contains the relevant objections:
nygreenguy wrote:
goat wrote:
Not all the time. There was the bottle neck as evident in the human population some 70,000 years ago.

You will see a 'bottleneck' anytime you have a 'founder' effect. Of course, since the vast majority of species that have existed are now extinct, just existing 'almost' always ends in extinction.
Which is why I said "almost" always. The founder effect is a different type of bottleneck. When you have mass extinctions, whats happening is you are loosing the ability to survive in your niche, and there isnt enough genetic diversity to allow you to adapt.

Now, with humans we have somewhat circumvented this process in that our minds make up for the shortfalls of our body. We dont require as much genetic change in order to adapt as something like a plant does.

Founders tend to have it different. Yes, they have become reproductively isolated from the main population, but they are also in a novel niche. In these novel niches we usually see one of 3 things.

1) Death. The population simply isnt able to cope with the new area.

2) Exploitation. This novel new areas have open niches which the population can fully exploit. There is where our invasive species fall. No natural predators or diseases mean they are able to outcompete almost everything else around.

3) Rapid evolution. This is often seen on islands, and this explains why island species are just so strange. In these novel new areas, traits which may have not been beneficial in the main population may be highly beneficial in the new area. Take for example the old birds of new zealand. 9 foot high flightless birds, and no mammalian predators. No need to fly.

Now, if there was a global flood, the post flood conditions would be devastating. The soil would be washed away, the vegetation would be dead. Where would there even BE freshwater? Even a little bit of salt would be toxic to almost anything which survived. So, we have ALL of this AND competition for space. How would animals such as deer not only be able to survive all this, but still somehow manage to migrate all the way to the americas? Do you know how much FOOD a deer would need to consume to make this journey?

The list goes on, and on, and on, and on to how the flood could have NEVER happened.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 942#273942
Why Evolution is True
Universe from nothing

Claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence
- Christopher Hitchens

xcept
Banned
Banned
Posts: 145
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:22 pm

Post #932

Post by xcept »

Cathar1950 wrote:
xcept wrote:Your quote reveals who you are and what you stand for.

Nothing in evolution is proved true.

The fact that life can speciate doesn't prove they can jump from one species to another.
They don't jump from one species to another as they slowly change over time as a population. If you understood evolution you would know that and not make such statements that show a lack of understanding even the basics.
An individual doesn't evolve, populations evolve.
If you understood evolution, you would realize its false. Stop believing in fairytales fed to you by mainstream media. People use the theory in order to gain grant monies and continue their careers. How do you think paleontologists get paid? Grants. Maybe you should look into that more instead of blindly following a lie based upon your faith.

User avatar
Goat
Site Supporter
Posts: 24999
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:09 pm
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 207 times

Post #933

Post by Goat »

xcept wrote:
Cathar1950 wrote:
xcept wrote:Your quote reveals who you are and what you stand for.

Nothing in evolution is proved true.

The fact that life can speciate doesn't prove they can jump from one species to another.
They don't jump from one species to another as they slowly change over time as a population. If you understood evolution you would know that and not make such statements that show a lack of understanding even the basics.
An individual doesn't evolve, populations evolve.
If you understood evolution, you would realize its false. Stop believing in fairytales fed to you by mainstream media. People use the theory in order to gain grant monies and continue their careers. How do you think paleontologists get paid? Grants. Maybe you should look into that more instead of blindly following a lie based upon your faith.
Actually, I don't see any evidence you do understand evolution to be able to make that determination. I see the standard Creationist claims that show a strong lack of understanding of what evolution is, and the evidence for evolution. Huge straw men are being created to batter down.

I would say that you should stop believing in fairy tales that your creationist web sites have promoted.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

User avatar
Cathar1950
Site Supporter
Posts: 10503
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:12 pm
Location: Michigan(616)
Been thanked: 2 times

Post #934

Post by Cathar1950 »

xcept wrote:
Cathar1950 wrote:
xcept wrote:Your quote reveals who you are and what you stand for.

Nothing in evolution is proved true.

The fact that life can speciate doesn't prove they can jump from one species to another.
They don't jump from one species to another as they slowly change over time as a population. If you understood evolution you would know that and not make such statements that show a lack of understanding even the basics.
An individual doesn't evolve, populations evolve.
If you understood evolution, you would realize its false. Stop believing in fairytales fed to you by mainstream media. People use the theory in order to gain grant monies and continue their careers. How do you think paleontologists get paid? Grants. Maybe you should look into that more instead of blindly following a lie based upon your faith.
You make your faith the lie because you want it to mean more then myth.
As I was saying It looks like you misunderstan evolution and I am thinking you probably have a simple minded conception of Christianity too.
It is you that wants to make fairytales true and ignore the data.

xcept
Banned
Banned
Posts: 145
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:22 pm

Post #935

Post by xcept »

Cathar1950 wrote:
xcept wrote:
Cathar1950 wrote:
xcept wrote:Your quote reveals who you are and what you stand for.

Nothing in evolution is proved true.

The fact that life can speciate doesn't prove they can jump from one species to another.
They don't jump from one species to another as they slowly change over time as a population. If you understood evolution you would know that and not make such statements that show a lack of understanding even the basics.
An individual doesn't evolve, populations evolve.
If you understood evolution, you would realize its false. Stop believing in fairytales fed to you by mainstream media. People use the theory in order to gain grant monies and continue their careers. How do you think paleontologists get paid? Grants. Maybe you should look into that more instead of blindly following a lie based upon your faith.
You make your faith the lie because you want it to mean more then myth.
As I was saying It looks like you misunderstan evolution and I am thinking you probably have a simple minded conception of Christianity too.
It is you that wants to make fairytales true and ignore the data.
Hey I noticed on your sidebar you've read the entire bible? When did you do that?
I don't see how anyone could read the entire Bible and miss the message given within it.
Maybe you can tell me this? Because I don't believe you have read it.

User avatar
Cathar1950
Site Supporter
Posts: 10503
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:12 pm
Location: Michigan(616)
Been thanked: 2 times

Post #936

Post by Cathar1950 »

xcept wrote:
Cathar1950 wrote:
xcept wrote:
Cathar1950 wrote:
xcept wrote:Your quote reveals who you are and what you stand for.

Nothing in evolution is proved true.

The fact that life can speciate doesn't prove they can jump from one species to another.
They don't jump from one species to another as they slowly change over time as a population. If you understood evolution you would know that and not make such statements that show a lack of understanding even the basics.
An individual doesn't evolve, populations evolve.
If you understood evolution, you would realize its false. Stop believing in fairytales fed to you by mainstream media. People use the theory in order to gain grant monies and continue their careers. How do you think paleontologists get paid? Grants. Maybe you should look into that more instead of blindly following a lie based upon your faith.
You make your faith the lie because you want it to mean more then myth.
As I was saying It looks like you misunderstan evolution and I am thinking you probably have a simple minded conception of Christianity too.
It is you that wants to make fairytales true and ignore the data.
Hey I noticed on your sidebar you've read the entire bible? When did you do that?
I don't see how anyone could read the entire Bible and miss the message given within it.
Maybe you can tell me this? Because I don't believe you have read it.
Obviously you will believe almost anything but when it comes to the Bible you have doubt about others while the Bible has many diverse messages yo seem to have some 19th century view as if there was just one message just for you.
I doubt if you have read the Bible with any comprehension and little understanding but I don't want to drag this thread down with your ignorance concerning both the Bible and evolution but if you want to take this up somewhere else.

User avatar
micatala
Site Supporter
Posts: 8338
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 2:04 pm
Has thanked: 1 time

Post #937

Post by micatala »

Moderator Warning
xcept wrote:
Cathar1950 wrote:
xcept wrote:
Cathar1950 wrote:
xcept wrote:Your quote reveals who you are and what you stand for.

Nothing in evolution is proved true.

The fact that life can speciate doesn't prove they can jump from one species to another.
They don't jump from one species to another as they slowly change over time as a population. If you understood evolution you would know that and not make such statements that show a lack of understanding even the basics.
An individual doesn't evolve, populations evolve.
If you understood evolution, you would realize its false. Stop believing in fairytales fed to you by mainstream media. People use the theory in order to gain grant monies and continue their careers. How do you think paleontologists get paid? Grants. Maybe you should look into that more instead of blindly following a lie based upon your faith.
You make your faith the lie because you want it to mean more then myth.
As I was saying It looks like you misunderstan evolution and I am thinking you probably have a simple minded conception of Christianity too.
It is you that wants to make fairytales true and ignore the data.
Hey I noticed on your sidebar you've read the entire bible? When did you do that?
I don't see how anyone could read the entire Bible and miss the message given within it.
Maybe you can tell me this? Because I don't believe you have read it.

Please consult the rules.

THis is really a form of personal attack, and is clearly not on topic. Keep the discussion to the questions for debate, not the other debaters.
" . . . the line separating good and evil passes, not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart . . . ." Alexander Solzhenitsyn

User avatar
nygreenguy
Guru
Posts: 2349
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 8:23 am
Location: Syracuse

Post #938

Post by nygreenguy »

xcept wrote: If you understood evolution, you would realize its false. Stop believing in fairytales fed to you by mainstream media. People use the theory in order to gain grant monies and continue their careers. How do you think paleontologists get paid? Grants. Maybe you should look into that more instead of blindly following a lie based upon your faith.
How is this any different than how religion operates? At least science has a system of checks and balances.

If its such obviously a fairytale, you should easily be able to refute it. So far all of your attacks have been seriously factually flawed, which forces us to question your actual understanding of evolution.

User avatar
Cathar1950
Site Supporter
Posts: 10503
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:12 pm
Location: Michigan(616)
Been thanked: 2 times

Post #939

Post by Cathar1950 »

greenguy wrote:
except wrote: If you understood evolution, you would realize its false. Stop believing in fairytales fed to you by mainstream media. People use the theory in order to gain grant monies and continue their careers. How do you think paleontologists get paid? Grants. Maybe you should look into that more instead of blindly following a lie based upon your faith.
How is this any different than how religion operates? At least science has a system of checks and balances.

If its such obviously a fairytale, you should easily be able to refute it. So far all of your attacks have been seriously factually flawed, which forces us to question your actual understanding of evolution.
This should be taken to another thread even if evolution does have something to say about the flood model. Such as the evolution and dispersion of species.

User avatar
McCulloch
Site Supporter
Posts: 24063
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 9:10 pm
Location: Toronto, ON, CA
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: A Deluge of Evidence for the Flood?

Post #940

Post by McCulloch »

LittlePig wrote:1) Does a Global Flood Model provide the best explanation for [...] biodiversity?
Let me go for some low lying fruit here. What does the Global Flood Model predict in terms of biodiversity? Not the prevalence of marsupial species in Australia certainly.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

Post Reply