Rejecting Catholicism???

[WinePusher]

I notice there is a pretty large amount of people who belong to the "Rejected Catholicism" usergroup?

1) Would you please list your reasons as to why you rejected catholicism? If you don't want to, that's fine.

[Slopeshoulder]

I have not rejected catholicism, and I would never ever use the term "recovering catholic" as so many do. But I am not a practicing catholic.

I don't practice for these reasons:
- I'm a bit bored by parish level catholicism
- I'm very very much against the retrograde policies of the last two popes
- I disagree strongly with them on most social issues, most of the hot button issues
- I'm pissed about the pedophile scandal, to say the least
- I'm not a joiner and a little creeped out by the doctrinal detail, how everything seems to be dialed and specified
- I like to travel
- They have not been particularly adept at dealing with modernity; they blow it a lot
- They often pander to the lowest common denominator and so they endorse or turn a blind eye to some goofy dumb stuff, like veneration of saints and other cultish nonsense
- They move like mollasses and can be incredibly arrogant and out of touch


BUT:
- I value my catholic background and education
- I think like a catholic, decisively
- I really appreciate their best thinkers and come back to them over and over and over
- I love the idea of a repository of spiritual and ethical wisdom that exists across time and cultures and outside both the state and popular culture
- If you know where to look, there are some serious grown ups there
- For all the talk of moral repression, they're actually pretty loose
- They honor reason, conscience, tradition, discernment, development, scholarship, etc.
- They are deliberative and deep
- They are diverse
- They seem to create fewer crazies
- I like mediation
- I like sacramental thinking
- They are about culture and identity, so it's not so important to confess a faith like a born-again; nominal counts
- They have a mystical and contemplative tradition
- They've been very nice to me
- I LOVE it at its best and so in my fantasy I spend all my time discussing ultimate things with jesuit scholars and spiritual directors.


The nice thing is that, papal enforcers aside, catholicism is a BIG tent and there's room for most types. I like that too.

[realthinker]

I notice there is a pretty large amount of people who belong to the "Rejected Catholicism" usergroup?

1) Would you please list your reasons as to why you rejected catholicism? If you don't want to, that's fine.

Catholicism happened to be the religion of my family, so that's what I rejected when I rejected religion.

I happen to resent the Catholic Church for its ridiculous status as a sovereign state, for its disdain for the very people it suggests it is serving, for its patronizing attitude on just about everything.

But don't get me wrong. I feel that way about any religion with any degree of international organization.

[realthinker]

I belonged to the group at first, but decided to remove it because I want to be defined by what I am for rather than what I am against.

My reasons for rejecting Catholicism (there are probably some that I am forgetting):

• Veneration of idols (relics)
• Mary died sinless
• Mary died a virgin
• Prayer to Mary
• Mary as co-mediatrix (mediator) with Christ
• Prayer to other dead people (invoking saints)
• Papacy
• Papal succession
• Pope taking the title, "Vicar of Christ"
• Papal infallibility while speaking ex cathedra
• Transubstantiation
• Purgatory
• Penance (we cannot atone for our own sins in any manner)
• Church has authority to pass judgment on and interpret Scripture for members
• Mass/Eucharist is an actual real propitiatory sacrifice offered on behalf of living and dead people
• Salvation is only found within the Catholic Church
• Sacred Tradition is authoritative even when it contradicts Scripture, thus elevating it above Scripture

According to the Council of Trent, the above must be believed to be a Catholic. These teachings cannot be found explicitly in the 66 books of the Bible, and in some cases are explicitly contrary to the Bible, therefore I reject Catholicism and its dogma.

I am answering because the nature of the OP seems to be merely asking "why" and didn't seem like it was intended for debate. I've debated this recently and am a bit burned out on it for the time being. It seems like debating it is futile anyhow, as neither side, since the Reformation, has shown any intention of budging an inch. It is what it is, and certain people are attracted to one or the other and almost seem predisposed to it.

Now, did you decide that all those things are worthy of rejection or did someone tell you the were? Do you have a reason for each of those, or is this simply the list from whichever authority you decided to accept?

[realthinker]

I belonged to the group at first, but decided to remove it because I want to be defined by what I am for rather than what I am against.

OK

According to the Council of Trent, the above must

Which I placed below in order that the readers will understand my response to each.

be believed to be a Catholic. These teachings cannot be found explicitly in the 66 books of the Bible,

Some are explicit, some are implied.

and in some cases are explicitly contrary to the Bible, therefore I reject Catholicism and its dogma.

None are contrary to Scripture.

My reasons for rejecting Catholicism (there are probably some that I am forgetting):

• Veneration of idols (relics)

There are several errors embedded in this little blurb of yours.

1. We don't venerate "idols". Idols are representations of gods. We only venerate the images of Saints and we don't consider them gods.
2. I presume you claim that all images are idols. However, God, Himself, commanded the making of images of cherubim and serpents(Exodus 25:18;Numbers 21:9). Therefore, the mere existence and veneration of an image does not make it an idol nor idol worship.
3. Relics are different than images. They are items which were either part of the body of the Saint or clothing or something which they touched. These have been known to carry the grace of God from OT times (2 Kings 13:21; Acts 19:12).
4. We venerate the Saints because they were friends of God and that is what God wills:
Genesis 12:3
I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.�

[*]Mary died sinless

I'm not aware that Scripture says that she sinned. Please provide Scripture and verse.

Scripture provides no "evidence" of anything. It suggests things, but that's not the same. I guess though you're invoking the believer's acceptance of scripture of evidence.

Still, Does scripture really have evidence that Mary was sinless?

[*]Mary died a virgin

1. Scripture calls Mary a Virgin and provides no evidence that she did not die a virgin.
2. The existence of so called "brothers" of Christ can be traced to the other Mary, the "sister" of the Mother of Jesus Christ:
Matthew 27:56
Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedees children.

I don't think you can claim Scripture as evidence when such significant ideas are held in dispute.

[*]Prayer to Mary

Logically inferred from Scripture. Prayer means "request". And Jesus, being Mary's Son, obviously requested of her everything from a mother's love to bodily sustenance and clothing.

[*]Mary as co-mediatrix (mediator) with Christ

From Scripture we are explicitly told that everyone of us is a co worker with God:
1 Corinthians 3:9
For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

Mary, then, is chief among the CO labourers, because of her unique position. She, amongst all of us, brought the Son of God into the world.

What of Scripture suggests Mary has such significance?

[*]Prayer to other dead people (invoking saints)

This one is quite puzzling to me. Since Jesus said:
John 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Therefore, believers in Christ never die. BELIEVEST THOU THIS?

Then why does the Catholic Church have funeral mass and routinely pray for the souls of the departed? Sounds like the church recognized death in a rather obvious fashion.

If you do, then it should be easy to realize that those who die in Christ remain in the body of Christ and those in the body of Christ belong to one another and are concerned for one another.

If not, well...?

[*]Papacy

Jesus Christ assigned Simon as the Rock upon which He built His Church. In giving Simon His name (i.e. Rock), He signified that Simon would lead His Church. He then proceeded to give Simon the Keys to the Kingdom, essentially empowering him to save souls (Matt 16:18-19)

[*]Papal succession

Christ established many offices.

Please point out scripture's reference to these offices. I read little in the way of organization building in the Bible.

Every Apostolic office was to continue in perpetuity. There is no evidence in Scripture that the offices which Jesus established were to end with the death of the one first assigned to that office. Nor does that make sense.

[*]Pope taking the title, "Vicar of Christ"

Essentially, Christ gave Simon His office.

John 21:17
He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Christ is our Shepherd. But He commanded Simon to feed His Sheep. Effectively assigning Simon as His Vicar or Viceroy, or Vice Pastor if you will.

[*]Papal infallibility while speaking ex cathedra

This is why he has the keys to the Kingdom. Wherein Heaven confirms everything he binds and looses on earth.

[*]Transubstantiation

John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Sounds like transubstantiation to me.

Sounds like metaphor to me. I find it rather presumptuous to make anything more of it than that.

[*]Purgatory

1 Corinthians 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

[*]Penance (we cannot atone for our own sins in any manner)

1 Peter 4:1
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

[*]Church has authority to pass judgment on and interpret Scripture for members

Matthew 18:17
And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

[*]Mass/Eucharist is an actual real propitiatory sacrifice offered on behalf of living and dead people

All are alive unto God. And the Mass is simply Jesus' reformulation of the Passover sacrifice.

[*]Salvation is only found within the Catholic Church

That is true. But not just those within the Catholic Church will be saved:
Acts 10:33-35 (King James Version)

33Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.

34Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

[*]Sacred Tradition is authoritative even when it contradicts Scripture, thus elevating it above Scripture[/list]

Sacred Tradition does not contradict Scripture.

According to the Council of Trent, the above must be believed to be a Catholic.

That doesn't make it true, nor the Catholic Church's position on it significant.

These teachings cannot be found explicitly in the 66 books of the Bible, and in some cases are explicitly contrary to the Bible, therefore I reject Catholicism and its dogma.

I am answering because the nature of the OP seems to be merely asking "why" and didn't seem like it was intended for debate. I've debated this recently and am a bit burned out on it for the time being. It seems like debating it is futile anyhow, as neither side, since the Reformation, has shown any intention of budging an inch. It is what it is, and certain people are attracted to one or the other and almost seem predisposed to it.

No problem. I just wanted to provide the Catholic answer for the record.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[HeatherAnn]

I was amazed that this would even be a subject in the Catholic part of the forum if people reject catholics then they are not very religious. I started church as a Catholic and still would have gone to church at the parish had I had a way to get there since I was a child when this was going on. I for the most part feel comfortable with the Catholic religion.
After being a Catholic for awhile and going to church at a Catholic church and was no longer able to get to church I decided to go to church were I could and when I was asked to go. I have intended a few different religion based churches and feel as if other people have the right to not want a person to go to church at certain churches.Much the way I have noticed things not in church like Christian Stores for example...I went to Christian Store just to look and find out if they sale bibles for the Catholic religion to know if it was possible to find them in the stores.
Well I found out that some of the people working in the Store are not to nice to people asking about the information.There was a person maybe two that were ok other then that it's as if I was a sinner just asking about it from my point of view. This is the correct reason I went back to the Church I once attended to go to church even though it's not every Sunday I do like to go though and enjoy going even if other people have a problem with that.
No matter what I use to attend church and loved going to church to of course pray and allow the lord to know things.Lots of things have seemed to have changed except for the fact of how I feel even if they think I'm the biggest sinner in the world.Which is not a problem since the true nature of me has been faith and to me that's what is better then the judgment or the negative actions from other people because of me going to church there.
For some reasons that I know of it does not bother me because I know I was going there before other people where that use to go there from what they said...It's not like that's important since I believe no person should have to feel or have someone tell them they can not attend a church because of a person believing that it's theirs.
That was not what church was made for even religion from the information I know.
That makes me feel like people that are trying to control church are meaning that Jesus did not die for any person and that history is a lie.
I know I have done things in life that makes me not perfect Geezs people I know things go on in this world but I would never be that objective about teachings and learnings after some of the things I've learned. I also believe that some people that have different faith are some of the people that might be apart of that after learning how these people are being in stores that is about religion.
I just think it's a little bit much if a person thinks I reject Catholics because I have major belief since the pope died and they selected a new pope with the same first Name.

[De Maria]

Scripture provides no "evidence" of anything.

On the contrary, Scripture provides evidence of quite a lot of things. Culture, Tradition, Religion, Jesus' life, etc. etc.

It suggests things, but that's not the same.

It also makes many commands. And those of us who believe it is the Word of God believe they are commands of God.

I guess though you're invoking the believer's acceptance of scripture of evidence.

I'm a believer.

Still, Does scripture really have evidence that Mary was sinless?

It doesn't present any evidence that Mary sinned.

I don't think you can claim Scripture as evidence when such significant ideas are held in dispute.

But I can refute those who hold it as evidence to the contrary.

What of Scripture suggests Mary has such significance?

The fact that she brought the Saviour into the world.

Then why does the Catholic Church have funeral mass and routinely pray for the souls of the departed? Sounds like the church recognized death in a rather obvious fashion.

Does the Church's funeral mass say that the soul of the departed is dead? Or does it simply acknowledge the death of the body?

Please point out scripture's reference to these offices. I read little in the way of organization building in the Bible.

Essentially, the Church is Jesus Christ's Corporation.
corporate (adj.)
early 15c., "united in one body," from L. corporatus, pp. of corporare "form into a body," from corpus (gen. corporis) "body" (see corporeal).
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=corporate

Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

So, He appointed a Chief Administrator:
Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

John 21:17
He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

And appointed 11 other officers called Apostles:
Matthew 10

1And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

2Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;

3Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;

4Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

Sounds like metaphor to me. I find it rather presumptuous to make anything more of it than that.

I guess when you're given the keys to the Kingdom, you have the right to presume. Especially if you walked and talked with the Founder.

Well, if I've missed anything, let me know.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Zuckie]

Because they're child molesters.

[fredonly]

I notice there is a pretty large amount of people who belong to the "Rejected Catholicism" usergroup?

1) Would you please list your reasons as to why you rejected catholicism? If you don't want to, that's fine.

I attended Catholic schools for 12 years. In elementary school, I was taught catechism and Bible in the traditional way, by nuns. I accepted all of it - I had no reason to doubt. In high school, I was taught by priests, who were relatively liberal. Some of my high school theology courses encouraged me to think on my own, and do my own exploration. During these times, I reflected back on my elementary school education, and could not escape the fact that this was indoctrination - we were told what to believe, and never provided a justification for the belief. I realized I was Catholic because I was raised and educated to be Catholic. If Catholicism and Christianity were true, I would need to see the case for it. I took a class in comparative religions at this key point in my questioning - and it reinforced my observation that everyone believed what they were taught to believe.

It was now abundantly clear that religious beliefs are subjective, and that objective religious truth (if there is any) would take effort to find. The more I looked, the more I could see bias and indoctrination in the teachings of all religions. In my case, I could see the bias even in my classes in history and literature. This really pissed me off and motivated me to look deeper and to strive for objectivity. But my attempts at objectivity led to increasing skepticism. Around 11th grade, I decided I was agnostic. The priests assured me I would eventually come back, and with a much stronger faith. It hasn't happened yet, but I do continue exploring from time to time. Joining this forum is part of my continuing exploration. I invite people to prove me wrong. Time's running out - since I'm now 57.

[HeatherAnn]

I surely know how you feel about how it felt being put into a situation with no choice to decide...I also know how Catholics are myself and to a point they are in a way correct about what they said to you even if you have not noticed.After all you were in school for all those years I'm sure that your life does reflect Catholic religion in some ways. After all the religion of Christianity goes the same by giving no one a choice and thinking that they are now the only religion when there are different types and surely always will be.

That was were a similar experience occured was within Christianity and I have went to churches with different religions. I do still like Catholic religion though and I know its not for everybody.I hope one day that someone can prove it to you since your time seems to be running out and it's good to know that you are still researching to find out for sure.

[Adstar]

I belonged to the group at first, but decided to remove it because I want to be defined by what I am for rather than what I am against.

My reasons for rejecting Catholicism (there are probably some that I am forgetting):

• Veneration of idols (relics)
• Mary died sinless
• Mary died a virgin
• Prayer to Mary
• Mary as co-mediatrix (mediator) with Christ
• Prayer to other dead people (invoking saints)
• Papacy
• Papal succession
• Pope taking the title, "Vicar of Christ"
• Papal infallibility while speaking ex cathedra
• Transubstantiation
• Purgatory
• Penance (we cannot atone for our own sins in any manner)
• Church has authority to pass judgment on and interpret Scripture for members
• Mass/Eucharist is an actual real propitiatory sacrifice offered on behalf of living and dead people
• Salvation is only found within the Catholic Church
• Sacred Tradition is authoritative in addition to Scripture

According to the Council of Trent, the above must be believed to be a Catholic. These teachings cannot be found explicitly in the 66 books of the Bible, and in some cases are explicitly contrary to the Bible, therefore I reject Catholicism and its dogma.

I am answering because the nature of the OP seems to be merely asking "why" and didn't seem like it was intended for debate. I've debated this recently and am a bit burned out on it for the time being. It seems like debating it is futile anyhow, as neither side, since the Reformation, has shown any intention of budging an inch. It is what it is, and certain people are attracted to one or the other and almost seem predisposed to it.

I would actually agree with many points on your list, so I'd appropriately be considered a heretic in some ways. But there are some on your list that I do believe in and assert, and I'll try to give a defense of them later on in the week.

I cannot see how you could agree with any of the points listed and still be a catholic. Being a catholic means accepting the official position of the catholic church on all religious matters.

You cannot disagree with any catholic church teaching and still call yourself a catholic because if you do disagree with the catholic church teaching are not a catholic.


All Praise The Ancient of Days

PS Oh I was raised a catholic so i guess 1 belong to that group. But like fewwillfindit i prefer to stand up for what i believe instead of spending my time attacking what i do not believe.