what do you guys think the bible says/shows about slavery? is it right or wrong? does this moral judgement you make come from the bible, or are you using something outside of the bible to judge it?Dr.Physics wrote:really????? lovingly slavery??? i hope this is a jokefewwillfindit wrote:You are correct in saying that the New Testament does not forbid slavery. It gives instructions to masters on how to be kind, loving and honest masters. Also, in, Philemon 1, when the slave Onesimus escaped from his master, Paul told him to return to him. Slaves and masters co-existed in the New Testament churches. It wasn't looked upon as an immoral practice if it was done lovingly. The Christian slaves of Christian masters were considered spiritual equals. If a slave had a loving master, he had security, food, clothing and shelter, and led a pretty decent life. The masters were not domineering taskmasters.
well, this is exactly what i want to show people, how the bible not only is NOT the way to moral enlightenment, but the opposite. i honestly think it speaks for itselffewwillfindit wrote:My point in bringing this up is not to engage in a debate about whether or not we are called to be slaves of Christ. Rather, it is to show that slavery, from a New Testament perspective, is not an immoral thing, so it shouldn't be used as an example attempting to show Christians that their morality is not derived from the Bible. Just because something has been perverted and abused, as in slavery in relatively modern American history, doesn't mean that thing (anything), is immoral in its purest form.
To me, space aliens and slavery are not compelling examples that illustrate how Christians do not derive their base morality from the Bible.
Edit: I need to make it clear that I am not advocating slavery in this day and age. It was culturally acceptible in the New Testament era, and the Biblical guidelines for slavery were meant to conform to that practice.
Moral Dilemma
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Moral Dilemma
Post #1Re: Moral Dilemma
Post #2The Bible is comprised of stories written by men in accordance and in context with their 'life and times' and their particular beliefs, fears and motivations....as with any other book of historical fiction.Dr.Physics wrote:what do you guys think the bible says/shows about slavery? is it right or wrong? does this moral judgement you make come from the bible, or are you using something outside of the bible to judge it?Dr.Physics wrote:really????? lovingly slavery??? i hope this is a jokefewwillfindit wrote:You are correct in saying that the New Testament does not forbid slavery. It gives instructions to masters on how to be kind, loving and honest masters. Also, in, Philemon 1, when the slave Onesimus escaped from his master, Paul told him to return to him. Slaves and masters co-existed in the New Testament churches. It wasn't looked upon as an immoral practice if it was done lovingly. The Christian slaves of Christian masters were considered spiritual equals. If a slave had a loving master, he had security, food, clothing and shelter, and led a pretty decent life. The masters were not domineering taskmasters.
well, this is exactly what i want to show people, how the bible not only is NOT the way to moral enlightenment, but the opposite. i honestly think it speaks for itselffewwillfindit wrote:My point in bringing this up is not to engage in a debate about whether or not we are called to be slaves of Christ. Rather, it is to show that slavery, from a New Testament perspective, is not an immoral thing, so it shouldn't be used as an example attempting to show Christians that their morality is not derived from the Bible. Just because something has been perverted and abused, as in slavery in relatively modern American history, doesn't mean that thing (anything), is immoral in its purest form.
To me, space aliens and slavery are not compelling examples that illustrate how Christians do not derive their base morality from the Bible.
Edit: I need to make it clear that I am not advocating slavery in this day and age. It was culturally acceptible in the New Testament era, and the Biblical guidelines for slavery were meant to conform to that practice.
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Post #3
One big problem with being a slave is that if you don't like the job, you can't quit.
Here is another problem.
Exodus 21:4 (New American Standard Bible)
4"If his master gives him [the slave] a wife, and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall belong to her master, and he shall go out alone. [Go free]
So much for family values.
Here is another problem.
Exodus 21:4 (New American Standard Bible)
4"If his master gives him [the slave] a wife, and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall belong to her master, and he shall go out alone. [Go free]
So much for family values.
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Post #4
None of the writers of the Bible directly condemn slavery. Many of the writers of the Bible make reference to slavery, offering at times, advice for those who find themselves in that role and some regulations for those who find themselves as masters. Certain practices and attitudes, frequently associated with slavery (cruelty on the part of the masters, trying to escape unjust treatment on the part of the slave) are condemned directly by some of the writers of the Bible.
That pretty well sums it up. From a Biblical point of view, anything more would be adding what is not there.
That pretty well sums it up. From a Biblical point of view, anything more would be adding what is not there.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John
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Post #5
You are right!McCulloch wrote:None of the writers of the Bible directly condemn slavery. Many of the writers of the Bible make reference to slavery, offering at times, advice for those who find themselves in that role and some regulations for those who find themselves as masters. Certain practices and attitudes, frequently associated with slavery (cruelty on the part of the masters, trying to escape unjust treatment on the part of the slave) are condemned directly by some of the writers of the Bible.
That pretty well sums it up. From a Biblical point of view, anything more would be adding what is not there.
What's the big deal about slavery?
After all doesn't Jesus have slaves? Or are they just considered servants?
Christ Shepherd
Post #6
I always feel compelled to mention this whenever this subject comes up:
The Code of Hammurabi specified that anyone who refuses to return an escaped slave to his master shall be put to death. The Torah forbids returning an escaped slave to his master. That was originally applied only to Hebrew slaves, to be sure, but since the Torah also commands that "there shall be one Law for you and for the stranger (i.e. Gentile) in your midst," the law was applied to ALL slaves in very short order.
Besides that, in the Code of Hammurabi there was no penalty for injuring or even murdering a slave; slaves were property and had no rights at all. In the Torah, the murder of any slave (Hebrew or not) was forbidden and punished like any other murder, and injury to any slave resulted in the slave being set free. There are other restrictions on slave ownership as well, ALL of which were virtually unheard of in the ancient world.
Slavery was accepted in the Bible as normal and natural, just one of many conditions to which humans might find themselves in -- as one might expect from documents written by men of their time; but the seeds of its eventual abolition are found there too, just as are the seeds of the eventual abolition of cruelty to animals and male domination (and we're still working on both of those, be it noted). Claiming that the writers of the Bible complacently accepted and approved of absolute and unrestricted chattel slavery, as it was practiced in the ancient world and as it is generally understood today, is simply not accurate.
There is an interesting, and in-depth, discussion of the subject here.
Sorry, folks. My usual position on the questions raised around here, from both sides, is "I realize how much you'd like this to be simple, easy and obvious, but it just isn't."
The Code of Hammurabi specified that anyone who refuses to return an escaped slave to his master shall be put to death. The Torah forbids returning an escaped slave to his master. That was originally applied only to Hebrew slaves, to be sure, but since the Torah also commands that "there shall be one Law for you and for the stranger (i.e. Gentile) in your midst," the law was applied to ALL slaves in very short order.
Besides that, in the Code of Hammurabi there was no penalty for injuring or even murdering a slave; slaves were property and had no rights at all. In the Torah, the murder of any slave (Hebrew or not) was forbidden and punished like any other murder, and injury to any slave resulted in the slave being set free. There are other restrictions on slave ownership as well, ALL of which were virtually unheard of in the ancient world.
Slavery was accepted in the Bible as normal and natural, just one of many conditions to which humans might find themselves in -- as one might expect from documents written by men of their time; but the seeds of its eventual abolition are found there too, just as are the seeds of the eventual abolition of cruelty to animals and male domination (and we're still working on both of those, be it noted). Claiming that the writers of the Bible complacently accepted and approved of absolute and unrestricted chattel slavery, as it was practiced in the ancient world and as it is generally understood today, is simply not accurate.
There is an interesting, and in-depth, discussion of the subject here.
Sorry, folks. My usual position on the questions raised around here, from both sides, is "I realize how much you'd like this to be simple, easy and obvious, but it just isn't."
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Post #9
What is "moral" or "immoral" is purely a subjective personal opinion based judgement.Dr.Physics wrote:so you are saying forced labor and marriage is moral? youre crazy
What one person judges as "immoral" or "a sin" or "crazy" another may judge as acceptable. While you of course you have every RIGHT to "believe" as you do and juge something to be "crazy" or "immoral" based your personal beliefs or opinions, this does not automatically create a universally accepted truth. You do not have the right to impose your morality on me (or anyone) and an ad hominem argument of this kind does nothing to further the discussion.
Most countries have a fully qualified medical system in place to assess an individual mental capacities (and take needed action if society deems them unable to conform to standards and laws that govern our society) and Priests, Pastors, TV Evangelators and random internet posters to judge what is "immoral" but I see no value in debating personal value systems.
In short, your conclusion is based on your PERSONAL belief system and what you believe (based on whatever random criteria you might hold) it totally irrelevant to the discussion.
That having been said, I will indulge you this once with my personal views:
Do I personally believe "forced labour" is moral? That would depend on the circumstances and the nature of the conscript and the aims of and validity of the imposing authority.
Do I personally believe marriage is moral? Yes, very much so.
Am I crazy Not certifiably.
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Post #10
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Can you cite a couple or few examples (even hypothetically) in which you think forced labor IS moral using your criteria?JehovahsWitness wrote:Do I personally believe "forced labour" is moral? That would depend on the circumstances and the nature of the conscript and the aims of and validity of the imposing authority.
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ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
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ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence