How do we know a sinner when we see one?

[Argenta]

A sinner is one who transgresses God’s law. But what is God’s law? Would any two Christians agree on exactly what this law is? Presumably, the Ten Commandments are included but what about the laws set out in Deuteronomy et al? Is wearing a garment made of two fibres a sin? Am I a sinner if I refuse to stone my unruly child? If we could agree what God’s law is we may be able to establish if all humans really are sinners.

Christianity teaches that all humans are sinners as a principle when in fact it is a question that admits of an empirical answer. Does Christianity say this because those who are free of sin do not need Jesus Christ?

If only the Ten Commandments are included it may be that some people are free of sin. The truth is we cannot know until we define god’s laws explicitly. Can we compile a comprehensive list of sins? And if we can, I wonder if anyone would truly wish to be sin-free?

Argenta

[mitty]

I have to wonder about everyone who condoned the killing of innocents (children and babies among them) in the Bible... if an army invaded your country and your own child resulted killed as collateral damage, would you argue that it's OK because it was God's will, or would you be pressing your government to bomb the life out of the army's country? How can we know which killings, biblical or not, are God-commanded and which aren't? Personal opinion about who are the good guys and who are the bad guys?

I would argue that it was the will of the invading army and it's leadership to invade and it was Gods will to allow them to do so.

We are all bad guys. Only God is Good.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Gee he doesn't seem too good to me. He makes mistakes and regrets them and then takes it out on the human population which he susposedly made. Sounds like one confused dude, eh.

[mitty]

So you also admit joining in the insults. Do you think i am here to win affection? I love my God more then anything or anyone else.

Jesus said:

Matthew 10
22 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

How True you are Jesus. Their hate affirms my belief in you even more.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I don't think anyone hates you, some of us just want to live peacefully, free from dangerous superstition.

Strange you put a white flag up with the international symbol of peace on it and your putting it up to me one who has stated that His religion is one of extreme pacifism. If everyone was like me then there would be no more wars cause the evil elites would not be able to raise armies. I follow Jesus and He tells me to love my enemies not kill them.

Nothing dangerous about my faith. You will never get any violence from a true Christian. We are as harmless as doves.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Is Jesus himself not a true Christian, then, because Jesus is going to come and kill his enemies at the end (Revelation). These enemies will include a lot of nice little old ladies who don't believe in him.

Jesus teachings to His followers are For His Followers as where all the Laws given to the Jews.

Of course Jesus Himself is not under any Law That where designed for His human followers.

So yes Jesus will bring great slaughter to the earth upon His second coming and He will be justified in doing so.

People a Humans, Jesus is God, two very different beings one needs guidance and limits and to be controlled. The Other is perfect and needs no restrictions.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I guess that makes some sort of sense, since Jesus wasn't a Christian and would probably unlikely to be one if he could be resurrected, or certainly not the fire and brimstone false-Christian type, but maybe the Salvoe-type, but most likely a peaceable Buddhist.

[Adstar]

Jesus said:

Matthew 10
22 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

How True you are Jesus. Their hate affirms my belief in you even more.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

For clarification, I do not hate you either. I do not hate you for Christ's namesake -- I'm also a Christian.

I do not recognise you as such.

Well, you're not God and you don't get to decide who or what I am.

Your free to call yourself as you wish.

Thanks for the permission.

But Christians believe God.

Right...

Your personal construct you call God does not exist.

I don't consider my view of God to be an entirely different deity in and of itself. My understanding of God is just that, an understanding. Your understanding, which is a theological construct of your own liking, might be wrong too. We believe God exists, but are you willing to tell me that you are confident that everything you believe about God is true and that God cannot be anything else other than the way you perceive Him?

You talk about the Haiti earthquake and the hundreds of thousands that died, you try to use it as an argument. But the very argument makes your "god" non existent for your supposed god allowed the earthquake to happen and 200,000 people to die and thousands to mourn their deaths.. You personal construct of a "god" would never allow such a thing.

I have no problem with Haiti, Chile, Pakistan, China or the other big earthquakes that have caused massive damage over recent years. My God is not eliminated by these things. But you "god" is shown as powerless to prevent mass deaths and save the lives of little babies crushed by falling buildings.

I'd like to think that God doesn't cause natural disasters to kill people. I'd like to say that it is just a tragic happenstance of natural phenomenon. Whether God allows it to happen is irrelevant to this specific point.

Why do you think my view of God is pathetic? Which is worse? Non-intervention? Or total control? If God has free will, and is all powerful, yet chooses to cause death and destruction on massive scales -- how can that God be loving, especially if He has the choice of making life much less painful for us mortals? If He doesn't want anyone to die and go to hell, then why did he cause the earthquake, especially if He didn't have to (assuming he had the choice of not killing).

This is very different from a God who doesn't control everyone and everything -- a God who is outside of the universe as we know it. A God that loves and doesn't kill.

I'll admit that my view of God isn't perfect, and it isn't affixed either. But I'd much rather worship and Love a benevolent deity, rather than one who takes pleasure in slaughter and death (especially when He has total control of everything and doesn't have to cause any slaughter and death).

I do pity you holding onto your pathetic construct of a "god" one that everyone knows does not exist.

I am moved by your compassion. Thank you so much for caring.

You may use whatever reason you wish to justify your position, but please do not do so because you believe that I hate you -- I do not. I do not hate you. I do not hate Jesus. And I do not hate God.

Of course you hate God. But you love your own constructed smorgasbord "god" because he is just an extension of yourself. Any half decent atheist could demolish your "god" in one post.

Thanks for searching my heart and soul so that you could reveal that unquestionable truth to all of us.

It is a great Honor for me to have the opportunity to stand up for the truth of the God of Abraham and face hate and persecution for my Love of the Truth. I know the WORD of God will not be changed by men. I have eternal victory through the Messiah Immanuel.


Acts 5
40 And they agreed with him, and when they had called for the apostles and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go. 41 So they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for His name.





All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 262:

It is a great Honor for me to have the opportunity to stand up for the truth of the God of Abraham and face hate and persecution for my Love of the Truth. I know the WORD of God will not be changed by men. I have eternal victory through the Messiah Immanuel.
>snip biblical passage<

Please explain how being persecuted shows any of your assertions to be accurate.

[cnorman18]

From Post 262:

It is a great Honor for me to have the opportunity to stand up for the truth of the God of Abraham and face hate and persecution for my Love of the Truth. I know the WORD of God will not be changed by men. I have eternal victory through the Messiah Immanuel.
>snip biblical passage<

Please explain how being persecuted shows any of your assertions to be accurate.

First, I'd like to see some evidence for Adstar being "persecuted" in the first place. If one defines disagreement as "persecution," this forum may not be a comfortable place; and personally, I'd call that definition pretty good evidence that this person has no idea of what "persecution" actually means. Some of the children of Abraham have a pretty clear idea of the meaning of that word, and it involves more than being thought a bit odd and misguided by strangers on an Internet site.

[Kuan]

I fully agree. But the minute we say something like this, they hide behind the "No True Scotsman" accusation and dismiss it out of hand.

Wait for it...wait for it...here it comes.

Yeah, cause its a logical fallacy...

That's where you are wrong. It is not a logical fallacy to say that Jesus taught non-violence, and if a professing Christian attempts to distort Christianity and make it support murder and thus commit murder, then logically they are not a true Christian. The No True Scotsman fallacy simply does not apply as a blanket statement every single time someone uses the term, "true Christian."

That is my point.

The no true scotsman argument is a logical fallacy. It does not prove you to be right in any way. Either way, why do you deem it so important to label true christians? I dont see non-theists labeling themselves in a similar manner. What makes this so important? Because of the "true." When you say true, your saying that your right and the other is wrong. Being able to use the "true christian" helps make it easier for you to get out of debates with those you dont think deserve the time.

It is not a logical fallacy to say that Jesus taught non-violence, and if a professing Christian attempts to distort Christianity and make it support murder and thus commit murder, then logically they are not a true Christian.

This is just your own interpretation. The other person probably doesnt view you as a true christian either. So which perspective is right?

[Darias]

It is a great Honor for me to have the opportunity to stand up for the truth of the God of Abraham and face hate and persecution for my Love of the Truth. I know the WORD of God will not be changed by men. I have eternal victory through the Messiah Immanuel.


Acts 5
40 And they agreed with him, and when they had called for the apostles and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go. 41 So they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for His name.





All Praise The Ancient Of Days

What does this have to do with our debate? What hate have I sent your way? None.

Yet in all my debates with you, I've received less that loving words from you. I've ignored them up until this point because I didn't want to derail the thread. So far you've told me what I believe, told me what I hate and what I don't. You've tried to define me and tell me where to go. You called me a deceiver and a pied piper of death. But, I haven't said anything about it until now.

Then you claim that you're being persecuted and hated when someone disagrees with you?

[Adstar]

From Post 262:

It is a great Honor for me to have the opportunity to stand up for the truth of the God of Abraham and face hate and persecution for my Love of the Truth. I know the WORD of God will not be changed by men. I have eternal victory through the Messiah Immanuel.
>snip biblical passage<

Please explain how being persecuted shows any of your assertions to be accurate.

Please show where i asserted that being persecuted showed any assertions i have made to be correct.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[TheParticlePerson]

From Post 262:

It is a great Honor for me to have the opportunity to stand up for the truth of the God of Abraham and face hate and persecution for my Love of the Truth. I know the WORD of God will not be changed by men. I have eternal victory through the Messiah Immanuel.
>snip biblical passage<

Please explain how being persecuted shows any of your assertions to be accurate.

Please show where i asserted that being persecuted showed any assertions i have made to be correct.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Perhaps you should first show where you're being persecuted or hated, because I don't see it here. People are disagreeing with you, some passionately, but that's to be expected on a forum made for disagreeing with each other.

[Adstar]

It is a great Honor for me to have the opportunity to stand up for the truth of the God of Abraham and face hate and persecution for my Love of the Truth. I know the WORD of God will not be changed by men. I have eternal victory through the Messiah Immanuel.


Acts 5
40 And they agreed with him, and when they had called for the apostles and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go. 41 So they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for His name.





All Praise The Ancient Of Days

What does this have to do with our debate? What hate have I sent your way? None.

Yet in all my debates with you, I've received less that loving words from you. I've ignored them up until this point because I didn't want to derail the thread. So far you've told me what I believe, told me what I hate and what I don't. You've tried to define me and tell me where to go. You called me a deceiver and a pied piper of death. But, I haven't said anything about it until now.

Then you claim that you're being persecuted and hated when someone disagrees with you?

You proclaimed first that beliefs that i hold are what caused the westboro baptist church, you where the very first person to throw mud and insinuate i was like them and indeed i was some kind of supporter. That was an back handed slap across the face. A great injustice to me. So don't come across as a poor little innocent victim. When you where the first one to start throwing mud.

Matthew 5
11 “Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days