Ends and means

[bernee51]

From the accounts in the gospels, the torture and execution of the man known as Jesus of Nazareth was a hoorendous and barbaric act carried out for reasons contrived by the power structures at the time.

Without this act, however, the salvation claimed by christians would not have occured.

By these brutal acts those who believe benefit through 'eternal life'.

Was this act evil?

Is it a case of the means being justified by the ends?

[Goat]

Angel On the grounds of common sense. The Psalm was written long before the event. The event is documented. While on the cross Jesus was teaching....even in His agony, He was teaching us. He never referred to His Father as "God" while He walked the earth in flesh. Yet while on the cross He said....

Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken Me?

He was quoting the Psalm that foretold His crucifixion....

Psalm 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

Just to clarify (because this seems like lone thing which we can debate), it is quite possible, and many including me would argue likely, that either Jesus was quoting the passage because as a semi-educated Jew he would have been more than familiar with the Psalms, or the words were attributed to Jesus in order to lend validity to the crucifixion narrative by rooting it in older Jewish tradition.

There are quite a few other textual criticisms to be made against the claim that it refers to Jesus, not the least of them being that Jesus' bones were not "out of joint" as is claimed in Psalms 22:14, and of course there is the mistranslation of 22:16.

Also, there is a clear definition of when prophesizing is occurring (such as in Isaiah), and we simply do not have that in this passage. The Psalms were devotional songs, not prophecy.

So before you claim this to be "true", understand the criteria for "truth."[/i]

I would also say that Psalm 22 has nothing to do with Jesus, but rather is talking about the feelings of despair that King David. It includes words that are purposely mistranslated by the KJV to make it appear to be a prophecy , but it isn't.

[whirlwind]

So, before you claim the prophecy to not be prophetic....understand some are given to see Truth and others are not.

Some will see truth and others will not. How do we determine that you are the one who sees truth?

Hi McCulloch....It is good to see you again.

I am reminded of the ancient myth of Cassandra. She was the daughter of King Priam and Queen Hecuba of Troy. Her beauty caused Apollo to grant her the gift of prophecy. However, when she did not return his love, Apollo placed a curse on her so that no one would ever believe her predictions. Apollo's cursed gift became a source of endless pain and frustration. Cassandra warned the Trojans about the Trojan Horse, the death of Agamemnon, and her own demise. Yet she was unable to do anything to forestall these tragedies since no one believed her.

You appear to be cursed in the same way by your God. You have a message from this God, yet you are unable to demonstrate to us that the message is legitimate.

Either that or the whole thing is a bunch of hokum.

A curse? At times it is a joy and other times it does seem, well not a curse but very sad. To see truth, see it written in His Word and yet....have others not accept it is difficult. Especially when some that I speak to seem to be such good people. A friend told me, "when I first saw the Light I wanted to go out and save the world but then I realized...the world doesn't want to be saved." He's right. So, I try not to be discouraged...I certainly don't feel cursed and was warned beforehand.....


John 16:1-3 These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended. They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor Me.

Even those professing to believe, those in churches, on forums, etc. will do away with you by not listening, not believing. In essence, that is the killing that is done...not physical death.

It's not a "bunch of hokum." No one knows "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth," yet...but we're working on it.

[whirlwind]

From Post 49:

Joey, it isn't your present life I'm speaking of.

I challenge you to present verifiable, confirmable, 'non-circular-logical' evidence to show you speak truth.

Joey, we have different viewpoints on what circular logic is.

What about verifiable, confirmable?

Do you not agree that referencing the book making the claims is circular logic?

To me His Word is the only verifiable and confirmable reference. I understand that it isn't to you but why would I ever go to a man and his ideas to explain what God Himself tells us? That is totally illogical to me.

I would love to answer your questions with truth.

I'd prefer that to lies.

That was a good one....

I sense "I'd love to but I can't".

The "I can't" isn't that I can't because I don't have the truth but because I can't use the truth to tell you.

When you are ready to discuss what is written, if I'm still here, we can discuss the answers He gives.

Any chance of discussing the evidence for your claims?

I seldom go to Holy Huddle because I believe less of the Bible, and less of many of its proponents, than I do politicians.

I debate here in C&A to show many theists claims can't be shown to be true, to point out the errors in logic (such as I'm aware of), as well as to show the lengths some theists will go to in order to dodge responsibility for their claims. I consider religion one of the biggest and worst frauds perpetrated in the history of humankind, and feel it's my moral responsibility to call out such wherever I find it.

And, I agree with you! I don't go to "Holy Huddle" because I'm not called to. I too believe religion is a fraud and it is my moral responsibility to stop false religion in any way I can. It is also my moral responsibility to allow His Spirit to speak through me so others can be awakened and to not allow folks to lump the Creator in with man's religion. He warns about false prophets quite often.

[Munchskreem]

So, before you claim the prophecy to not be prophetic....understand some are given to see Truth and others are not.

Some will see truth and others will not. How do we determine that you are the one who sees truth?

Hi McCulloch....It is good to see you again.

I am reminded of the ancient myth of Cassandra. She was the daughter of King Priam and Queen Hecuba of Troy. Her beauty caused Apollo to grant her the gift of prophecy. However, when she did not return his love, Apollo placed a curse on her so that no one would ever believe her predictions. Apollo's cursed gift became a source of endless pain and frustration. Cassandra warned the Trojans about the Trojan Horse, the death of Agamemnon, and her own demise. Yet she was unable to do anything to forestall these tragedies since no one believed her.

You appear to be cursed in the same way by your God. You have a message from this God, yet you are unable to demonstrate to us that the message is legitimate.

Either that or the whole thing is a bunch of hokum.

A curse? At times it is a joy and other times it does seem, well not a curse but very sad. To see truth, see it written in His Word and yet....have others not accept it is difficult. Especially when some that I speak to seem to be such good people. A friend told me, "when I first saw the Light I wanted to go out and save the world but then I realized...the world doesn't want to be saved." He's right. So, I try not to be discouraged...I certainly don't feel cursed and was warned beforehand.....


John 16:1-3 These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended. They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor Me.

Even those professing to believe, those in churches, on forums, etc. will do away with you by not listening, not believing. In essence, that is the killing that is done...not physical death.

It's not a "bunch of hokum." No one knows "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth," yet...but we're working on it.

There's nothing saying that you can't be just as passionate about your beliefs whilst addressing arguments on their own merits instead of citing Bible passages. Theology is a self-contained realm which presupposes certain scientific, historical, and philosophical conclusions which we do not share. If you want to speak to people in a convincing way, use the appropriate language.

As much as I dislike the more political strains of fundamentalism and as much as I disagree with the premise suggested by the title, Francis Schaeffer has an excellent speech addressing this issue called, "Christianity is Truth Rather than Religion" where he explains why people are confused by many conservative Christians. The simple answer is: They refuse to engage people on their own terms, even if it will not infringe upon their own spiritual practice.

I have seen far too many Christians who consider themselves so above and beyond others spiritually that they can not communicate with them.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 63:

Joey, we have different viewpoints on what circular logic is.

What about verifiable, confirmable?
Do you not agree that referencing the book making the claims is circular logic?

To me His Word is the only verifiable and confirmable reference. I understand that it isn't to you but why would I ever go to a man and his ideas to explain what God Himself tells us? That is totally illogical to me.

Yet you have no problem using a book written, produced, distributed, and "interpreted" by humans to support claims written by humans, as well as claims you present.

You initially claimed, way back in Post 18:

You misunderstand. When things of God are taken away then....there is nothing else. Nothing lasting, nothing real, nothing of value. Life has no meaning without God. It is all vanity.

And in all my efforts to get you to show you speak truth (or to honorably retract), all you've done is attempt to explain away why you can't show you speak truth.

I would love to answer your questions with truth.

...
I sense "I'd love to but I can't".

The "I can't" isn't that I can't because I don't have the truth but because I can't use the truth to tell you.

Do you here contend forum rules prevent the presentation of truth?

>Snip more claims I fear will only further off-track the discussion<

[whirlwind]

From Post 63:

Joey, we have different viewpoints on what circular logic is.

What about verifiable, confirmable?
Do you not agree that referencing the book making the claims is circular logic?

To me His Word is the only verifiable and confirmable reference. I understand that it isn't to you but why would I ever go to a man and his ideas to explain what God Himself tells us? That is totally illogical to me.

Yet you have no problem using a book written, produced, distributed, and "interpreted" by humans to support claims written by humans, as well as claims you present.

The problem would arise if I didn't use His Book.

You initially claimed, way back in Post 18:

You misunderstand. When things of God are taken away then....there is nothing else. Nothing lasting, nothing real, nothing of value. Life has no meaning without God. It is all vanity.

And in all my efforts to get you to show you speak truth (or to honorably retract), all you've done is attempt to explain away why you can't show you speak truth.

I cannot retract truth. This present life is vanity. It isn't our goal. He gives us wonderful blessings and we are to enjoy them in this life but none of them go with us. Not our homes, our cars, our financial wealth, our wonderful restaurants, our entertainment, our jobs...All is vanity, fleeting vanity. That is truth.

Do you here contend forum rules prevent the presentation of truth?

I do indeed. As truth is His Word and His Word is not to be quoted then I am prevented from presenting truth as written. I can tell you what I believe they mean but that carries no more validity than what some fellow in Arkansas might say. You ask for proof. It is there. You ask for verification. It is there. You ask for truth. It is truth.

[Clownboat]

How does recognizing the previous age put "death, disease, and suffering before the fall?

Adam's sin brought death, disease, and suffering into the universe according to the Bible.
There was death, disease, and suffering before Adam according to reality. Therefore the gap theory cannot be true. I am confident that you will interpret scripture how you see fit to make it say what you like.

From Romans 5:12, “Therefore, even as through one man [Adam] sin entered the world, and death by sin, and so death passed on all men inasmuch as have sinned,� we understand that there could not have been human sin or death before Adam. The Bible teaches (1 Corinthians 15) that Adam was the first man, and as a result of his rebellion (sin), death and corruption (disease, bloodshed, and suffering) entered the universe. Before Adam sinned there could not have been any (nephesh[2]) animal or human death. Note also that there could not have been a race of men before Adam that died in “Lucifer's flood� because 1 Corinthians 15:45 tells us that Adam was the “first� man.

Adam wasn't the first man on earth.

According to the Bible you are wrong. (And a false prophet)?

Genesis 1:29-30 teaches us that the animals and man were originally created vegetarian. This is consistent with God's description of the creation as “very good.� How could a fossil record which gives evidence of disease, violence, death, and decay (fossils have been found of animals apparently fighting and certainly eating each other) be described as “very good�? Thus, the death of billions of animals (and many humans) as seen in the fossil record must have occurred after Adam's sin.

The dinosaurs were not part of this age. They were destroyed in the first age.

If that were true, then there was death, disease, and suffering before there was death, disease and suffering. Also, that would mean T-Rex and others like him would have been vegetarians.

Faith doesn't blind.

Yes it does, I site you as an example to the readers. I was once just like you remember, "gap theory" and all. I WAS blinded by my faith. I do not claim that said faith is wrong, since I am open to belief, but I need more than opinions of people that I do not know and could be used as a tool of Satan.

[Cathar1950]

Angel On the grounds of common sense. The Psalm was written long before the event. The event is documented. While on the cross Jesus was teaching....even in His agony, He was teaching us. He never referred to His Father as "God" while He walked the earth in flesh. Yet while on the cross He said....

Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken Me?

He was quoting the Psalm that foretold His crucifixion....

Psalm 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

Just to clarify (because this seems like lone thing which we can debate), it is quite possible, and many including me would argue likely, that either Jesus was quoting the passage because as a semi-educated Jew he would have been more than familiar with the Psalms, or the words were attributed to Jesus in order to lend validity to the crucifixion narrative by rooting it in older Jewish tradition.

There are quite a few other textual criticisms to be made against the claim that it refers to Jesus, not the least of them being that Jesus' bones were not "out of joint" as is claimed in Psalms 22:14, and of course there is the mistranslation of 22:16.

Also, there is a clear definition of when prophesizing is occurring (such as in Isaiah), and we simply do not have that in this passage. The Psalms were devotional songs, not prophecy.

So before you claim this to be "true", understand the criteria for "truth."[/i]

I would also say that Psalm 22 has nothing to do with Jesus, but rather is talking about the feelings of despair that King David. It includes words that are purposely mistranslated by the KJV to make it appear to be a prophecy , but it isn't.

I would go even further and say it is more likely the source of the Christian passion tradition either received by the author of Mark or invented as it wasn't a prophesy until the Christian myth.
It is interesting how Paul seems to be unaware of the use of Psalm 22 and the suffering servant tradition and like much of the sacrificial passages in the LXX which should have come in handy with his supposed teachings and later reflections in the gospels.

[whirlwind]

How does recognizing the previous age put "death, disease, and suffering before the fall?

Adam's sin brought death, disease, and suffering into the universe according to the Bible.

Where is that written?

There was death, disease, and suffering before Adam according to reality. Therefore the gap theory cannot be true. I am confident that you will interpret scripture how you see fit to make it say what you like.

From Romans 5:12, “Therefore, even as through one man [Adam] sin entered the world, and death by sin, and so death passed on all men inasmuch as have sinned,� we understand that there could not have been human sin or death before Adam. The Bible teaches (1 Corinthians 15) that Adam was the first man, and as a result of his rebellion (sin), death and corruption (disease, bloodshed, and suffering) entered the universe. Before Adam sinned there could not have been any (nephesh[2]) animal or human death. Note also that there could not have been a race of men before Adam that died in “Lucifer's flood� because 1 Corinthians 15:45 tells us that Adam was the “first� man.

Adam wasn't the first man on earth.

According to the Bible you are wrong. (And a false prophet)?

The Bible tells us of man before Adam...it is written. Adam was the first man in the line to Christ.

Genesis 1:29-30 teaches us that the animals and man were originally created vegetarian. This is consistent with God's description of the creation as “very good.� How could a fossil record which gives evidence of disease, violence, death, and decay (fossils have been found of animals apparently fighting and certainly eating each other) be described as “very good�? Thus, the death of billions of animals (and many humans) as seen in the fossil record must have occurred after Adam's sin.

The dinosaurs were not part of this age. They were destroyed in the first age.

If that were true, then there was death, disease, and suffering before there was death, disease and suffering. Also, that would mean T-Rex and others like him would have been vegetarians.

I don't understand the connection you're making. God created carnivores as well as plant eaters. Everything living dies.

Faith doesn't blind.

Yes it does, I site you as an example to the readers. I was once just like you remember, "gap theory" and all. I WAS blinded by my faith. I do not claim that said faith is wrong, since I am open to belief, but I need more than opinions of people that I do not know and could be used as a tool of Satan.

Fair enough. Pick His Book up and read.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 66:

Yet you have no problem using a book written, produced, distributed, and "interpreted" by humans to support claims written by humans, as well as claims you present.

The problem would arise if I didn't use His Book.

That's my point, where you previously stated:

I understand that it isn't to you but why would I ever go to a man and his ideas to explain what God Himself tells us? That is totally illogical to me.

Seems you and logic need to meet.

And in all my efforts to get you to show you speak truth (or to honorably retract), all you've done is attempt to explain away why you can't show you speak truth.

I cannot retract truth...

Retract it?

I've yet to see you present it.

I cannot retract truth. This present life is vanity. It isn't our goal. He gives us wonderful blessings and we are to enjoy them in this life but none of them go with us. Not our homes, our cars, our financial wealth, our wonderful restaurants, our entertainment, our jobs...All is vanity, fleeting vanity. That is truth.

Can you offer some means to confirm you speak truth regarding:

1- God exists (for thoroughness).
2- This god gives us anything.
3- Your personal opinion regarding what constitutes "vanity" is valid for all.

Your continued attempts at preaching have been met with some sanctions, so I'd use caution with a response here.

Do you here contend forum rules prevent the presentation of truth?

I do indeed...

Please cite the rule, or have the honor to retract this scurilous accusation.

I've presented this argument of yours for debate here.

As truth is His Word and His Word is not to be quoted then I am prevented from presenting truth as written.

Quoting it is acceptable.

Supporting it with logic, reason, or real world evidence is where you have difficulty.

I can tell you what I believe they mean but that carries no more validity than what some fellow in Arkansas might say.

The problem lies in stating your belief as fact, or as "truth", not one's geographical location.

You ask for proof. It is there. You ask for verification. It is there. You ask for truth. It is truth.

You just fail to offer any of it, and blame your failure on a site rule that doesn't exist.

Kinda goofy to agree to rules and then blame nonexistent rules for one's own failure.

I for one am quite put off by repeated attempts by some theists to declare "truth", and then spend the next dozen posts explaining why they can't show they speak it.