Jesus was "supposed" to return very soon

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Nickman
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Jesus was "supposed" to return very soon

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Post by Nickman »

In the NT we see a few mentions of the return of Jesus' being very soon and when I ask the question I usually get the same ole answer, "a day to god is like a thousand years". This doesn't mean anything to me and I feel is intellectually dishonest because the verses that promote a quick return are in direct contradiction to this one verse that people cling to in order to digest the fact that it has been 2000 years and there is no sign of Jesus. People take this one verse and disregard the many other verses that contradict it. How can people pick and choose?

With that said, I would like to bring the verses forth and analyze them against 2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.


Note that this is talking about the Judgement which is the return of the Christ.

First verse in opposition to this:

1 Thessalonians 4:13
"But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve, as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words."
In this verse, the fallen asleep are dead, but with the mentality that they are waiting for resurrection. Now we see this part, "For this we say to you by the word of the Lord". This is a statement that what they are about to hear is from god. Then we read, "that we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord", followed by later "we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together". We see the preaching of the supposed author Paul telling this congregation that they who are still alive at the coming of Christ will not precede those who have already died. This congregation was supposed to see Jesus' return according to Paul.

Just one more and I will hand over the floor to whoever wants to comment.

Mark 13:30
Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
Now I want people to know that Mark is the most accurate account we have because it is the earliest gospel. It is the simplest and straight to the point.

In this verse Jesus just finished a discourse about the end and the return of himself saying he knows not the time but only his father. Ok, thats fine, but he says this generation or age meaning in Greek this group of people living now when rendered with the word "houtos" meaning this, now, as in visibly present. There is no way around this contradiction because the book of Mark is the most accurate gospel we have and most authentic with the least amount of years of oral tampering before its publication. Jesus according to Mark is saying that the generation back then would see his return. [/b]

Flail

Re: Jesus was "supposed" to return very soon

Post #71

Post by Flail »

EduChris wrote:
Flail wrote:...Experiments we had in law school clearly demonstrated that hearsay...he said, she said...narratives passed along a single row of students...came out quite differently at the other end...in a matter of a few minutes.
And these were TV generation students, right?

Ancients were orders of magnitude better at memorization than we are. But even today you have people who have memorized the entire Qur'an or the entire New Testament. You shouldn't underestimate the abilities of ancient people based on your assessment of what goes on in our (quite different) culture.
I am giving you a real world example from common experience in the field. You are speculating on nothing more than your desire to believe it is so. I doubt the illiterate peasants who followed Jesus were particularly adept at memorizing events or 'matters on the wind' any more than other human beings. They were more likely gullible, fearful individuals easily swayed by those educated few who skilled at language and oratory who came into their midst like Paul.

Flail

Re: Jesus was "supposed" to return very soon

Post #72

Post by Flail »

EduChris wrote:
Nickman wrote:...I took the scenario you gave and showed that the context shows that Jesus was speaking to the disciples telling them to watch and pray. This is an indication of who the audience was and who the message was for. So yes the Greek does back up what I am claiming. It can back up your idea as well but the context isnt there.
When it comes to this passages, Christians and non-Christians alike have been confused about what is really being said. There are views that the event to which "this generation" refers is the destruction of the Temple. There are views that "this generation" is simply a metonym for "this sort of unbelieving generation" (the same sort of "generation" that persists even today).

Is it possible that Jesus believed that the end of cosmic history as we know it would occur within the lifetimes of those to whom he spoke? Yes, it's possible but like all such possibilities is a tenuous one--and one that not many Christians are going to adopt. Christians--at least the non-fundamentalist ones--understand that texts can be construed in many different ways. We do the best we can with what we have, and we're not about to dump Jesus into the "false prophet" category simply on the basis of one very difficult-to-understand passage.
Yes, anything is possible, but you really have to 'spin it to win it' with this one. Come on now....this generation??? can that logically be spun into beyond 20 centuries???

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Re: Jesus was "supposed" to return very soon

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Post by Nickman »

Flail wrote:
Yes, anything is possible, but you really have to 'spin it to win it' with this one. Come on now....this generation??? can that logically be spun into beyond 20 centuries???
Good point. I would like to now post another verse that says the same thing (Jesus will return soon) from a different book.
Romans 13:11-12

And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
Now, is Paul talking to us or to the Roman church? If we say he is talking to us (any reader) then we are being dishonest because the letter was to the Romans. Specifically to them he writes, "it is high time", "the day is at hand". These are words that are from a person who is trying to warn his people that the time for the return is close, not a warning to people 2000 years in the future.

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Re: Jesus was "supposed" to return very soon

Post #74

Post by EduChris »

Flail wrote:..anything is possible, but you really have to 'spin it to win it' with this one. Come on now....this generation??? can that logically be spun into beyond 20 centuries???
My own view, which is shared by many scholars, is that the destruction of the temple in 70AD is the event which "this generation" would live to see.

Mark often uses a literary device which has come to be known as a "Markan sandwich," wherein he uses one situation to bracket another situation. Here he uses the situation of the destruction of the temple (Mark 13:1-3, Mark 13:30-31) to "sandwich" the situation of the end of cosmic history. The one situation (the destruction of the temple) is a foreshadowing or a "type" or a microcosm of the other situation (the end of cosmic history). Mark uses this same literary technique elsewhere, most famously in Mark 11, where the cursing of the fig tree "sandwiches" the cleansing of the temple (cf. Matthew 21).

At any rate, this passage is peculiarly complex, as Mark seems to interweave a number of separate sayings from Jesus. Is it confusing? Yes. Does it mean that Jesus was a false prophet? No. What it means is that we have to be careful about the how we interpret complex passages.

Flail

Re: Jesus was "supposed" to return very soon

Post #75

Post by Flail »

EduChris wrote:
Flail wrote:..anything is possible, but you really have to 'spin it to win it' with this one. Come on now....this generation??? can that logically be spun into beyond 20 centuries???
My own view, which is shared by many scholars, is that the destruction of the temple in 70AD is the event which "this generation" would live to see.

Mark often uses a literary device which has come to be known as a "Markan sandwich," wherein he uses one situation to bracket another situation. Here he uses the situation of the destruction of the temple (Mark 13:1-3, Mark 13:30-31) to "sandwich" the situation of the end of cosmic history. The one situation (the destruction of the temple) is a foreshadowing or a "type" or a microcosm of the other situation (the end of cosmic history). Mark uses this same literary technique elsewhere, most famously in Mark 11, where the cursing of the fig tree "sandwiches" the cleansing of the temple (cf. Matthew 21).

At any rate, this passage is peculiarly complex, as Mark seems to interweave a number of separate sayings from Jesus. Is it confusing? Yes. Does it mean that Jesus was a false prophet? No. What it means is that we have to be careful about the how we interpret complex passages.
I acede to your obvious expertise in the area of Biblical interpretation. It is very interesting. IMO, Biblical verses as with much that is written 'philosophically' is subject to wide interpretation.

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Re: Jesus was "supposed" to return very soon

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Flail wrote:
EduChris wrote:
Flail wrote:..anything is possible, but you really have to 'spin it to win it' with this one. Come on now....this generation??? can that logically be spun into beyond 20 centuries???
My own view, which is shared by many scholars, is that the destruction of the temple in 70AD is the event which "this generation" would live to see.

Mark often uses a literary device which has come to be known as a "Markan sandwich," wherein he uses one situation to bracket another situation. Here he uses the situation of the destruction of the temple (Mark 13:1-3, Mark 13:30-31) to "sandwich" the situation of the end of cosmic history. The one situation (the destruction of the temple) is a foreshadowing or a "type" or a microcosm of the other situation (the end of cosmic history). Mark uses this same literary technique elsewhere, most famously in Mark 11, where the cursing of the fig tree "sandwiches" the cleansing of the temple (cf. Matthew 21).

At any rate, this passage is peculiarly complex, as Mark seems to interweave a number of separate sayings from Jesus. Is it confusing? Yes. Does it mean that Jesus was a false prophet? No. What it means is that we have to be careful about the how we interpret complex passages.
I acede to your obvious expertise in the area of Biblical interpretation. It is very interesting. IMO, Biblical verses as with much that is written 'philosophically' is subject to wide interpretation.
When things are written so figuratively, you can make passages mean anything you want. I often see interpretations that I just can't see are supported by the text. I try as much as I can to see some of the claims, and I look at it, and it just doesn't make sense to me.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

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Re: Jesus was "supposed" to return very soon

Post #77

Post by EduChris »

Goat wrote:...I try as much as I can to see some of the claims, and I look at it, and it just doesn't make sense to me.
There's nothing wrong with not understanding, and everything right about trying to understand. That's all any of us can do.

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Re: Jesus was "supposed" to return very soon

Post #78

Post by theopoesis »

ChristShepherd wrote: The earliest canon of NT Scriptures does not include 2Peter. It is dated to the third century and yet 2Peter was not known. Ths shows that it was a very late forgery.
http://everything2.com/title/Muratorian%2520canon

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I don't see that anyone has responded to this, and it is a good point that I believe warrants consideration. It is quite true that 2 Peter was a later addition to the canon, but not entirely accurate that the Muratorian Canon implies it was unknown. The Muratorian canon does not list works like the didache or the Gospel of Matthew or the Epistle of Barnabas, each of which are indisputably earlier than the canon. Silence does not mean ignorance, it just means that the text was not considered to be canonical by the author. Given that some churches today still do not accept the work, we should not be surprised to find ancient attestation to a canon without 2 Peter. 2 Peter was certainly written by the time of Origen (c. 240AD), as he acknowledged the disputed nature of 2 Peter. This means that 2 Peter was already in widespread circulation in order to create a controversy. Moreover, Origen might be an earlier witness than the Muratorian canon (whose dating is contested... our earliest extant manuscript is much later than Origen).

In fact, the majority of complete older codices that we have contain 2 Peter, indicating the practice of including 2 Peter in the canon regardless of official lists. For example, the Bodmer Papyrus, the Codex Vaticanus, and the Codex Sanaiticus all from the 3rd - 4th centuries contain 2 Peter. Certainly, the dates might be later than the Muratorian canon, but they are some of the earliest extant NT codices. Is it likely that 2 Peter, if so spurious and late, would be present in each of these earliest codices despite their widespread geographic origination? Can we not expect these codices to in fact represent older textual traditions, or are we to believe that each codex is an original version of a textual tradition, and each simultaneously adopted 2 Peter for the first time? I appreciate the turn to text and canon criticism, but I do not believe that the Muratorian canon conclusively proves anything.

On an unrelated note, I think we have bypassed a very important presupposition to this entire question: the nature of doctrine/language. Though spiritual/literal meanings have been discussed, a deeper question requires us to ask what the purpose of this (or any) doctrinal statement or theological claim might be. We have a few options here that would sidestep entirely this debate:

(1) Kierkegaard: To Kierkegaard the essential doctrines of the Christian faith and message (a three-but-one God, a God-man, death leading to life) were intentionally designed by God so as to be so absurd to human logic as to require a blind leap of faith into the arms of God, which in Kierkegaard's mind was the only existential solution to the human dilemma. The contradictions of the second coming would not be a problem for him. They would be evidence of God's design.

(2) Luther: Luther considered Christianity to be fundamentally about paradoxes, which were the primary way that the finite human mind could understand an infinite human God. Man is simul iustus et peccator (simultaneously just and sinner), the law is simultaneously given for humanity's salvation and condemnation, humans are simultaneously responsible and bound in will. Not to mention the "absurdities" of Kierkegaard above were interpreted as paradoxes by Luther. Perhaps the question of the second coming is simply another paradox intended to do something quite distinct from allowing us to mark our calendars in advance.

(3) Wittgenstein: Though the early Wittgenstein admittedly claimed we should not speak about what we do not know (hence rendering this entire forum a waste of time in his mind), the later Wittgenstein coined the idea of the "language game." Language (and perhaps doctrine and theology) are like a game. Specific claims, even if nonsensical from a literal standpoint, still perform important functions in larger philosophical, cultural, ethical, noetic, and existential ways.

(4) Post-Liberalism: Much similar to Wittgenstein, post-liberals like Lindbeck and Hauerwas would focus not on the locution of eschatological doctrine, but on the perlocution of it (to interpret post-liberalism through the lens of ordinary-language philosophy). What is significant is not the propositional truths of eschatology, but rather how these truth claims shape the worshipping community of Christians as a dialectical embodiment of the doctrines on which they fixate.

(5) Process Theology: If doctrine is not an eternal decree from God, but rather can change with time (which is quite possible if we take seriously Process Theology's claim to God's mutability) the two contradictory statements taken (according to historical criticism) from two distinct time periods could represent an unfolding revelation from God.

What's the point with all these options? I merely wish to point out that the premise of this entire post is subject to question depending on the way you look at doctrine and language. If, at the end of the day, one side conclusively proves the logical and textual incompatibility of Jesus' NT eschatological claims, it doesn't necessarily invalidate the significance and importance of said passages. That being said, I think the textual verdict is still out, and I certainly don't subscribe to all of the above notions. And yes, I recognize that to a large extent they are legitimizing theories, but they are the same sorts of legitimizing theories that are buttressing metanarratives in fields like philosophy, linguistics, and semiology against the nihilistic tide of postmodernity.

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Post #79

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Jesus was supposed to return very soon?

He was supposed to get our sins forgiven, but dangitall if we still don't get in trouble for doing the ones we like the most.

As far as gods and such goes, I wouldn't let Jesus bat if I was in the bottom of the ninth with a ten run lead.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
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Post #80

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Skyangel wrote: I see those explanations of parables as parables within parables. The word which Jesus spoke were no ordinary words which applied only to his immediate disciples 2000 years ago. They apply to all His disciples for all eternity. They apply to all who are as much alive as Jesus is alive in HIS generation which an eternal generation of those who live forever and never die spiritually. It is not talking about a physical generation but about a spiritual eternal generation.
Nickman wrote: I see that this is the way you swallow the fact that Jesus hasn't returned. I used to do the same type of stuff. I used to try so hard to make chicken crap look like chicken salad cause I didnt want my Jesus to be a false prophet, but in light of all of the verses in the NT that support a real physical return that was supposed to be very very soon, one cant help but just give in to the truth that is there in front of them. One must say thats it, I am tired of defending this man who has more contradictions than anyother subject on the planet. Christshepherd pointed out another great fact that 1 and 2 peter were forgeries written in the second century C.E. How could peter be the author when the canons of the first century never mention said letters and 200 years later they pop-up mysteriously from the one and only Eusubius who is a known forger of Flavius Josephus' works? The scripture I am talking about in 2 peter is 3:8. The church had been established and clergy were trying to answer questions of why Jesus had not returned as promised. So magically these two letters written by peter show up stating that god's time is different from ours. What a cop-out and down right deception. Jesus meant he was returning and so did his disciples. It wasnt a spiritual return, it was a real physical one. The bible is clear on it.
I also swallowed the fact that I would never see Santa and his flying reindeer on my roof when I grew up enough to realize it was a fantasy.
I also used to try so hard to make chicken salad cause I got sick of playing mud pies, and I finally succeeded and have become a great cook. I can even cook up a great roast chicken for christmas dinner and make sure "Santa" still leaves presents under the tree for those who still want to live in fantasy land.

The Truth is always there in front of all of us. People fall over it more often than not and can't even recognize the "stone which makes people stumble".
Anyone can say "That's it, I am tired of falling over this stone. " and they can remove the stone from their path so they no longer fall over it. The other choice is to leave it there as a memorial and reminder to be more aware of the stone/stumbling blocks and watch where you are walking.

It makes no difference to me what is claimed to be a forgery and what is not claimed to be forgery. No person can create a forgery of anything if the original article does not exist in the first place. A forgery of something is a copy of an original. Therefore even if we don't have the original, we can still get a good idea of what it is like by studying the forgery.

The scripture in 2 peter 3:8 is verified by Revelation 10:6 in the principle/concept of there being no time at all in the spiritual realm. The thousand years and one day is all the same in the spiritual realm because time no longer exists in that realm. Love does not get older. Truth does not get older. Wisdom does not get older. Joy does not get older. Name any "spirit". ie peace, patience, etc, and ask yourself does it get older? Some things are simply timeless and ageless. If that seems false or deceptive to you, please explain why and what's wrong with the logic in your opinion?
Spiritual things like Love Joy Peace, etc and all their opposite "spirits" do not get older and they keep returning to the physical realm all the time in the new people who are born on earth. The bible is clear on it. I personally can clearly see the concept anyway, even if no one else can.

Maybe you just need to grow up and realize you are "gods" before you understand the concept of the return of "santa" every year?
Goodness, Kindness, Love, etc etc etc are all within you. The kingdom of God is within you not in some place in outer space or at the north pole or elsewhere in your imagination. It is the reality of the Spirit ( Love, Truth, Peace, etc ) within you.
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