IS God All-knowing AND All-powerful? MUST READ!!!!!!!!!!

[Dr.Physics]

{god is:}
all knowing= Yes; everything exists in his foreknowledge
all powerful (his power is limitless)
omnipresent (not really; his knowledge accounts for this)

if god has these qualities, it logically follows that god has no free will, and is an automaton:
1) if god is all knowing, he knows what he will do in the future.
2a) if god is all powerful, his power is limitless
2b) god can change his mind (this falls under his limitless power)

deductions:
(A) if god changes his mind, at one point before he changed his mind, he could not have known he was going to do the new action. (if he did know he was going to do the new action, it wouldnt really be changing his mind.)
this renders his all-knowingness void.
(B) god will always know what he will do in the future. this means his mind can never change. he is the most limited being, in terms of choices of future actions, conceivable. he can only do what he knows he will do.
this renders his free will void. (if you cant change your mind, you have no free will)

conclusion: god can only be: (if it exists)
*all powerful, all knowing, and without free will or
*only all-powerful OR all-knowing...which could allow for free will.

so which one of his qualities will you concede? if you wont, where is my argument invalid or not sound?

* also, a sub argument. i maintain that asserting a being CAN be all-powerful, as in limitless power, is a completely unsubstantiated claim, and incorrect. saying something is all powerful means that it is metaphysical, it transcends physics, because all powerfulness breaks all of the rules of physics. because we have absolutely no way of learning the rules of metaphysics, we dont know what the bounds of metaphysics are, or aren't. this gets you to the question of how do you know that a being CAN have LIMITLESS power? even if i concede that this being made the universe, that would not show it had LIMITLESS power, but just that it was supernatural, and very powerful. in other words, being the creator of the universe does NOT necessitate the creator to be LIMITLESS in power.

so that begs the questions:
*what makes you think LIMITLESS power is even possible?
*what makes you think your god has LIMITLESS power, rather than very powerful, or the MOST powerful?

------------------- what do you guys think? ...

[Dr.Physics]

So i guess the questions to answer could be:

*what is wrong with my first argument on the contradiction between god being BOTH all-knowing and all-powerfull, and also having a free will? validity? soundness?
*what is wrong with the properties of god given?
*which property of god's will you concede?
*is all-powerfulness, as in limitless power, possible? if so, how do you know?
*if you have shown all-powerfulness it to be possible, what makes you think god is all-powerful (limitless in power), rather than merely very very powerful, or merely the most powerful?

*and if you want, post the qualities of the god you believe to exist, and why you believe it has these qualities, and ill debate with you.

[hantzu]

I disagree with your whole notion of God. I consider him to be perfect therefore immutable. He cannot change, because change in anyway would be to become less himself. Being transcendent and immutable, he is not subject to time. I understand time to be the measurement of change (or einsteins fourth dimension, whatever). In any case time is something that only applies to the mutable, physical universe. God being the creator of these things, is not subject to time.

So...he does not know what he is going to do, because that statement implies time.

[JehovahsWitness]

Is omnipotence AND omniscient even possible?

Looking at it logically, if omnipotence is the ability to do anything, then the question in itself becomes nonsensical. Its like asking "can a toaster that can toast anything, toast toast?"

Omnipotence means that the impossible becomes possible. In other words, once you are omnipotent you can combine what cannot be combined and make it work. Put simply, God can do anything INCLUDING be selective in the use of his use of powers.

To illustrate: God has infinite power, he CAN destroy everyone and everything. Has he chosen to do so? No, he has clearly chosen to not use his powers in this way. He has, in short been selective in how he uses this power.

In the same way, God can control or limit his use of any of his capacities including that of foreknowledge. He is not subject to his powers, his powers are subject to him. Thus if Almighty God chooses to not know about certain things he is free and perfectly capable of doing so.

Further reading
http://searchforbibletruths.blogspot.co ... sence.html

**NOTE: Some people refer to "logical impossibilities" (claiming you HAVE to know everything in order to not know it). but this conclusion is based on a linear conception of time and space. All human based concepts (that opposites have to cancel each other out, the impossibility of opposing events happening at the same time, of single events happening in a single moment in time ..; etc, etc, etc) is removed by omnipotence and you introduce the possibility of maniulating not just "consequences" but every single event or concept - in other words, if there are no external rules governing your existence, you cannot ask if said rules can be BROKEN; there are no impossibilities, 'logically" or otherwise, for The Creator.

What about 'free will' and omniscience? How can a god know everything and not encroach on the free will of his creation?

Free will, like all freedoms is relative. Only an omnipotent creator can be thought of as free in the absolute sense. By free will we are referring to humans right to self determination, to make a decision about his future and be held responsible for that decision.

So can a human make a decision if a second person knows before hand what that decision will be? Yes, of course, knowledge is not causation. To illustrate: A man stands before two doors. A green one and a red one. A second observer knows which door the man will chose to take. Is the man still making a decision? Yes, as long as the second individual

a) doesn't influence the decision (tell him which door he will choose)
b) remove his options at that moment in time (lock the green door).

Of course a human cannot make a decision to do something he is not capable or designed not to do, thus no human can decide to be able to fly or to be a turtle. So the limits, constaints and responsibilities connected to our freedom or free will is indeed determined by God; but within these limites we indeed enjoy a measure of free will.





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OMNISCIENCE , OMNIPOTENCE and ...SELECTIVE FOREKNOWLEDGE

[Angel]

all knowing= Yes; everything exists in his foreknowledge
all powerful (his power is limitless)
omnipresent (not really; his knowledge accounts for this)

if god has these qualities, it logically follows that god has no free will, and is an automaton:
1) if god is all knowing, he knows what he will do in the future.
2a) if god is all powerful, his power is limitless
2b) god can change his mind (this falls under his limitless power)

deductions:
(A) if god changes his mind, at one point before he changed his mind, he could not have known he was going to do the new action. (if he did know he was going to do the new action, it wouldnt really be changing his mind.)
this renders his all-knowingness void.

This may sound a bit ridiculous because God would be wasting time instead of just doing things the best or most time-saving way the first time around but it's not necessarily out of the question. I believe God knows that He will change His mind and even the reasons behind it. I know from personal experience out of being immature at times that there were times I didn't want to let one of my exes borrow money nor did I want to change my mind on that until she apologized for things she did wrong. So from this I believe we can conclude that God can accomplish that scenario or something similar with more certainty since He's all-knowing and know what it would take to change His mind at a point and when it would happen, etc. Perhaps it was a 'conditional' (subject to change) decision or state of mind to begin with. I'd think God would do this while trying to interact with us in ways that we'd normally interact with each other.

(B) god will always know what he will do in the future. this means his mind can never change. he is the most limited being, in terms of choices of future actions, conceivable. he can only do what he knows he will do.
this renders his free will void. (if you cant change your mind, you have no free will)

I believe my last point covers this deduction of yours. I also don't see why we have to exclude God knowing what HE would choose and wants at all periods of time.

conclusion: god can only be: (if it exists)
*all powerful, all knowing, and without free will or
*only all-powerful OR all-knowing...which could allow for free will.

so which one of his qualities will you concede? if you wont, where is my argument invalid or not sound?

For now, I'd only concede to a limited form of omnipotent and omniscience, and that is defining those in terms of what is 'logically possible'.

* also, a sub argument. i maintain that asserting a being CAN be all-powerful, as in limitless power, is a completely unsubstantiated claim, and incorrect. saying something is all powerful means that it is metaphysical, it transcends physics, because all powerfulness breaks all of the rules of physics. because we have absolutely no way of learning the rules of metaphysics, we dont know what the bounds of metaphysics are, or aren't. this gets you to the question of how do you know that a being CAN have LIMITLESS power? even if i concede that this being made the universe, that would not show it had LIMITLESS power, but just that it was supernatural, and very powerful. in other words, being the creator of the universe does NOT necessitate the creator to be LIMITLESS in power.

Good points here. Unsubstantiated? Yes.

Saying that 'limitless power' is incorrect? I don't know either way.

[stlekee]

Trying to describe God and list his attributes. However powerful you imagine God to be, multiply it by a trillion and you're still not even close.

The concept of the infinite comes to mind when considering God. There is no limit, no measure. God is an infinite number of infinitities. God is not eternal, God is timeless - beyond the constrainst of time / space.

The point is our limited mind cannot grasp limitlessness.

God doesn't DO anything - God IS everything and no thing; everything you can imagine and everything beyond your imagination.

[Dr.Physics]

I disagree with your whole notion of God. I consider him to be perfect therefore immutable. He cannot change, because change in anyway would be to become less himself. Being transcendent and immutable, he is not subject to time. I understand time to be the measurement of change (or einsteins fourth dimension, whatever). In any case time is something that only applies to the mutable, physical universe. God being the creator of these things, is not subject to time.

So...he does not know what he is going to do, because that statement implies time.

so if god can not change, is his power not limitless? is he NOT perfect in power?\

also, is this you conceding to the point that god has no free will?

[Dr.Physics]

Is omnipotence AND omniscient even possible?

Looking at it logically, if omnipotence is the ability to do anything, then the question in itself becomes nonsensical. Its like asking "can a toaster that can toast anything, toast toast?"

well, yes, a toaster can toast toast, especially if it can toast anything. bad analogy

Omnipotence means that the impossible becomes possible.

exactly my point. omnipotence makes the impossible possible, redering the impossible NOT REALLY IMPOSSIBLE. so there is a contradiction with omnipotence, making it internally contradicting, illogical and paradoxical.

In the same way, God can control or limit his use of any of his capacities including that of foreknowledge. He is not subject to his powers, his powers are subject to him. Thus if Almighty God chooses to not know about certain things he is free and perfectly capable of doing so.

FALSE! one can NEVER be above your attributes (or powers as you call them), one is by DEFINITION subject to your attributes. which attributes/powers, or how much power you have makes no difference. Your attributes are what define you.

also, even if he COULD choose what he wanted to know, he would have to know what he didnt want himself to know.... thats another contradiction. so even if i grant you that he could choose when he had certain attributes, you would still run into the exact same problem...

[What about 'free will' and omniscience? How can a god know everything and not encroach on the free will of his creation?

well my debate question was on GODS free will being possible, not ours. i beleive we have free will, because we DO have the ability to change our minds, because we dont have the knowledge already of what we will do, unlike god.

[Dr.Physics]

This may sound a bit ridiculous because God would be wasting time instead of just doing things the best or most time-saving way the first time around but it's not necessarily out of the question. I believe God knows that He will change His mind and even the reasons behind it. I know from personal experience out of being immature at times that there were times I didn't want to let one of my exes borrow money nor did I want to change my mind on that until she apologized for things she did wrong. So from this I believe we can conclude that God can accomplish that scenario or something similar with more certainty since He's all-knowing and know what it would take to change His mind at a point and when it would happen, etc. Perhaps it was a 'conditional' (subject to change) decision or state of mind to begin with. I'd think God would do this while trying to interact with us in ways that we'd normally interact with each other.

i think you might have missed an important point:

if god is all knowing, why would he change his mind? he wouldn't. why? because he already knows all of the factors and outcomes involved. what possible reason would there be for him to change his mind? even if there was a possible reason, he would have already known that reason. so because of his omniscience, he wouldn't change his mind. not only that, but he never will. you seem to think that he would.

but then i can hear you saying, "well just because he doesn't want to doesn't mean that he CANT change his mind."... and thats where my argument picks up. if god wanted to lets say, for the sake of argument, and he does in fact change his mind, what is the consequence?

* before he changed his mind on what he was going to do, he DID NOT KNOW he was going to do the new action (the one he changed his mind to doing)!
this would make his omniscience void... this means he cant both change his mind and be omniscient...

so the only way to keep gods omniscience is to say he CANT change his mind. if he did change his mind, above *scenario occurs. so what is the consequence if he CANT change his mind?

* if god cant change his mind, he has no free will

from the above scenarios/arguments, it is shown that god can not SIMULTANEOUSLY be:

all powerful, all knowing and have a free will all at the same time....

somethings got to give, these 3 qualities are in contradiction with eachother if all are existent in one being at the same time. so which attribute(s) will be conceded?
*note: adding in all-loving, or perfectly just.. .whatever flavor of that you like, will make it a whole lota messy...

[Angel]

This may sound a bit ridiculous because God would be wasting time instead of just doing things the best or most time-saving way the first time around but it's not necessarily out of the question. I believe God knows that He will change His mind and even the reasons behind it. I know from personal experience out of being immature at times that there were times I didn't want to let one of my exes borrow money nor did I want to change my mind on that until she apologized for things she did wrong. So from this I believe we can conclude that God can accomplish that scenario or something similar with more certainty since He's all-knowing and know what it would take to change His mind at a point and when it would happen, etc. Perhaps it was a 'conditional' (subject to change) decision or state of mind to begin with. I'd think God would do this while trying to interact with us in ways that we'd normally interact with each other.

i think you might have missed an important point:

if god is all knowing, why would he change his mind? he wouldn't. why? because he already knows all of the factors and outcomes involved.

You have to factor in that He's acting in time and to where we can relate to Him. God changing His mind does not contradict omniscience if He knows that He'll change His mind and why. When I say changing His mind with omniscience, I mean He knew exactly that He'd agree to something at one point and then go to another decision at another point. So that first choice was never really His 'final' decision in other words, which I don't believe God could ever make known to us because it may take away from whatever we can understand in our present situation which is all God is focusing on when dealing with if He wants us to go through an experience and learn from it.

what possible reason would there be for him to change his mind? even if there was a possible reason, he would have already known that reason. so because of his omniscience, he wouldn't change his mind. not only that, but he never will. you seem to think that he would.

I think that God can and has changed His mind for the reasons I stated above. If God told us everything that would happen or decisions factoring all of those in, then we'd never learn anything and what's the point in living out your life when you know every detail that would happen? To God that's redundant, so I couldn't imagine why He would make it redundant for us as well.

but then i can hear you saying, "well just because he doesn't want to doesn't mean that he CANT change his mind."... and thats where my argument picks up. if god wanted to lets say, for the sake of argument, and he does in fact change his mind, what is the consequence?

* before he changed his mind on what he was going to do, he DID NOT KNOW he was going to do the new action (the one he changed his mind to doing)!
this would make his omniscience void... this means he cant both change his mind and be omniscient...

I defined what I meant by God changing His mind in my first response in this post. Simply shifting from one decision in your mind to another does not always have to mean it was due to some unknown factor that convinced you to change your mind. I explained how that works above in my 1st response when it comes to how and/or why.

so the only way to keep gods omniscience is to say he CANT change his mind. if he did change his mind, above *scenario occurs. so what is the consequence if he CANT change his mind?

* if god cant change his mind, he has no free will

from the above scenarios/arguments, it is shown that god can not SIMULTANEOUSLY be:

all powerful, all knowing and have a free will all at the same time....

somethings got to give, these 3 qualities are in contradiction with eachother if all are existent in one being at the same time. so which attribute(s) will be conceded?
*note: adding in all-loving, or perfectly just.. .whatever flavor of that you like, will make it a whole lota messy...

He can have free-will by knowing what He wants, and then acting on what He wants at any given time period. There would be no need for Him to do contrary to what He wants unless you are saying you that in the same moment you can choose one thing and choose a total opposite lets say. That's illogical and if that's free-will to you then the definition needs to be redone to have any meaning.