Jesus & the Torah

[Murad]

I have studied the bible for over 40 years. ....Jesus fulfilled all the law and all prophecies about Him in the Spirit.

Question for debate:
1. Did Jesus fulfill all the prophesy in the Torah like many Christians claim?

[JehovahsWitness]

If you take the New Testament literally, since he has no father, he is not of the "Seed of David'

Jewish inheritance law was not genetic based but rather linked to the family line/name. Thus if a man died without an heir his brother could take his late brothers wife in order to father children for the continuation of his brothers name and inheritance. the result of this union would be a 'son' with the 'name' of one man and the genetic code of another.

The fact that Jesus genetic code was not inherited literally from the semen of Joseph would no more disqualify him from being Josephs legal heir than would the descendents of a 'brother in law' marriage. Jesus was born of the royal line of David both through his adopted father and his mother and thus fully qualified in a claim to be a descendent of King David.

[bjs]

Like I keep saying; Christians may believe anything they like, with no argument from me; but you don't get to tell Jews how to interpret or understand our own Scriptures or why our own traditions and teachings are or might be wrong. That's our business, and non-Jews don't get a vote.

Peace to you, but keep your hands off my religion and mind your own. I don't tell you what to believe, or what you should believe, or what you might consider; kindly extend the same courtesy to me.

There can be little doubt that the Jewish view of the Scripture and the Christian view of the same Scripture are different. One of the themes in the Gospels is that Jesus was presenting a view of the Messiah that was radically different from the view held by most people at that time. One difference is that the Jewish view (if I understand it correctly) does not connect the Messiah with the Suffering Servant found in Isaiah, while Christianity sees these prophesies coming together in Jesus.

If we take the Jewish view, then no Jesus did not fulfill the prophesies of the Scriptures.

If we take the Christian view " that, for instance, the Messiah would conquer sin and death instead of a human adversary " then yes Jesus did fulfill all the prophesies of what Christians call the Old Testament.

[cnorman18]

Like I keep saying; Christians may believe anything they like, with no argument from me; but you don't get to tell Jews how to interpret or understand our own Scriptures or why our own traditions and teachings are or might be wrong. That's our business, and non-Jews don't get a vote.

Peace to you, but keep your hands off my religion and mind your own. I don't tell you what to believe, or what you should believe, or what you might consider; kindly extend the same courtesy to me.

There can be little doubt that the Jewish view of the Scripture and the Christian view of the same Scripture are different. One of the themes in the Gospels is that Jesus was presenting a view of the Messiah that was radically different from the view held by most people at that time. One difference is that the Jewish view (if I understand it correctly) does not connect the Messiah with the Suffering Servant found in Isaiah, while Christianity sees these prophesies coming together in Jesus.

If we take the Jewish view, then no Jesus did not fulfill the prophesies of the Scriptures.

If we take the Christian view " that, for instance, the Messiah would conquer sin and death instead of a human adversary " then yes Jesus did fulfill all the prophesies of what Christians call the Old Testament.

I think I'm OK with that opinion. As I said in post 7, the Christian Christ and the Jewish Messiah are two separate and unrelated concepts.

Judaism and Christianity are two separate religions, related only by their sharing, in part, a literary heritage which they understand in separate and unrelated ways; Christianity incorporates many ideas from Greek religions, superimposing those ideas on a superficially Jewish background. That doesn't make it false; it's certainly a viable and honorable religion in its own right. But it does make it a new, and non-Jewish, religion in its own right as well.

[McCulloch]

The Christian Christ and the Jewish Messiah are two separate and unrelated concepts.

Not according to the Christians.

But Saul kept increasing in strength and confounding the Jews who lived at Damascus by proving that this Jesus is the Christ.

But when Silas and Timothy came down from Macedonia, Paul began devoting himself completely to the word, solemnly testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ.

And when he [Paul] wanted to go across to Achaia, the brethren encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him; and when he had arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace, for he powerfully refuted the Jews in public, demonstrating by the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ.

Agrippa said to Paul, "You are permitted to speak for yourself."
Then Paul stretched out his hand and proceeded to make his defense:

"In regard to all the things of which I am accused by the Jews, I consider myself fortunate, King Agrippa, that I am about to make my defense before you today; especially because you are an expert in all customs and questions among the Jews; therefore I beg you to listen to me patiently.

"So then, all Jews know my manner of life from my youth up, which from the beginning was spent among my own nation and at Jerusalem; since they have known about me for a long time, if they are willing to testify, that I lived as a Pharisee according to the strictest sect of our religion.

"And now I am standing trial for the hope of the promise made by God to our fathers; the promise to which our twelve tribes hope to attain, as they earnestly serve God night and day and for this hope, O King, I am being accused by Jews.

"Why is it considered incredible among you people if God does raise the dead? So then, I thought to myself that I had to do many things hostile to the name of Jesus of Nazareth.

"And this is just what I did in Jerusalem; not only did I lock up many of the saints in prisons, having received authority from the chief priests, but also when they were being put to death I cast my vote against them. And as I punished them often in all the synagogues, I tried to force them to blaspheme; and being furiously enraged at them, I kept pursuing them even to foreign cities.

"While so engaged as I was journeying to Damascus with the authority and commission of the chief priests, at midday, O King, I saw on the way a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining all around me and those who were journeying with me. And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew dialect, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.'

"And I said, 'Who are You, Lord?' And the Lord said, 'I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. But get up and stand on your feet; for this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you a minister and a witness not only to the things which you have seen, but also to the things in which I will appear to you; rescuing you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you, to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.'

"So, King Agrippa, I did not prove disobedient to the heavenly vision, but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance.

"For this reason some Jews seized me in the temple and tried to put me to death.

"So, having obtained help from God, I stand to this day testifying both to small and great, stating nothing but what the Prophets and Moses said was going to take place; that the Christ was to suffer, and that by reason of His resurrection from the dead He would be the first to proclaim light both to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles."

How is the Hebrew word messiah translated into Greek by the Jewish scholars who created the Septuagint? Did they not use the Greek term Christ?

As I understand Christian doctrine, the Christian Christ and the Jewish Messiah are identical concepts, according to Christians.

[cnorman18]

The Christian Christ and the Jewish Messiah are two separate and unrelated concepts.

Not according to the Christians....

How is the Hebrew word messiah translated into Greek by the Jewish scholars who created the Septuagint? Did they not use the Greek term Christ?

As I understand Christian doctrine, the Christian Christ and the Jewish Messiah are identical concepts, according to Christians.

Well, forgive me, but duh...

That IS the Christian view; but it isn't the Jewish one, and any Christian who claims that it is, or even that it OUGHT to be, is, um, shall we say, mistaken. Christians don't get a vote on the proper content of Jewish tradition and belief. Period, end of debate.

I realize that you like to stir up hornets' nests, but this one won't get stirred up on the Jewish side. It's not our problem. Christians can teach what they like, including their (bizarre, in Jewish eyes) interpretations of our Scriptures. We don't have to acknowledge those teachings as even having meaning -- which, in Jewish terms, they don't. It's worth noting that Christians don't acknowledge the Greek influence on Christian theology, either; literal "sons of gods" are thick on the ground in Greek thought, but wholly absent in Jewish tradition and teaching. Likewise with gods and Saviors dying and rising again, which can also be found in Egyptian religion as well as Greek -- but not in Judaism. It would be the same sort of objection to point out that Muslims claim that Jesus was a prophet, but not divine; should that be accepted as truth by Christians? Are they even obligated to consider that point of view?

Note the differences in the attributes of the Messiah that I noted above; which of those do you dispute? If the answer is "none," what is your point? That Jews and Christians disagree about the nature and role of Jesus?

Once again, forgive me, but duh.

[McCulloch]

The Christian Christ and the Jewish Messiah are two separate and unrelated concepts.

As I understand Christian doctrine, the Christian Christ and the Jewish Messiah are identical concepts, according to Christians.

That IS the Christian view; but it isn't the Jewish one, [...]

To quote the sage wisdom of another, well duh.

Yes, it is the Christian view that the Christian Christ is identical to the Jewish Messiah. This view represents an inherent conflict. From the Jewish perspective, the Christians are [ wrong | incorrect | in error | mistaken | false ] in their understanding of the Jewish Messiah. And yet, that understanding is of fundamental importance to the Christian definition of themselves. Also from the Christian perspective, the Jewish view about messiah is [ wrong | incomplete | missing the open net ]. I agree. It is not a Jewish problem that the Christians have a faulty, erroneous understanding on which to base their fundamentally important doctrine that Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah foretold by Moses and the prophets.

Note the differences in the attributes of the Messiah that I noted above; which of those do you dispute? If the answer is "none," what is your point? That Jews and Christians disagree about the nature and role of Jesus?

It is deeper than that. The Jews and the Christians disagree about the nature of what the Jewish scriptures teach about messiah.

[cnorman18]

The Christian Christ and the Jewish Messiah are two separate and unrelated concepts.

As I understand Christian doctrine, the Christian Christ and the Jewish Messiah are identical concepts, according to Christians.

That IS the Christian view; but it isn't the Jewish one, [...]

To quote the sage wisdom of another, well duh.

Yes, it is the Christian view that the Christian Christ is identical to the Jewish Messiah. This view represents an inherent conflict. From the Jewish perspective, the Christians are [ wrong | incorrect | in error | mistaken | false ] in their understanding of the Jewish Messiah. And yet, that understanding is of fundamental importance to the Christian definition of themselves. Also from the Christian perspective, the Jewish view about messiah is [ wrong | incomplete | missing the open net ]. I agree. It is not a Jewish problem that the Christians have a faulty, erroneous understanding on which to base their fundamentally important doctrine that Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah foretold by Moses and the prophets.

Note the differences in the attributes of the Messiah that I noted above; which of those do you dispute? If the answer is "none," what is your point? That Jews and Christians disagree about the nature and role of Jesus?

It is deeper than that. The Jews and the Christians disagree about the nature of what the Jewish scriptures teach about messiah.

Agreed; but it goes even deeper than that, in my opinion. What is the point of religious belief in the first place, never mind Messiahs, the nature of God, or all the rest? In the Jewish view, it's about making THIS life and THIS world better for everyone. In the Christian view, it seems to be about getting your own precious little butt out of the fire and into Heaven. I know which way I'm voting. YMMV.

Like I said, it's not our problem. Jews WROTE the Tanakh. What others want to do with it just isn't our concern.

[McCulloch]

Like I said, it's not our problem. Jews WROTE the Tanakh. What others want to do with it just isn't our concern.

Doesn't it bother you just a bit, that the dominant group of religions of humanity are based on a false reading of your scriptures?

[cnorman18]

Like I said, it's not our problem. Jews WROTE the Tanakh. What others want to do with it just isn't our concern.

Doesn't it bother you just a bit, that the dominant group of religions of humanity are based on a false reading of your scriptures?

Historical perspective, man. That's been true for two thousand years. We're kinda used to it, y'know? At least they're not burning our houses and forcing us to leave the country with nothing but the clothes on our backs any more.

What would you have us do? The 2% should start a fight with the 65-80% or so? Feh. Let 'em think what they want, as long as they leave us alone.

[Jester]

In the Christian view, it seems to be about getting your own precious little butt out of the fire and into Heaven.

Going to stay silent on your main point, but feel like I keep getting this opinion foisted on me 'round these parts.
Not all of us take that reading; can we at least qualify that as "many Christians"?