How do we know a sinner when we see one?

[Argenta]

A sinner is one who transgresses God’s law. But what is God’s law? Would any two Christians agree on exactly what this law is? Presumably, the Ten Commandments are included but what about the laws set out in Deuteronomy et al? Is wearing a garment made of two fibres a sin? Am I a sinner if I refuse to stone my unruly child? If we could agree what God’s law is we may be able to establish if all humans really are sinners.

Christianity teaches that all humans are sinners as a principle when in fact it is a question that admits of an empirical answer. Does Christianity say this because those who are free of sin do not need Jesus Christ?

If only the Ten Commandments are included it may be that some people are free of sin. The truth is we cannot know until we define god’s laws explicitly. Can we compile a comprehensive list of sins? And if we can, I wonder if anyone would truly wish to be sin-free?

Argenta

[Argenta]

The question "Are all humans sinners?" has an answer in principle even if it is impractibly difficult to determine. But we have to start with a list of laws.

In any case, don't Christians strive to be free of sin? How can they do this without knowing what God's laws actually are?

A list of laws is one way to start. But if that's only one aspect of sin according to the NT, it's not the only way or the necessary way. I suppose if you wanted an easy list, you could look at Matthew 22:37-40:

" 37 Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Do you entirely disregard God's laws from the OT? If do why?

[Adstar]

I posed this question thinking it was rather mundane only to find that the responses made it interesting.

Admittedly I have only had a handful of replies but they do follow a pattern. All agree that all post-infant humans are sinners. But this seems to be an article of faith (dogma)
rather than something that is empirically known.

All agree that sin is not to be found exclusively in actions but in thoughts too. And there are clearly different ideas of what amounts to sin from different Christians.

Strangely, no-one has offered a list of laws. Why not? Surely this should be the simplest of things to do (even if it’s a long list). After all, sin is one of the central themes of Christian theology (if not the central theme).

I get the feeling that modern Christians have changed the concept of sin in the same way they have updated Christian moral teachings (eg today everyone regards slavery as an abomination). Sin was once straightforward—transgression of God’s law and you can find lists of laws in Deuteronomy, Leviticus and other books. But sin is now a much less concrete thing, such as not “being in Christ� (whatever that means).

Nevertheless, if I wish to serve God and keep myself as free of sin as humanly possible I need to know what I can do and what I cannot do. This is particularly important for Christians who believe their place in heaven relies upon what they do on earth rather than simply what they believe.

So will someone step up to the plate and suggest a list of sins? If not, we’ll have to consider the implications for Christianity if sin is actually not understood. “You are all sinners� but we don’t know what a sinner is doesn’t sound entirely coherent.

Argenta

Nearly everyone i know has a conscience. As a Christian i believe i also have the Holy Spirit also guiding me. I did give two commandments that Jesus gave and mentioned that all the Law of the prophets where covered by One of the two.

Love God and Love your neighbour. Following these two will lead to one avoiding a lot of sin. But never eliminating sin.

So sin is understood. But going out to make up some kind of list might take years and really is a waste of time. And if one needs a list then they are not being guided by the Holy Spirit. And if one does not have the Holy Spirit sin lists have no eternal benefit.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Adstar]

The question "Are all humans sinners?" has an answer in principle even if it is impractibly difficult to determine. But we have to start with a list of laws.

In any case, don't Christians strive to be free of sin? How can they do this without knowing what God's laws actually are?

A list of laws is one way to start. But if that's only one aspect of sin according to the NT, it's not the only way or the necessary way. I suppose if you wanted an easy list, you could look at Matthew 22:37-40:

" 37 Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Do you entirely disregard God's laws from the OT? If do why?

You allow the Holy Spirit to guide you in what you do and do not do. You make a point of following what you are being moved to follow.

1 Timothy 1
5 Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith,


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[theopoesis]

The question "Are all humans sinners?" has an answer in principle even if it is impractibly difficult to determine. But we have to start with a list of laws.

In any case, don't Christians strive to be free of sin? How can they do this without knowing what God's laws actually are?

A list of laws is one way to start. But if that's only one aspect of sin according to the NT, it's not the only way or the necessary way. I suppose if you wanted an easy list, you could look at Matthew 22:37-40:

" 37 Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Do you entirely disregard God's laws from the OT? If do why?

I never said I disregarded the OT. Rather, Jesus said that these two laws summarize the entire OT law and the prophets. I'd say that's pretty on target. Therefore, rather than listing hundreds of laws, I listed these two.

[Argenta]

The question "Are all humans sinners?" has an answer in principle even if it is impractibly difficult to determine. But we have to start with a list of laws.

In any case, don't Christians strive to be free of sin? How can they do this without knowing what God's laws actually are?

A list of laws is one way to start. But if that's only one aspect of sin according to the NT, it's not the only way or the necessary way. I suppose if you wanted an easy list, you could look at Matthew 22:37-40:

" 37 Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Do you entirely disregard God's laws from the OT? If do why?

I never said I disregarded the OT. Rather, Jesus said that these two laws summarize the entire OT law and the prophets. I'd say that's pretty on target. Therefore, rather than listing hundreds of laws, I listed these two.

OK, but I could love god with all my heart and love my neighbours more than I love myself and then pick up sticks on a Sunday or be in a homosexual relationship. Would these actions not be sinful given the former?

Argenta

[Argenta]

So sin is understood. But going out to make up some kind of list might take years and really is a waste of time. And if one needs a list then they are not being guided by the Holy Spirit. And if one does not have the Holy Spirit sin lists have no eternal benefit.

You argue that people should be guided by the holy spirit. I'm not sure this is sufficient. Isn't it true that many Christians from different demoninations sincerely believe they are guided by the holy spirit yet take widely varying views on issues such as contraception, abortion, when they should abstain from work, drinking alcohol or homosexual relationships? Some Christians will see sin in some of these things and others will not.

Is there more than one holy spirit or does the holy spirit give different rules to different people or are some people deceived and think they are guided by the holy spirit when, in fact, they are not?

Argenta

[mitty]

A sinner is one who transgresses God’s law. But what is God’s law? Would any two Christians agree on exactly what this law is? Presumably, the Ten Commandments are included but what about the laws set out in Deuteronomy et al? Is wearing a garment made of two fibres a sin? Am I a sinner if I refuse to stone my unruly child? If we could agree what God’s law is we may be able to establish if all humans really are sinners.

Christianity teaches that all humans are sinners as a principle when in fact it is a question that admits of an empirical answer. Does Christianity say this because those who are free of sin do not need Jesus Christ?

If only the Ten Commandments are included it may be that some people are free of sin. The truth is we cannot know until we define god’s laws explicitly. Can we compile a comprehensive list of sins? And if we can, I wonder if anyone would truly wish to be sin-free?

Argenta

If one is to take the concept of biblical-sins seriously and addtional to our common laws based on the universal concept of "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" then perhaps the "sins" of some of the prominant biblical characters should be looked at.

Is a homosexual relationship between consenting adults really a sin compared to the unpunished crimes-against-humanity comitted by Joshua (Joshua 6:21 8:26) which were condoned by his bronze-age god. That's no different to Saddam Hussein's action or a suicide bomber who uses the same god to excuse his/her action.

Even Jesus broke the fourth commandment (compare Matt 12:1-8 with numbers 15:32-6) and the fifth (Matt 12:46-50) when he rejected his family including his mother. And he didn't mention homosexuality and perhaps because as an unmarried Jewish man in his thirties he had a special relationship with a particular disciple (John 13:23-5 19:26 21:20 Mark 14:51-1 Marks secret Gospel). And his susposed ancestor, David, was pretty good on the sinning business including murder adultery polygamy and homosexuality (2Sam 1:26 1Sam 18;1-4 19:2 20:30-3 20;41).

Maybe it's a case of "do as I say, not as I do" like those slick-tongued hippocrites such as Jimmy Swaggart and Jimmy Bakker and anyone named Garner.

[Adstar]

So sin is understood. But going out to make up some kind of list might take years and really is a waste of time. And if one needs a list then they are not being guided by the Holy Spirit. And if one does not have the Holy Spirit sin lists have no eternal benefit.

You argue that people should be guided by the holy spirit. I'm not sure this is sufficient. Isn't it true that many Christians from different demoninations sincerely believe they are guided by the holy spirit yet take widely varying views on issues such as contraception, abortion, when they should abstain from work, drinking alcohol or homosexual relationships? Some Christians will see sin in some of these things and others will not.

Is there more than one holy spirit or does the holy spirit give different rules to different people or are some people deceived and think they are guided by the holy spirit when, in fact, they are not?

Argenta

There is only One Holy Spirit. Disagreement amongst those who claim to be followers of Jesus. May not be a cause of one having the Holy Spirit and another not. Christians are told in the Bible Not to strive over trivial matters. Things such as contraception and drinking alcohol are trivial matters, even things like Once saved always saved doctrine and rapture doctrine are trivial matter. Trivial meaning non-salvation matters.

But on salvation matters then yes we are called to contend for the truth of the gospel and only one side of a debate (that’s if one side of the debate has truth) has the Holy Spirit. So yes some are deceived.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Adstar]

The question "Are all humans sinners?" has an answer in principle even if it is impractibly difficult to determine. But we have to start with a list of laws.

In any case, don't Christians strive to be free of sin? How can they do this without knowing what God's laws actually are?

A list of laws is one way to start. But if that's only one aspect of sin according to the NT, it's not the only way or the necessary way. I suppose if you wanted an easy list, you could look at Matthew 22:37-40:

" 37 Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Do you entirely disregard God's laws from the OT? If do why?

I never said I disregarded the OT. Rather, Jesus said that these two laws summarize the entire OT law and the prophets. I'd say that's pretty on target. Therefore, rather than listing hundreds of laws, I listed these two.

OK, but I could love god with all my heart and love my neighbours more than I love myself and then pick up sticks on a Sunday or be in a homosexual relationship. Would these actions not be sinful given the former?

Argenta

If you where fully engaged in a homosexual relationship then you would be showing that your claim to Love God was a lie. If you loved God you would bow to His wisdom and acknowledge that Homosexual act is an abomination.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Slopeshoulder]

So sin is understood. But going out to make up some kind of list might take years and really is a waste of time. And if one needs a list then they are not being guided by the Holy Spirit. And if one does not have the Holy Spirit sin lists have no eternal benefit.

You argue that people should be guided by the holy spirit. I'm not sure this is sufficient. Isn't it true that many Christians from different demoninations sincerely believe they are guided by the holy spirit yet take widely varying views on issues such as contraception, abortion, when they should abstain from work, drinking alcohol or homosexual relationships? Some Christians will see sin in some of these things and others will not.

Is there more than one holy spirit or does the holy spirit give different rules to different people or are some people deceived and think they are guided by the holy spirit when, in fact, they are not?

Argenta

There is only One Holy Spirit. Disagreement amongst those who claim to be followers of Jesus. May not be a cause of one having the Holy Spirit and another not. Christians are told in the Bible Not to strive over trivial matters. Things such as contraception and drinking alcohol are trivial matters, even things like Once saved always saved doctrine and rapture doctrine are trivial matter. Trivial meaning non-salvation matters.

But on salvation matters then yes we are called to contend for the truth of the gospel and only one side of a debate (that’s if one side of the debate has truth) has the Holy Spirit. So yes some are deceived.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I'm pretty sure Adstar and I have extremely different beliefs, about as far apart as two people can have in the same religion. But I have to say we agree here. If I define salvation as transformation and reorientation akin to 2nd birth, and the holy spirit to be the sanctifying or deepening presence of the divine object and source of this transformation (however defined), then it is this experience and relationship that matters more than any list.