Can Islam prove itself without discrediting the bible?

[Yolande]

I have heard many Islam people "proving" the Koran by trying to point out "so called" errors in the bible.
I read somewhere that Mohammed took the bible, made some changes, called himself a holy prophet, and used fear, bloodshed and intimidation, to get rid of opposition and to secure some kind of following.
He promised young men virgins in heaven to fight for him.
And he forced people to convert by brutal means.
When the men had to big of a problem with lust, they made the woman to wear veils.

And today they proudly proclaim themself to be the true religion because, as their argument states, christianity is not according to them.

I have never heard any Islam person defend their faith without referring to the bible.
Is there somebody here that can make a case for Islam in another way?

[Wyvern]

Now I;am coperating with you, and coming to a good conclusion, but stil youwant any thing related to the thread.

So before this time you were not cooperating?

So finaly I would say that Ive given enough true proofs, and you are not accepting any of it because of argument and because of un-neutral attitude.

So far you have given a total of two arguments that could be considered to be vaguely proof like. Both of these arguments you presented are logical fallacies and as such are invalid.

So till you find a good way, no moreproof will be given to you, as you have shown clearly here that you dont like to coperate.

I am very cooperative but if you can not come up with an argument that doesn't fail right out of the gate then how is that my fault or problem. You are the one that said he could prove islam is the one true religion and here we are still waiting for you to provide this wonderful proof.

[Cathar1950]

Yes, truth cannot be false, and dats what im trying to do, giving you the truth, but you are not accepting it,
You have to say whats wrong in this truth.

I have told you a number of times now what is wrong with your arguments. You are using fallacious arguments in an attempt to prove your claim. It isn't that I'm not accepting your arguments but that you have not come up with a valid argument. You are assuming that your religion is true but I see no reason to do so.

As we have to show Islam is true religion. so lets analyze the other religions with Islam
We will limit our debate to Abrahamic religions, and compare the difference with Islam, that how Islam can be true as per the other 2. is it ok with you Wyvern?

This is not a comparative religion thread and you have not shown islam to be the one true religion.

Now I;am cooperating with you, and coming to a good conclusion, but still you want any thing related to the thread.
So finally I would say that Ive given enough true proofs, and you are not accepting any of it because of argument and because of un-neutral attitude.
So till you find a good way, no more proof will be given to you, as you have shown clearly here that you dont like to coperate.

Doubt is justified and your "un-neutral" attitude towards your own beliefs are noted. You have fail to "enough true proofs", whatever that might mean, to anything and seem to lack an understanding of what proof actually is.
We are not accepting your " true proofs" because you are not clear to what you are trying to prove or how your posts are proof.
You are trying to preach. The only real issue you seem to address is when someone said the Koran was copied from the Bible. I agree and it isn't any more copied then "the Book of Mormon". But it was influenced by the Bible and the Jewish and Christian religions. It was also influenced by the issues and problem that Muhammad was going through and reflects his life and circumstances. It is like the Bible in it is a human writing created though human problems.

I think you havent been to entire thread to find out how many proofs I have given already. but if you want to discuss, we will discuss for sure, .
You said that Quran is copied and got influence from Jews and Christian tradition, (Torah and Bible).
So I would ask your proof for this. wats your evidence of this claim?

I never said the "Quran is copied and got influence from Jews and Christian", I said it was influenced by Jewish and Christian traditions.. Although someone else did make that statement, I disagree.
I have read through this thread a number of times. You only showed others opinions and claims and that is not the same as proof. None of it says anything about Islam being the one true religion. The Jewish and Christian religions have not fallen from the true knowledge, they evolved. There never was a falling away.

Given according to tradition even the Kabbalah honored Allah, along with other gods.

[TrueReligion]

Yes, truth cannot be false, and dats what im trying to do, giving you the truth, but you are not accepting it,
You have to say whats wrong in this truth.

I have told you a number of times now what is wrong with your arguments. You are using fallacious arguments in an attempt to prove your claim. It isn't that I'm not accepting your arguments but that you have not come up with a valid argument. You are assuming that your religion is true but I see no reason to do so.

As we have to show Islam is true religion. so lets analyze the other religions with Islam
We will limit our debate to Abrahamic religions, and compare the difference with Islam, that how Islam can be true as per the other 2. is it ok with you Wyvern?

This is not a comparative religion thread and you have not shown islam to be the one true religion.

Now I;am cooperating with you, and coming to a good conclusion, but still you want any thing related to the thread.
So finally I would say that Ive given enough true proofs, and you are not accepting any of it because of argument and because of un-neutral attitude.
So till you find a good way, no more proof will be given to you, as you have shown clearly here that you dont like to coperate.

Doubt is justified and your "un-neutral" attitude towards your own beliefs are noted. You have fail to "enough true proofs", whatever that might mean, to anything and seem to lack an understanding of what proof actually is.
We are not accepting your " true proofs" because you are not clear to what you are trying to prove or how your posts are proof.
You are trying to preach. The only real issue you seem to address is when someone said the Koran was copied from the Bible. I agree and it isn't any more copied then "the Book of Mormon". But it was influenced by the Bible and the Jewish and Christian religions. It was also influenced by the issues and problem that Muhammad was going through and reflects his life and circumstances. It is like the Bible in it is a human writing created though human problems.

I think you havent been to entire thread to find out how many proofs I have given already. but if you want to discuss, we will discuss for sure, .
You said that Quran is copied and got influence from Jews and Christian tradition, (Torah and Bible).
So I would ask your proof for this. wats your evidence of this claim?

I never said the "Quran is copied and got influence from Jews and Christian", I said it was influenced by Jewish and Christian traditions.. Although someone else did make that statement, I disagree.
I have read through this thread a number of times. You only showed others opinions and claims and that is not the same as proof. None of it says anything about Islam being the one true religion. The Jewish and Christian religions have not fallen from the true knowledge, they evolved. There never was a falling away.

Given according to tradition even the Kabbalah honored Allah, along with other gods.

What you mean Sir that it was influenced by Jewish and Christian traditions?

I gave one proposal, that I will take major 3 religions, and show accordingly how Islam is true as per the other 2, but you dont like this suggestion, so its like asking me to prove White, without mentioning name of any other color.

[Wyvern]

I gave one proposal, that I will take major 3 religions, and show accordingly how Islam is true as per the other 2, but you dont like this suggestion, so its like asking me to prove White, without mentioning name of any other color.

The OP states,"can islam prove itself without discrediting the bible?", and here you are now proposing to prove islam by discrediting both judaism and christianity. You made the claim you could prove the OP is true but here we are with you trying to change the terms of the discussion.

[TrueReligion]

[center]Islam is the only true Divine religion.[/center]

Though the followers of every religion say that their religion is the only true religion, but none
other than Muslims can prove it rationally.

Lets give some strong points in support of our belief that no one can disprove them on
valid grounds.

Muslims never claim that Islam is a new religion, but believe that it is the first and the oldest religion which was revealed to the first man and the first Prophet, Adam (as ) who arrived on the planet earth by the order of Allah Subhanahu taala.

Muslims believe in the basic teachings of Prophet Ibrahim (as), Prophet Musa (as), Prophet Isa (as) and assert that Prophet Muhammed was the last prophet of all prophets who testified and completed the Divine message. i.e. all prophets from Hazrat Adam (as) to Hazrat Muhammad (sws ) have the same basic beliefs.

The Holy Quran is the only Divine book which is present in its original form and has never been slightly changed or adulterated or corrupted in anyway. No other book claimed as Divine book is available in its original form or in the same language in which it was revealed.

Islam covers each and every aspect of human life and gives complete guidance in every field of human interest. It has complete code of perfect life. No other religion has such complete course of social laws.

The basic beliefs and social laws of Islam never collide with each other. Also, the basic beliefs and fundamental teachings of Islam and the established facts of science show compatibility with each other. This is not true with any other religion of the world.

Islam tells us very clearly, from where we have come, why we are here, and where we will ultimately go. Islam clearly defines the aim of our creation and the purpose of our life. All other religions do not answer these basic questions so clearly.

Islam is the only true monotheistic religion which teaches us to believe in the absolute oneness of God.
Christians claim that they believe in one God but they also believe in trinity, i.e. they say 1+1+1 =1 which is not correct. Similarly Hindus claim that they also believe in one God but they worship many gods.

[McCulloch]

Moderator Warning

Though the followers of every religion say that their religion is the only true religion, but none other than Muslims can prove it rationally.

Please review the Rules. 8. Extensive quotes from another source (particularly other websites) should state the source to avoid plagiarism.

This post appears to have been copied directly from

• Chapter - 4 Islam - The Only True Religion
• Basic Beliefs of Islam, for Secondary Schools, by Sayyed Qasim Mujtaba Moosavi Kamoonpuri, published by the Al-Muntazir Islamic Seminary, Dar Es Salaam OR
• IMAMIA SUNDAY SCHOOL (page 4)

In the future, please remember that when you copy large blocks of stuff from other places, include a link or a reference to where that stuff came from.

When the moderators feel the rules have been violated, a notice will frequently occur within the thread where the violation occurred, pointing out the violation and perhaps providing other moderator comments. Moderator warnings and comments are made publicly, within the thread, so that all members may see when and how the rules are being interpreted and enforced. However, note that any challenges or replies to moderator comments or warnings should be made via Private Message. This is so that threads do not get derailed into discussions about the rules.

[McCulloch]

Muslims never claim that Islam is a new religion, but believe that it is the first and the oldest religion which was revealed to the first man and the first Prophet, Adam (as ) who arrived on the planet earth by the order of Allah Subhanahu taala.

Is there any evidence that Islam existed prior to the revelations to Mohammad?

The Holy Quran is the only Divine book which is present in its original form and has never been slightly changed or adulterated or corrupted in anyway. No other book claimed as Divine book is available in its original form or in the same language in which it was revealed.

The Holy Qur'an is central to the Islamic faith, yet it was not concluded until 632 CE. How can that be the basis for a timeless universal religion?

The basic beliefs and social laws of Islam never collide with each other. Also, the basic beliefs and fundamental teachings of Islam and the established facts of science show compatibility with each other. This is not true with any other religion of the world.

As I understand it, the established facts of science do not contradict the teachings of Judaism.

Islam is the only true monotheistic religion which teaches us to believe in the absolute oneness of God.

Unitarianism and Judaism also teach the absolute oneness of God.

[TrueReligion]

Muslims never claim that Islam is a new religion, but believe that it is the first and the oldest religion which was revealed to the first man and the first Prophet, Adam (as ) who arrived on the planet earth by the order of Allah Subhanahu taala.

Is there any evidence that Islam existed prior to the revelations to Mohammad?

Islam means itself in arabic as "Submitting the will to 1 True God", and all the prophets came before, gave same teachings. So Islam is not a new religion.

The Holy Quran is the only Divine book which is present in its original form and has never been slightly changed or adulterated or corrupted in anyway. No other book claimed as Divine book is available in its original form or in the same language in which it was revealed.

The Holy Qur'an is central to the Islamic faith, yet it was not concluded until 632 CE. How can that be the basis for a timeless universal religion?

God send books at particular time, when too much evil and ignorance start in any society, God book to Moses, and afterwards to Jesus, yet the message is same, to avoid evil things, and worship 1 God, and after Jesus, Quran was revealed,with same message, and containing the same list of prophets. So its stil universal religious book.

The basic beliefs and social laws of Islam never collide with each other. Also, the basic beliefs and fundamental teachings of Islam and the established facts of science show compatibility with each other. This is not true with any other religion of the world.

As I understand it, the established facts of science do not contradict the teachings of Judaism.

Do you mean no contradiction with science in Judaism scripture? dont you consider Genesis, Deut, Levicticus and other 2 as books of Judaism in Bible? you dont know the errors in that related to science?

Islam is the only true monotheistic religion which teaches us to believe in the absolute oneness of God.

Unitarianism and Judaism also teach the absolute oneness of God.

Yes, But Unitarianism still believe in Jesus as son of God, and they dont believe on other prophets aswell
Further, they treat Bible as without any error, and other things as well. so you can;t their religion as a whole for the world.

Judaism, believe in 1 true God, but the teachings got little deviated from the teachings of God.

Lets Evaluate the remaining 2. (from source -> http://ireland.iol.ie/~afifi/BICNews/Sabeel/sabeel2.htm)

Derived Attributes of God
1. Absolutely One
2. Creator
3. Independent, Eternal
4. Formless and Timeless
5. Doesn't come down in physical form
6. Not made of parts
7. Is not begotten
8. Doesn't beget
9. All Powerful
10. All knowing.

Down to Two Religions...
Of the pure monotheistic religions, only two fully recognize the above attributes of God. Judaism and Islam.

Self-Evident Assumptions
1) A Perfect Being doesn't contradict
2) An All-Moral Being doesn't deceive or confuse us.
3) A Perfect Guide, guides us with Clear 'Signs".

Conclusions
a) A true religion must recognize all the above attributes of God

b) Two religions that possess all the above attributes of God can't have contradictions between them. If they contradict, then one or both can't be true. See # 1, and #2

c) A true religion must possess a clear cut distinguishing feature. see #3

Criteria of a Miraculous Feature

1. If this feature (miracle) is produced by God, then none among the creation can match (equal) it.
2. Even the smallest portion of this miracle can't be matched.
3. This miracle should come down to us in an unaltered, pure form.
4. This miracle should be available to us to examine.

Judaism Examined
Miracles related in the Old Testament can't be witnessed by us now, to test or match them.

a) The oldest complete written copy of the old Testament is only from 900 AC (After Christ).[8]
The complete Old Testament hasn't been memorized in successive generations and hasn't reached us in that form.
Therefore doesn't satisfy criteria #3 and #4

b) If the miracles happened in the distant past and those records haven't comedown to us (from the time of the event to our time) in a pure and unaltered form, how can we be certain that they actually happened? Therefore neither the Old Testament or its miracles satisfies the above criteria.

Islam Examined
Islam proclaims the Quran, the revelation given to Prophet Muhammad (P), as that miracle.

A) The complete Quran was memorized since its inception and this method was maintained in successive generations by millions to our present time in an unaltered and pure form. Muslims recite the Quran from memory in their five daily prayers. Satisfies Criteria #3.

B) At least two written copies from initial times are preserved to our day.[9]
Therefore satisfies criteria #3.

C) Quran as revealed in Arabic is available in an unaltered and pure form in our hands for examination. Satisfies Criteria #4

D) God challenges any doubters to produce a book as perfect as the Arabic Quran.[10]
This challenge is open to all, and for all times. Satisfies criteria #1

E) God challenges the unbelievers to match even a single chapter of the Arabic Quran.[11] Satisfies criteria #2



Conclusion
The best gift of God to us is our mind. Using which, we have successfully proven that the universe had a beginning and the cause of it was God. This God is One, Omniscient, Omnipotent, independent, doesn't beget and the rest of the attributes. Furthermore it was proven that out of the maze of hundreds of religions, only Islam fully satisfied all the derived attributes of God and posses a testable unique and unalterable miracle, which is a complete guidebook for all Humankind. Quran, along with the example of Prophet Muhammad (P), provides solutions to problems plaguing the world.

References

8. Jimmy Williams, President of Probe Ministries International, "Are the Bible Documents Reliable", pg 2 (www.leaderu.com)

9. Abdur-Raheem Green "On the Inimitability and Authenticity of the Quran" pg. 1 (www.debate.domini.org/rws/green02.html)

10. Quran: Chapter 17, verse 88

11. Quran: Chapter 2, verse 23

[McCulloch]

Is there any evidence that Islam existed prior to the revelations to Mohammad?

Islam means itself in arabic as "Submitting the will to 1 True God", and all the prophets came before, gave same teachings. So Islam is not a new religion.

Is there any evidence that what you are calling Islam is the same as the religion practiced by any people prior to the revelations given to Mohammad?

The Holy Quran is the only Divine book which is present in its original form and has never been slightly changed or adulterated or corrupted in anyway. No other book claimed as Divine book is available in its original form or in the same language in which it was revealed.

The Holy Qur'an is central to the Islamic faith, yet it was not concluded until 632 CE. How can that be the basis for a timeless universal religion?

God send books at particular time, when too much evil and ignorance start in any society, God book to Moses, and afterwards to Jesus, yet the message is same, to avoid evil things, and worship 1 God, and after Jesus, Quran was revealed,with same message, and containing the same list of prophets. So its stil universal religious book.

Here is a common failing with all religions based on progressive revelation. Their apologetics invariably come in the form, "God, long ago revealed A, then revealed B but finally revealed C." No convincing answer is given as to why A and B were inadequate and why God stopped at C.
For Christianity, A and B are the Old Testament and C is the New Testament.
For Islam, A and B are the Old Testament and the New Testament and C is the Qur'an.
For Mormonism, A and B are the Old Testament and the New Testament and C is the Book of Mormon.
So, why did God fail to get his message across in the past? In what way does the latest revelation from God avoid the failings of the past divine messages? Why isn't there anything new or further from God? Why didn't God just get it right the first time?

As I understand it, the established facts of science do not contradict the teachings of Judaism.

Do you mean no contradiction with science in Judaism scripture? dont you consider Genesis, Deut, Levicticus and other 2 as books of Judaism in Bible? you dont know the errors in that related to science?

No, I mean that there is no contradiction between the Jewish religion and what is known about science. Jews typically read their scriptures as allegories and parables, not as literal scientific truth.

Islam is the only true monotheistic religion which teaches us to believe in the absolute oneness of God.

Unitarianism and Judaism also teach the absolute oneness of God.

Yes, But Unitarianism still believe in Jesus as son of God, and they dont believe on other prophets aswell

No, Unitarianism adheres to strict monotheism, they maintain that Jesus was a great man and a prophet of God, perhaps even a supernatural being, but not God himself. They believe Jesus did not claim to be God, nor did his teachings even hint at the existence of a triune God. Unitarians believe in the moral authority, but not the divinity, of Jesus. They do not believe that Jesus was the son of God any more than Adam or David could be called a son of God. They believe as it is said in the New Testament:

For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Further, they [unitarians] treat Bible as without any error, and other things as well. so you can;t their religion as a whole for the world.

No they do not. Their view of the Bible is typically quite liberal. They believe that, though the authors of the Bible were inspired by God, they were humans and therefore subject to human error. They are more likely than other Christians to refer to non-canonical books.

Judaism, believe in 1 true God, but the teachings got little deviated from the teachings of God.

That is your opinion on the matter. However, it appears as if you are now retracting your original statement.

Islam is the only true monotheistic religion which teaches us to believe in the absolute oneness of God.

Emphasis added.

Their view might be the exact reverse. Islam believes in one true God, but their teachings have deviated from the original teachings from that God.

The best gift of God to us is our mind. Using which, we have successfully proven that the universe had a beginning and the cause of it was God.

You are jumping the gun on this one. The universe had a beginning, however the cause of the universe, if it had a cause, is unknown.

This God is One, Omniscient, Omnipotent, independent, doesn't beget and the rest of the attributes.

It has not been proven that God has those attributes. Nor has it been proven that it is possible for an entity to simultaneously have all of those attributes.

[Cathar1950]

Yes, truth cannot be false, and dats what im trying to do, giving you the truth, but you are not accepting it,
You have to say whats wrong in this truth.

I have told you a number of times now what is wrong with your arguments. You are using fallacious arguments in an attempt to prove your claim. It isn't that I'm not accepting your arguments but that you have not come up with a valid argument. You are assuming that your religion is true but I see no reason to do so.

As we have to show Islam is true religion. so lets analyze the other religions with Islam
We will limit our debate to Abrahamic religions, and compare the difference with Islam, that how Islam can be true as per the other 2. is it ok with you Wyvern?

This is not a comparative religion thread and you have not shown islam to be the one true religion.

Now I;am cooperating with you, and coming to a good conclusion, but still you want any thing related to the thread.
So finally I would say that Ive given enough true proofs, and you are not accepting any of it because of argument and because of un-neutral attitude.
So till you find a good way, no more proof will be given to you, as you have shown clearly here that you dont like to coperate.

Doubt is justified and your "un-neutral" attitude towards your own beliefs are noted. You have fail to "enough true proofs", whatever that might mean, to anything and seem to lack an understanding of what proof actually is.
We are not accepting your " true proofs" because you are not clear to what you are trying to prove or how your posts are proof.
You are trying to preach. The only real issue you seem to address is when someone said the Koran was copied from the Bible. I agree and it isn't any more copied then "the Book of Mormon". But it was influenced by the Bible and the Jewish and Christian religions. It was also influenced by the issues and problem that Muhammad was going through and reflects his life and circumstances. It is like the Bible in it is a human writing created though human problems.

I think you havent been to entire thread to find out how many proofs I have given already. but if you want to discuss, we will discuss for sure, .
You said that Quran is copied and got influence from Jews and Christian tradition, (Torah and Bible).
So I would ask your proof for this. wats your evidence of this claim?

I never said the "Quran is copied and got influence from Jews and Christian", I said it was influenced by Jewish and Christian traditions.. Although someone else did make that statement, I disagree.
I have read through this thread a number of times. You only showed others opinions and claims and that is not the same as proof. None of it says anything about Islam being the one true religion. The Jewish and Christian religions have not fallen from the true knowledge, they evolved. There never was a falling away.

Given according to tradition even the Kabbalah honored Allah, along with other gods.

What you mean Sir that it was influenced by Jewish and Christian traditions?

I gave one proposal, that I will take major 3 religions, and show accordingly how Islam is true as per the other 2, but you dont like this suggestion, so its like asking me to prove White, without mentioning name of any other color.

Here you are saying the OP is correct when you say " like asking me to prove White, without mentioning name of any other color". Then you not only agree with the OP but then you go on to say you can prove by discrediting the other two Abraham religions: "I will take major 3 religions, and show accordingly how Islam is true as per the other 2".
I never once I didn't like the idea or "suggestion".
What do you think I mean by: "it was influenced by Jewish and Christian traditions?"

I also question that you can prove you are more "true" and find the idea laughable, as if any of the other could or should. You are playing the Bible Believer game. There is no true original religion and Adam and even Abraham are largely mythical inventions or creations that may or may not have represented some presumed ancestor of some tribe or tribes in the first century when these stories began. For all we know they may have been organized and edited by Ezra material that might have just been entertainment or idealized propaganda. We can find similar stories going back a thousand years before and the stories written are idealized histories.

Genesis 19:37 The first-born bore a son, and called his name Moab; he is the father of the Moabites to this day. 38 The younger also bore a son, and called his name Ben-ammi; he is the father of the Ammonites to this day.

Do you really think that the Amorites and the Moabites were the children of and incestuous act? This is propaganda and it made sense when you realize this was probably edited or written during the expansions of Josiah. Just like the part about the Ishmaelites
Being the children of a slave. Your battle best be fought with other Bible Believers as most Jews dont take this stuff literally and grew out of such superstitions as the ones you are trying to present. The nice part is the returning Jews under Cyrus wrote good stuff about their neighbors under the Lords Anointed Cyrus the Great. I can see where The Mohammad might have been illiterate and might have profited from having more material available besides his mother-in-law and Christians he must have meet, including Ebonite groups and others sectarian Jews, after all the Christians had not got rid of a lot of the Heretics yet. It was early.

So prove away, it should be entertaining.