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Trinity
The mystery of the Holy Trinity
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Artiom8010
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 Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 7:58 am Post subject: Trinity |
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Why Catholic Church say that The mystery of the Holy Trinity not impossibility to unravel. But I read one newspaper and found one internetsite where one man spoke that God is a Thought. Holy Spirit is Thinking. Christ is a Word or Action. Christ is a ultimate goal of contempliation of a thought. I think that is true.
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myth-one.com Guru Joined: 09 Aug 2006 Total posts: 1220 Gender: Undisclosed
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Post 51:
Mon Jul 26, 2010 9:49 am Post subject: |
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| Katzpur wrote: | | People are always trying to ignore the straightforward meaning of what the scriptures say with respect to who God is. Genesis describes the creation of the world and of all of the different forms of life that God placed here. It is speaking specifically of the physical creation of the earth. It says that God made "the beast of the earthafter his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind." The very next verse continues, saying that He said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." To me, that is clearly stating that man looks like God and that God has the form of a man. I have never been able to figure out why people are so insistent that this means something else. |
Here’s a few reasons:
| Quote: | | For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20) |
The Bible describes two types of beings, physical and spiritual, and each of these body types requires a different birth:
| Quote: | There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (I Corinthians 15:44)
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6) |
These two body types are different:
| Quote: | | … the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. (I Corinthians 15:40) |
Mankind cannot enter the Kingdom of God as created:
| Quote: | | And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; (I Corinthians 15:49-50) |
Here is a description of spiritual bodies:
| Quote: | | The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (John 3:8) |
Does that describe man?
Although created in God’s image, mankind was made a little lower than the angels:
| Quote: | | What is man, that thou art mindful of him? ...For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, (Psalm 8:4-5) |
In fact, man was created originally with only two differences between him and the angels! These two differences are body type and knowledge of good and evil. Trees in the Garden of Eden represented each of these differences: The Tree of Knowledge and the Tree of life.
When Adam and Eve ate the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge mankind became closer to being gods as we recognized good and evil. At this point there is only one difference remaining between man and the angels. That difference is body type – physical versus spiritual.
Adam and Eve were ejected from the Garden of Eden to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and becoming Gods:
| Quote: | | And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. (Genesis 3:22-23) |
Jesus was the spiritual Son of God prior to His physical life on earth. As such, He could not die for our sins. Bummer! What to do? He temporarily became a human:
| Quote: | | But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Hebrews 2:9) |
Jesus Christ was made to be "a little lower than the angels," exactly as man was created!
| Quote: | | What is man, that thou art mindful of him? ...For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, (Psalm 8:4-5) |
Both Jesus Christ and man were made "a little lower than the angels." However, we are given the one, and only one, reason that Jesus was made lower than the angels for His thirty-three years on earth. He could not die as a spirit! He was made lower than the angels so that he could suffer death! That was the only change required for Him to become a human being! His spiritual body could not die as it is immortal. He had to become a physical human body so that He could die for our sins. It will always be a mystery to man as to how this was accomplished. That is, where was His spiritual body while He was on the earth? We will not understand this until we become members of the Kingdom of God. Regardless of how it was accomplished, the only change required for Jesus to become a human was a body type change from spiritual to physical.
Conversely, the only remaining difference between humans and Jesus and the angels is a physical body versus a spiritual body.
We must be born again as spirits to enter the Kingdom of God. |
_________________
Christian Filicide?: All The Dead Innocent Children
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Post 52:
Mon Jul 26, 2010 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| myth-one.com wrote: | | Katzpur wrote: | | People are always trying to ignore the straightforward meaning of what the scriptures say with respect to who God is. Genesis describes the creation of the world and of all of the different forms of life that God placed here. It is speaking specifically of the physical creation of the earth. It says that God made "the beast of the earthafter his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind." The very next verse continues, saying that He said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." To me, that is clearly stating that man looks like God and that God has the form of a man. I have never been able to figure out why people are so insistent that this means something else. |
Here’s a few reasons:
| Quote: | | For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20) |
The Bible describes two types of beings, physical and spiritual, and each of these body types requires a different birth:
| Quote: | There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (I Corinthians 15:44)
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6) |
These two body types are different:
| Quote: | | … the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. (I Corinthians 15:40) |
Mankind cannot enter the Kingdom of God as created:
| Quote: | | And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; (I Corinthians 15:49-50) |
Here is a description of spiritual bodies:
| Quote: | | The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (John 3:8) |
Does that describe man?
Although created in God’s image, mankind was made a little lower than the angels:
| Quote: | | What is man, that thou art mindful of him? ...For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, (Psalm 8:4-5) |
In fact, man was created originally with only two differences between him and the angels! These two differences are body type and knowledge of good and evil. Trees in the Garden of Eden represented each of these differences: The Tree of Knowledge and the Tree of life.
When Adam and Eve ate the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge mankind became closer to being gods as we recognized good and evil. At this point there is only one difference remaining between man and the angels. That difference is body type – physical versus spiritual.
Adam and Eve were ejected from the Garden of Eden to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and becoming Gods:
| Quote: | | And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. (Genesis 3:22-23) |
Jesus was the spiritual Son of God prior to His physical life on earth. As such, He could not die for our sins. Bummer! What to do? He temporarily became a human:
| Quote: | | But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Hebrews 2:9) |
Jesus Christ was made to be "a little lower than the angels," exactly as man was created!
| Quote: | | What is man, that thou art mindful of him? ...For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, (Psalm 8:4-5) |
Both Jesus Christ and man were made "a little lower than the angels." However, we are given the one, and only one, reason that Jesus was made lower than the angels for His thirty-three years on earth. He could not die as a spirit! He was made lower than the angels so that he could suffer death! That was the only change required for Him to become a human being! His spiritual body could not die as it is immortal. He had to become a physical human body so that He could die for our sins. It will always be a mystery to man as to how this was accomplished. That is, where was His spiritual body while He was on the earth? We will not understand this until we become members of the Kingdom of God. Regardless of how it was accomplished, the only change required for Jesus to become a human was a body type change from spiritual to physical.
Conversely, the only remaining difference between humans and Jesus and the angels is a physical body versus a spiritual body.
We must be born again as spirits to enter the Kingdom of God. |
I'm sorry. You may have thought you responded to the question I raised, but I sure couldn't find anything in your answer that seemed relevant to it. |
_________________
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." ~Rudyard Kipling ~ |
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Post 53:
Mon Jul 26, 2010 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Katzpur wrote: | | I'm sorry. You may have thought you responded to the question I raised, but I sure couldn't find anything in your answer that seemed relevant to it. |
| Prior to that, Katzpur wrote: | | "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." To me, that is clearly stating that man looks like God and that God has the form of a man. I have never been able to figure out why people are so insistent that this means something else. |
I offered Bible verses which might lead people to believe that God does not have the form of a man -- as you claim:
| Quote: | | For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20) |
If man has no preeminence over the other beasts, and God has the form of a man, does God have preeminence over the other beasts?
| Quote: | | And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; (I Corinthians 15:49-50) |
If mankind cannot enter the Kingdom of God in his present form, and God has the same form, God cannot be there either!
| Quote: | | The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (John 3:8) |
This describes spiritual forms like God! Does it describe man?
Although created in God’s image, mankind was made a little lower than the angels:
| Quote: | | What is man, that thou art mindful of him? ...For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, (Psalm 8:4-5) |
If man is lower that the angels, and man and God are the same form, then God is also lower than the angels!
Adam and Eve were ejected from the Garden of Eden to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and becoming Gods:
| Quote: | | And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. (Genesis 3:22-23) |
Obviously not the same form here, man is mortal, while God lives forever.
======================================
You claimed that "God has the form of a man," and wondered why people are so insistent that ""Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" means something different from man having the same form as God.
Do you still think that I did not respond to your question?
Now can you "figure out why people are so insistent that this means something else?" |
_________________
Christian Filicide?: All The Dead Innocent Children
Short Article: The Blame Game |
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| JoeyKnothead Savant
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Post 54:
Mon Jul 26, 2010 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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| myth-one.com wrote: | | Katzpur wrote: | | I'm sorry. You may have thought you responded to the question I raised, but I sure couldn't find anything in your answer that seemed relevant to it. |
| Prior to that, Katzpur wrote: | | "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." To me, that is clearly stating that man looks like God and that God has the form of a man. I have never been able to figure out why people are so insistent that this means something else. |
I offered Bible verses which might lead people to believe that God does not have the form of a man -- as you claim:
| Quote: | | For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20) |
If man has no preeminence over the other beasts, and God has the form of a man, does God have preeminence over the other beasts?
| Quote: | | And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; (I Corinthians 15:49-50) |
If mankind cannot enter the Kingdom of God in his present form, and God has the same form, God cannot be there either!
| Quote: | | The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (John 3:8) |
This describes spiritual forms like God! Does it describe man?
Although created in God’s image, mankind was made a little lower than the angels:
| Quote: | | What is man, that thou art mindful of him? ...For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, (Psalm 8:4-5) |
If man is lower that the angels, and man and God are the same form, then God is also lower than the angels!
Adam and Eve were ejected from the Garden of Eden to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and becoming Gods:
| Quote: | | And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. (Genesis 3:22-23) |
Obviously not the same form here, man is mortal, while God lives forever.
======================================
You claimed that "God has the form of a man," and wondered why people are so insistent that ""Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" means something different from man having the same form as God.
Do you still think that I did not respond to your question?
Now can you "figure out why people are so insistent that this means something else?"
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I gotta go with myth-one, on the preponderance of biblical passages in his support.
Course I'm an atheist, so make of my position what you may. |
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Well that didnt last long, reset clock to 24 Aug 10. I must work to ensure I remain civil, as it reflects on me and my peers. |
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| Katzpur Student
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Post 55:
Mon Jul 26, 2010 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| myth-one.com wrote: | I offered Bible verses which might lead people to believe that God does not have the form of a man -- as you claim:
| Quote: | | For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20) |
If man has no preeminence over the other beasts, and God has the form of a man, does God have preeminence over the other beasts? |
In Genesis 1:28, God tells man to "...have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." It sounds to me as if God did make man preeminent over the rest of His creation. That aside, I see no reason to assume that physical form has any relevance to preeminence.
| Quote: | And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. | Quote: | | Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; (I Corinthians 15:49-50) |
If mankind cannot enter the Kingdom of God in his present form, and God has the same form, God cannot be there either! |
Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, but resurrected man is not flesh and blood, but flesh and bone. Jesus Christ himself was resurrected as a man who had flesh and bone and who ascended into Heaven in physical form.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (John 3:8) |
This describes spiritual forms like God! Does it describe man? |
Myth, might I ask how you would define the word "spirit"? To me it is life. God breathed life into Adam when He created Him and Adam became a living soul. Every human being possesses a spirit, which is his life essence.
| Quote: | Although created in God’s image, mankind was made a little lower than the angels:
| Quote: | | What is man, that thou art mindful of him? ...For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, (Psalm 8:4-5) |
If man is lower that the angels, and man and God are the same form, then God is also lower than the angels! |
Again, you are presupposing that physical appearance determines ranking.
| Quote: | Adam and Eve were ejected from the Garden of Eden to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and becoming Gods:
| Quote: | | And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. (Genesis 3:22-23) |
Obviously not the same form here, man is mortal, while God lives forever. |
I don't believe they were cast out to prevent them from becoming gods. I believe they were cast out because of their disobedience. God placed cherubim and a flaming sword in front of the Tree of Life. This alone would have prevented them from eating its fruit. He did not need to cast them out to achieve this. Besides, after they ate from the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, God said, "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil." Adam and Eve had already taken the first step towards becoming like God.
| Quote: | | Do you still think that I did not respond to your question? |
No, these answers made more sense to me than your previous ones. Thanks for making a second attempt.
| Quote: | | Now can you "figure out why people are so insistent that this means something else?" |
Sorry, I really can't. I think there is so much more evidence that when the Bible said we were made in God's image, that's exactly what it meant to say. |
_________________
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." ~Rudyard Kipling ~ |
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| Katzpur Student
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Post 56:
Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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| joeyknuccione wrote: | | I gotta go with myth-one, on the preponderance of biblical passages in his support. |
Seriously? Which passages specifically are you thinking of? And what do you believe the passage which God says, "Let us create man in our image, after our likeness" really means? How would you define an "image"? Can you use the word "image" in a sentence to mean anything other than the representation of something's physical qualities? For instance, the following examples express what I believe the word "image" means: "The twins are the spittin' image of one another." (They look just alike.) "I saw my image in the mirror." (The mirror showed me what I look like.) "The sculptor's work is a perfect image of his model." (His sculpture is a very accurate representation of what his model looked like.) "The image he tries to portray is of a successful businessman." (His appearance is what you would expect of a successful businessman.) "He is the image of health." (He looks healthy.) |
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"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." ~Rudyard Kipling ~ |
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| myth-one.com Guru Joined: 09 Aug 2006 Total posts: 1220 Gender: Undisclosed
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Post 57:
Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Katzpur wrote: | | Myth, might I ask how you would define the word "spirit"? To me it is life. God breathed life into Adam when He created Him and Adam became a living soul. Every human being possesses a spirit, which is his life essence. |
Better to answer this first. It is a special kind of life. The Bible speaks of only two types of beings -- physical and spiritual. God, the Son of God, the Holy Spirit and all the angels (including Satan) are spiritual bodies. All other life is physical -- from single cell life up to and including mankind.
| Katzpur wrote: | | In Genesis 1:28, God tells man to "...have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." It sounds to me as if God did make man preeminent over the rest of His creation. That aside, I see no reason to assume that physical form has any relevance to preeminence. |
Man dominates all other physical beings while living. For each man/woman it is a fleeting existence. But all physical beings die and return to dust. At that time none are preeminent:
| Quote: | | For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20) |
| Katzpur wrote: | | Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, but resurrected man is not flesh and blood, but flesh and bone. Jesus Christ himself was resurrected as a man who had flesh and bone and who ascended into Heaven in physical form. |
Anything physical is corruptible and temporary. The Bible says the corruptible must put on incorruption:
| Quote: | | Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. (I Corinthians 15:50) |
The corruptible is the physical. The incorruptible is the spiritual. The physical dies, the spiritual is immortal.
| Katzpur wrote: | | I think there is so much more evidence that when the Bible said we were made in God's image, that's exactly what it meant to say. |
What exactly is God's image?
| Quote: | | And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. (I Corinthians 15:44-50) |
This is Paul writing to the Christians at Corinth. As Christians (we) have born the image of the earthy, we shall also (future tense) bear the image of the heavenly.
If God is in Heaven, can we assume that He has a heavenly image? If so, then man and God have a different image in the New Testament.
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How are we in the likeness or image of God and the angels? Both man and all spiritual beings have freedom of choice. Both mankind and some of the angels were created to have dominion over and care for the earth under the auspices and authority of God. God and man both possess a creative nature. God created everything that was ever created. Within his environment man is also very creative and inventive.
The most important way in which man is made in the likeness of God is that man is the only animal which has the capability of becoming equal unto the angels. Speaking of those who shall inherit the Kingdom of God in the world to come, Jesus states:
| Quote: | | Neither can they die any more, for they are equal unto the angels... (Luke 20:36) |
How were man and spirits created differently? Man was created only a "little lower than the angels." In fact, man was created originally with only two differences between him and the angels! These two differences between men and angels are described in the book of Genesis. They are body type and knowledge of good and evil. |
_________________
Christian Filicide?: All The Dead Innocent Children
Short Article: The Blame Game |
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Skyangel Under ProbationGuru Joined: 16 Jun 2010 Total posts: 1041 Gender: Undisclosed
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Post 58:
Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:44 am Post subject: |
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| naz wrote: |
Trinity: Trinity is widely known among Catholics, it is done before entering a sacred holy building. You dip your hand in holy water then you do the sign of trinity, that is a cross, touching the head, the heart, then shoulder to shoulder. It is a way of purification. Then later the same is done without holy water through praise and prayer through the trinity.
You can be thankful for Jesus, but if you are not thankful for the Holy Spirit and the father then you are missing out on God and his purpose through Jesus, the father and the Holy Spirit.
Graphic from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity |
Where does man fit into the picture? Jesus is the son of man as well as the son of God is he not?
It seems to me that the trinity concept leaves mankind completely out of the picture and does not relate mankind to God at all. It is a concept which separates man from God rather than uniting man with God. |
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Post 59:
Wed Jul 28, 2010 5:23 am Post subject: |
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| Katzpur wrote: |
Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, but resurrected man is not flesh and blood, but flesh and bone. Jesus Christ himself was resurrected as a man who had flesh and bone and who ascended into Heaven in physical form.
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Why do the people who preach this and believe it think it makes any difference if flesh has blood or bones added to it? The fact still remains that those who walk in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
A bloodless body of flesh is still a body of flesh is it not?
Why do people deceive themselves into believing a fleshly body which has blood in it is not pleasing to God while one without blood is pleasing to God when the bible clearly states that no flesh at all can please God?
Why would God allow something that is not pleasing to Him to inherit the kingdom of God?
Where does it say that flesh and bone can enter the kingdom of God?
Who says the body which the disciples saw was a real tangible body and not just a spiritual vision ?
Jesus is the image of the invisible God. An invisible being is a Spirit which has no visible body of flesh and bones of itself.
Col 1:5 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
The image of God is an invisible image.
An invisible image is not "flesh and bone" or "flesh and blood" or "flesh and blood and bone". |
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| terrellmac1 Student
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