Moral Dilemma

[Dr.Physics]

You are correct in saying that the New Testament does not forbid slavery. It gives instructions to masters on how to be kind, loving and honest masters. Also, in, Philemon 1, when the slave Onesimus escaped from his master, Paul told him to return to him. Slaves and masters co-existed in the New Testament churches. It wasn't looked upon as an immoral practice if it was done lovingly. The Christian slaves of Christian masters were considered spiritual equals. If a slave had a loving master, he had security, food, clothing and shelter, and led a pretty decent life. The masters were not domineering taskmasters.

really????? lovingly slavery??? i hope this is a joke

My point in bringing this up is not to engage in a debate about whether or not we are called to be slaves of Christ. Rather, it is to show that slavery, from a New Testament perspective, is not an immoral thing, so it shouldn't be used as an example attempting to show Christians that their morality is not derived from the Bible. Just because something has been perverted and abused, as in slavery in relatively modern American history, doesn't mean that thing (anything), is immoral in its purest form.
To me, space aliens and slavery are not compelling examples that illustrate how Christians do not derive their base morality from the Bible.


Edit: I need to make it clear that I am not advocating slavery in this day and age. It was culturally acceptible in the New Testament era, and the Biblical guidelines for slavery were meant to conform to that practice.

well, this is exactly what i want to show people, how the bible not only is NOT the way to moral enlightenment, but the opposite. i honestly think it speaks for itself

what do you guys think the bible says/shows about slavery? is it right or wrong? does this moral judgement you make come from the bible, or are you using something outside of the bible to judge it?

[Flail]

You are correct in saying that the New Testament does not forbid slavery. It gives instructions to masters on how to be kind, loving and honest masters. Also, in, Philemon 1, when the slave Onesimus escaped from his master, Paul told him to return to him. Slaves and masters co-existed in the New Testament churches. It wasn't looked upon as an immoral practice if it was done lovingly. The Christian slaves of Christian masters were considered spiritual equals. If a slave had a loving master, he had security, food, clothing and shelter, and led a pretty decent life. The masters were not domineering taskmasters.

really????? lovingly slavery??? i hope this is a joke

My point in bringing this up is not to engage in a debate about whether or not we are called to be slaves of Christ. Rather, it is to show that slavery, from a New Testament perspective, is not an immoral thing, so it shouldn't be used as an example attempting to show Christians that their morality is not derived from the Bible. Just because something has been perverted and abused, as in slavery in relatively modern American history, doesn't mean that thing (anything), is immoral in its purest form.
To me, space aliens and slavery are not compelling examples that illustrate how Christians do not derive their base morality from the Bible.


Edit: I need to make it clear that I am not advocating slavery in this day and age. It was culturally acceptible in the New Testament era, and the Biblical guidelines for slavery were meant to conform to that practice.

well, this is exactly what i want to show people, how the bible not only is NOT the way to moral enlightenment, but the opposite. i honestly think it speaks for itself

what do you guys think the bible says/shows about slavery? is it right or wrong? does this moral judgement you make come from the bible, or are you using something outside of the bible to judge it?

The Bible is comprised of stories written by men in accordance and in context with their 'life and times' and their particular beliefs, fears and motivations....as with any other book of historical fiction.

[ChristShepherd]

One big problem with being a slave is that if you don't like the job, you can't quit.
Here is another problem.

Exodus 21:4 (New American Standard Bible)
4"If his master gives him [the slave] a wife, and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall belong to her master, and he shall go out alone. [Go free]

So much for family values.

[McCulloch]

None of the writers of the Bible directly condemn slavery. Many of the writers of the Bible make reference to slavery, offering at times, advice for those who find themselves in that role and some regulations for those who find themselves as masters. Certain practices and attitudes, frequently associated with slavery (cruelty on the part of the masters, trying to escape unjust treatment on the part of the slave) are condemned directly by some of the writers of the Bible.

That pretty well sums it up. From a Biblical point of view, anything more would be adding what is not there.

[ChristShepherd]

None of the writers of the Bible directly condemn slavery. Many of the writers of the Bible make reference to slavery, offering at times, advice for those who find themselves in that role and some regulations for those who find themselves as masters. Certain practices and attitudes, frequently associated with slavery (cruelty on the part of the masters, trying to escape unjust treatment on the part of the slave) are condemned directly by some of the writers of the Bible.

That pretty well sums it up. From a Biblical point of view, anything more would be adding what is not there.

You are right!
What's the big deal about slavery?
After all doesn't Jesus have slaves? Or are they just considered servants?

Christ Shepherd

[cnorman18]

I always feel compelled to mention this whenever this subject comes up:

The Code of Hammurabi specified that anyone who refuses to return an escaped slave to his master shall be put to death. The Torah forbids returning an escaped slave to his master. That was originally applied only to Hebrew slaves, to be sure, but since the Torah also commands that "there shall be one Law for you and for the stranger (i.e. Gentile) in your midst," the law was applied to ALL slaves in very short order.

Besides that, in the Code of Hammurabi there was no penalty for injuring or even murdering a slave; slaves were property and had no rights at all. In the Torah, the murder of any slave (Hebrew or not) was forbidden and punished like any other murder, and injury to any slave resulted in the slave being set free. There are other restrictions on slave ownership as well, ALL of which were virtually unheard of in the ancient world.

Slavery was accepted in the Bible as normal and natural, just one of many conditions to which humans might find themselves in -- as one might expect from documents written by men of their time; but the seeds of its eventual abolition are found there too, just as are the seeds of the eventual abolition of cruelty to animals and male domination (and we're still working on both of those, be it noted). Claiming that the writers of the Bible complacently accepted and approved of absolute and unrestricted chattel slavery, as it was practiced in the ancient world and as it is generally understood today, is simply not accurate.

There is an interesting, and in-depth, discussion of the subject here.

Sorry, folks. My usual position on the questions raised around here, from both sides, is "I realize how much you'd like this to be simple, easy and obvious, but it just isn't."

[JehovahsWitness]

I think the the original poster was comparing the slavery system that existed under the Mosaic law to that of the greeks and romans and later pacticed by modern nations like Britain and the United States.

SLAVERY UNDER THE MOSAIC SYSTEM

In the Hebrew language, there is only one word for slave and servant indeed slavery for the jew was temporary servitude that allowed the native to get out of debt(After which he was released from all debt and regained this ancestral land). This practice protected people from starvation and actually allowed many to recover from poverty.

The law provided strict guidelines to protect slaves:

*They were not to work 7 days a week (ex 20: 10)
*Slaves were protected by the same rights regarding injury as any other citizen; a slave who was maimed by his master would be set free (whether the slave lost an eye or a tooth) (ex 20: 26)

*If a slave died because his master beat him, the master could be punished with death. (Ex 21: 12)

*Kidnapping and selling a man carried the death penalty (Ex 20: 16). Slaves were to be freed during the Jubilee year with sufficient resources to restart their new lives.

The fact that some Israelite slaves chose to remain with their master when they were eligible for release is clear indication that slavery among Gods people was not abusive. (Deuteronomy 15:12-17)

*Jews were not allowed to have sex with their slaves.

*Once a female Jew has reached the age of puberty, her master must marry her, betroth her to his son, or set her free

*Women captives could become slaves. But they too were not to be used for mere sexual gratification. The slave girl, like the non slave Israelite girl, had the same rights in this regard; If a man wanted to have sex with his slave he had to, As Deuteronomy 21: 10 - 14 states in part take her as his "bride, and she must become your wife"

WHAT RULES REGULATED NON-NATIVE SLAVES?

The conquering Isaelites always gave the nations the option of total surrender. Failing that, they were commanded to totally annialate the inhabitants from the land promised to them by God. Slavery was not therefore part of the given solution. On occassion however, minor children and/or young girls were spared. This in itself was unusual given the historical context where male children were more highly esteemed than female, and baby girls were sometimes left to die by exposure.

Once a part of the new nation they would enjoy the same basic rights and protections as any other citizen. However, since they had no independent inheritance, they would be viewed as a permanent part of their adopted household. Otherwise the same regulations regarding marriage, financial security and protection against brutality applied.

Jewish scholar Moses Mielziner stated that a slave could never cease to be a man, he was looked upon as a person possessing certain natural human rights, with which the master even could not with impunity interfere. It it thus a gross distortion of fact to attempt to compare slavery under the law to the abusive, demeaning slavery practiced by many societies throughout the ages.

For more details on REGULATIONS please see LINK Is the slavery that existed under bible law comparable to the European & American slave trade?[regulations]
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 79#p811779

FURTHER READING

http://blog.chess.com/TekWz/did-god-con ... lave-trade
Jewish Slavery in Antiquity
http://books.google.com/books?id=php6gZ ... &q&f=false




RELATED POSTS

Is God guilty of FAVORITISM regarding the Israelites?
viewtopic.php?p=1027465#p1027465

How does the Torah differ from The Code of Hammurabi as to its treatment of SLAVES (cnorman18)
viewtopic.php?p=331742#p331742

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

SLAVERY, CHILD ABUSE and ...THE MOSAIC LAW

[Dr.Physics]

I think the the original poster was comparing the slavery system that existed under the Mosaic law to that of the greeks and romans and later pacticed by modern nations like Britain and the United States.

SLAVERY UNDER THE MOSAIC SYSTEM

In the Hebrew language, there is only one word for slave and servant indeed slavery for the jew was temporary servitude that allowed the native to get out of debt(After which he was released from all debt and regained this ancestral land). This practice protected people from starvation and actually allowed many to recover from poverty.

The law provided strict guidelines to protect slaves:

*They were not to work 7 days a week (ex 20: 10)
*Slaves were protected by the same rights regarding injury as any other citizen; a slave who was maimed by his master would be set free (whether the slave lost an eye or a tooth) (ex 20: 26)
*If a slave died because his master beat him, the master could be punished with death. (ex 21: 12)
*Kidnapping and selling a man carried the death penalty (Ex 20: 16). Slaves were to be freed during the Jubilee year.

The fact that some Israelite slaves chose to remain with their master when they were eligible for release is clear indication that slavery among Gods people was not abusive. (Deuteronomy 15:12-17)

*Jews were not allowed to have sex with their slaves.

*Once a female Jew has reached the age of puberty, her master must marry her, betroth her to his son, or set her free
*Women captives could become slaves. But they too were not to be used for mere sexual gratification. The slave girl, like the non slave Israelite girl, had the same rights in this regard; If a man wanted to have sex with his slave he had to, As Deuteronomy 21: 10 - 14 states in part take her as his "bride, and she must become your wife"

What rules regulated non-native slaves?

The conquering Isaelites always gave the nations the option of total surrender. Failing that, they were commanded to totally annialate the inhabitants from the land promised to them by God. Slavery was not therefore part of the given solution. On occassion however, minor children and/or young girls were spared. This in itself was unusual given the historical context where male children were more highly esteemed than female, and baby girls were sometimes left to die by exposure.

Once a part of the new nation they would enjoy the same basic rights and protections as any other citizen. However, since they had no independent inheritance, they would be viewed as a permanent part of their adopted household. Otherwise the same regulations regarding marriage, financial security and protection against brutality applied.

Jewish scholar Moses Mielziner stated that a slave could never cease to be a man, he was looked upon as a person possessing certain natural human rights, with which the master even could not with impunity interfere. It it thus a gross distortion of fact to attempt to compare slavery under the law to the abusive, demeaning slavery practiced by many societies throughout the ages.

Further reading
http://blog.chess.com/TekWz/did-god-con ... lave-trade
Jewish Slavery in Antiquity
http://books.google.com/books?id=php6gZ ... &q&f=false

so you are saying forced labor and marriage is moral? youre crazy

[JehovahsWitness]

so you are saying forced labor and marriage is moral? youre crazy

What is "moral" or "immoral" is purely a subjective personal opinion based judgement.

What one person judges as "immoral" or "a sin" or "crazy" another may judge as acceptable. While you of course you have every RIGHT to "believe" as you do and juge something to be "crazy" or "immoral" based your personal beliefs or opinions, this does not automatically create a universally accepted truth. You do not have the right to impose your morality on me (or anyone) and an ad hominem argument of this kind does nothing to further the discussion.

Most countries have a fully qualified medical system in place to assess an individual mental capacities (and take needed action if society deems them unable to conform to standards and laws that govern our society) and Priests, Pastors, TV Evangelators and random internet posters to judge what is "immoral" but I see no value in debating personal value systems.

In short, your conclusion is based on your PERSONAL belief system and what you believe (based on whatever random criteria you might hold) it totally irrelevant to the discussion.


That having been said, I will indulge you this once with my personal views:

Do I personally believe "forced labour" is moral? That would depend on the circumstances and the nature of the conscript and the aims of and validity of the imposing authority.

Do I personally believe marriage is moral? Yes, very much so.

Am I crazy Not certifiably.

[Zzyzx]

.

Do I personally believe "forced labour" is moral? That would depend on the circumstances and the nature of the conscript and the aims of and validity of the imposing authority.

Can you cite a couple or few examples (even hypothetically) in which you think forced labor IS moral using your criteria?