Let's talk the concept of Hell...

[Halo_Hulk]

There is a lot of conflicting ideas and perspectives on Hell. The main question is "what was Jesus talking about when He invoked the imagery of punishment in Gehenna? What was the Jewish understanding of punishment in the afterlife during the time of Jesus? And, how does viewing Jesus' comments on Hell and the redeeming fire (as well as Paul) in the context of this position inform this theological concept?


First, Gehenna was a literal place just outside of Jerusalem. Here is the Old Testament literal imagery that clearly informs the Gospels: “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind� (Isaiah 66).

Here, we see that the people are dead, but the fire endures forever as a reminder to mankind.

The picture of Gehenna as the place of punishment or destruction of the wicked occurs frequently in the Mishnah in Kiddushin 4.14, Avot 1.5; 5.19, 20, Tosefta t.Bere****h 6.15, and Babylonian Talmud b.Rosh Hashanah 16b:7a; b.Bere****h 28b. Gehenna is considered a Purgatory-like place where the wicked go to suffer until they have atoned for their sins. It is stated that the maximum amount of time a sinner can spend in Gehenna is one year, with the exception of five people who are there for all of eternity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna

A website that I found particularly interesting was this one, for anyone who is actually interested in the topic:
http://tankrumblings.blogspot.com/20...l-gehenna.html


What is rarely noted is that Gehenna was used by the Rabbis of Jesus' day to reference the afterlife of sinners. Shammai and Hillel both used Gehenna to speak metaphorically of a place of purification of the soul for those who were not righteous enough to directly enter Paradise - the Garden of Eden. Shammai believed that only the extremenly righteous went to Paradise when they died; everyone else went to Gehenna. Most would rise to Ga Eden (Paradise) after being purified, having their sins burnt up - similar to the Catholic concept of Purgatory. Hillel taught that only the wicked went to Gehenna. Both Shammai and Hillel taught that the longest most people would stay in Gehenna was 11 months, and only the most wicked evil person would stay longer, possibly as much as 12 months. They debated as to what would happen to the especially wicked people, whether they too would be purified, annihilated, or endure the punishment of Gehenna indefinitely. They agreed though that most people, after being purified and healed by fire though, rose from the pit and were admitted to Paradise, the Garden of Eden!

According to the two dominant philosophies within Judaism for centuries before, during, and after Jesus' time, Gehenna was both purgative and remedial, as well as punitive. This would seem to account for the apparent inconsistency within the New Testament such as the 'saving fire' in 1 Cor. 3:15 by Paul, the notion of 'fearing God who can destroy the soul in Gehenna', the fire testing works in Revelation, and the eternal punishment along with temporary in Matthew.

I would also like to add that the Greek philosophical notion was an eternal hell, and an immortal soul.

Thoughts?

[De Maria]

There is a lot of conflicting ideas and perspectives on Hell. The main question is "what was Jesus talking about when He invoked the imagery of punishment in Gehenna? What was the Jewish understanding of punishment in the afterlife during the time of Jesus? And, how does viewing Jesus' comments on Hell and the redeeming fire (as well as Paul) in the context of this position inform this theological concept?....

I would also like to add that the Greek philosophical notion was an eternal hell, and an immortal soul.

Thoughts?

A great many. I won't respond to your message point by point as is my custom. But I'll propose my own understanding instead.

God is heaven to the righteous, purgatory to the imperfect believer and hell to the wicked.

I'll begin with the following. God is He in whom we live, breathe and ARE.
Acts 17:28
For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

God is THE Unquenching Fire:
Deuteronomy 4:24
For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

And He is everywhere:
Amos 9:2-3 (King James Version)

2Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:

3And though they hide themselves in the top of Carmel, I will search and take them out thence; and though they be hid from my sight in the bottom of the sea, thence will I command the serpent, and he shall bite them:

He made us to love and serve Him in this life and to be united to Him in joy in the next:
Deuteronomy 10:12
And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,

Isaiah 64:4
For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.

And He warned those who do not love Him, that there will be dire consequences for their behaviour both in this life and the next:

Deuteronomy 11:25-28 (King James Version)

25There shall no man be able to stand before you: for the LORD your God shall lay the fear of you and the dread of you upon all the land that ye shall tread upon, as he hath said unto you.

26Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;

27A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:

28And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

And this place hell, exists forever because thee punishment inflicted there lasts forever and ever:

Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

In conclusion then, those who love God will live with Him in joy for the rest of eternity. Those who do not, will live with Him in agony for the rest of eternity.

But NO ONE can escape the presence of God. He is with us ALWAYS.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[fewwillfindit]

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

And this place hell, exists forever because thee punishment inflicted there lasts forever and ever:

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

In conclusion then, those who love God will live with Him in joy for the rest of eternity. Those who do not, will live with Him in agony for the rest of eternity.

Technically, Matthew 25:41 does not say that the punishment for those on His left hand lasts forever and ever. It says the fire is everlasting. Why is it everlasting? Revelation 20:10, which you quoted, says that the beast and the false prophet will be tormented forever. Neither passage technically says that all unbelievers will experience everlasting torment.

Consider also:

And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."

Other than the beast, the false prophet, the devil and his angels, another group which ostensibly receives eternal, or at least extended punishment, are those who worship the beast and its image and receive a mark on their forehead or on their hand. I say ostensibly, because technically it says that the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. This could be poetic language protraying a reminder of sorts of their complete annihilation. Even if it is literal, compared to the countless millions of humans who have died as unbelievers, it is a miniscule number by comparison, because these would have to be alive during the Tribulation at the end of the age in order to receive the mark.

Regardless, none of these passages clearly say that all unbelievers will experience eternal torment. Consider also:

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.

...

Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.

Then there is this difficult passage:

And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, 'where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.' For everyone will be salted with fire.

Hell here, is the Greek word gehenna, which refers to the Valley of Hinnom, a continuously burning rubbish heap that was outside of the city of Jerusalem. Refuse, as well as animal and human carcasses was burned there, and the rotting mass attracted maggots at the perimeter. The fire always burned, but the maggots were always present. This passage could simply be poetic language to denote that unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire and be utterly consumed, never to live again. Notice that unbelievers are, by implication, equated with the refuse and not the maggots. The refuse is utterly consumed, but the worms live on. Whatever was thrown in was consumed by the fire, and anything at the perimeter that escaped the fire was consumed by the maggots. Nothing avoided being consumed by either the fire or the maggots, and that could very well be Jesus' point; eternal destruction is inescapable for the unbeliever. Notice that eternal destruction (used elsewhere in the New Testament), connotes something entirely different than eternal torment. Eternal destruction could mean complete annihilation; destroyed forever.

"Everyone will be salted with fire" does not nessecarily demand the existence of Purgatory. Fire is used in the Bible as a metaphor for suffering and persecution. Remember, Jesus promised that if we are His, we will suffer, because no man is greater than his Master. Salt and sacrifice (offerings) are linked in Leviticus 2:13.

Anyhow, these are some of my developing thoughts on the subject. I haven't reached a conclusion yet. My understanding of Hell is one of the doctrines I have held that I have found to be wanting after reinvestigation. It is interesting that in my research, I haven't found a single Protestant Creed that would deem this viewpoint to be heterodox by mentioning eternal torment as a required/essential belief.


P.S. Why did you remove the Catholic user group from your tags, if you don't mind me asking? If that is too personal, let me know. I'm just being nosy and curious.

[JehovahsWitness]

TRANSLATIONS

Many bible translations have translated 3 DIFFERENT words (Tartarus, Ghehenna, sheol (hebrew)/hades (greek)) indescrimately as "hell" and this has added to reader confusion.

GEHENNA

Gehenna was during the time of Jesus, the location of the city rubbish dump just outside Jerusalem. Obviously Jesus was using an illustration not suggesting the wicked would literally end up in a rubbish dump. Gehenna (translated at "hell") was simply a symbol, not of eternal torment but of death without the hope of a resurrection.

Jewish scholar David Kimhi wrote of ghenna:

• "It is a place . . . adjoining Jerusalem, and it is a loathsome place, and they throw there unclean things and carcasses. Also there was a continual fire there to burn the unclean things and the bones of the carcasses. Hence, the judgment of the wicked ones is called parabolically Gehinnom"
  
  
  
  If, as this Jewish scholar suggests, Gehenna was used for the disposal of refuse and carcasses of those deemed unworthy of burial, fire would be a suitable means of eliminating such refuse. Note: dead carcasses, not live people, are consumed in Gehenna, this place is thus NOT symbolic of eternal torment. What the fire did not consume, the maggots would thus Isaiahs words are a fitting picture of the final end (not the torment) of God’s enemies!
  
  
  
  Further reading...
  http://nephesh-chaiyah.blogspot.com/sea ... el/gehenna
  http://pastorrussell.blogspot.com/2009/ ... lfire.html
  
  IN DEPTH STUDY: Hades, Sheol, Ghenna, lake of Fire
  http://bythebible.page.tl/Hell-Fire.htm
  http://nephesh-chaiyah.blogspot.com/200 ... myths.html
  
  
  
  
  
  
  RELATED POSTS
  

  Was Jesus use of the term GEHENNA meant to convey the idea of torture?
  viewtopic.php?p=1050167#p1050167
  
  Do the maggots cause pain for the damned (MARK 9:48)?
  viewtopic.php?p=1027461#p1027461

  To learn more please go to other posts related to...
  
  HADES , GEHENNA, and ... HELLFIRE TORTURE DEBUNKED

[fewwillfindit]

ehenna was during the time of Jesus, the location of the city rubbish dump just outside Jerusalem. Obviously Jesus was using an illustration not suggesting the wicked would literally end up in a rubbish dump.

If this is addressed to me, I did not suggest that the wicked would end up in a literal rubbish dump. I was suggesting that it was symbolic of the resurrection unto death.

Gehenna (translated at "hell") was simply a symbol, not of eternal torment but of death without the hope of a resurrection.

Exactly what I was saying (or meaning).



And that right there is as close as I will ever get to JW doctrine.

[De Maria]

Technically, Matthew 25:41 does not say that the punishment for those on His left hand lasts forever and ever.

True.

It says the fire is everlasting. Why is it everlasting?

I believe it implies that the Fire is God. God is eternal. And God is a Consuming Fire.

Revelation 20:10, which you quoted, says that the beast and the false prophet will be tormented forever. Neither passage technically says that all unbelievers will experience everlasting torment.

Nor does it say that they won't.

Consider also:

And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."

Other than the beast, the false prophet, the devil and his angels, another group which ostensibly receives eternal, or at least extended punishment, are those who worship the beast and its image and receive a mark on their forehead or on their hand. I say ostensibly, because technically it says that the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. This could be poetic language protraying a reminder of sorts of their complete annihilation. Even if it is literal, compared to the countless millions of humans who have died as unbelievers, it is a miniscule number by comparison, because these would have to be alive during the Tribulation at the end of the age in order to receive the mark.

Not necessarily. The book of Revelation is not about future events alone. It is the book which tells us that Jesus Christ has returned and will return. It is a veiled description of the Mass and the warfare with evil that we enter into everytime we attend the Mass. Those who worship the beast have been marked and are being marked as we speak:
Ezekiel 9:4
And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

Regardless, none of these passages clearly say that all unbelievers will experience eternal torment. Consider also:

In your opinion. I mentioned one. You mentioned another (Rev 14:9-11).

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.

...

Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.

Then there is this difficult passage:

And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, 'where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.' For everyone will be salted with fire.

Hell here, is the Greek word gehenna, which refers to the Valley of Hinnom, a continuously burning rubbish heap that was outside of the city of Jerusalem. Refuse, as well as animal and human carcasses was burned there, and the rotting mass attracted maggots at the perimeter. The fire always burned, but the maggots were always present. This passage could simply be poetic language to denote that unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire and be utterly consumed, never to live again. Notice that unbelievers are, by implication, equated with the refuse and not the maggots. The refuse is utterly consumed, but the worms live on. Whatever was thrown in was consumed by the fire, and anything at the perimeter that escaped the fire was consumed by the maggots. Nothing avoided being consumed by either the fire or the maggots, and that could very well be Jesus' point; eternal destruction is inescapable for the unbeliever. Notice that eternal destruction (used elsewhere in the New Testament), connotes something entirely different than eternal torment. Eternal destruction could mean complete annihilation; destroyed forever.

"Everyone will be salted with fire" does not nessecarily demand the existence of Purgatory.

These references point to another realm besides heaven and hell in the afterlife:
1 Peter 3:19
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Revelation 2:10
Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

1 Corinthians 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Fire is used in the Bible as a metaphor for suffering and persecution. Remember, Jesus promised that if we are His, we will suffer, because no man is greater than his Master. Salt and sacrifice (offerings) are linked in Leviticus 2:13.

Anyhow, these are some of my developing thoughts on the subject. I haven't reached a conclusion yet. My understanding of Hell is one of the doctrines I have held that I have found to be wanting after reinvestigation. It is interesting that in my research, I haven't found a single Protestant Creed that would deem this viewpoint to be heterodox by mentioning eternal torment as a required/essential belief.


P.S. Why did you remove the Catholic user group from your tags, if you don't mind me asking?

I don't even know what that means? If a Catholic user group was ever on my tags, I was not aware. Nor do I even know how to add or remove a tag. The user group which I see on my profile on the left, was not placed there by me. It just appeared after I had a discussion with John Mark.

If that is too personal, let me know. I'm just being nosy and curious.

No problem. I hope that answers your question.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Elias Jezebelsbane]

There is a lot of conflicting ideas and perspectives on Hell. The main question is "what was Jesus talking about when He invoked the imagery of punishment in Gehenna? What was the Jewish understanding of punishment in the afterlife during the time of Jesus? And, how does viewing Jesus' comments on Hell and the redeeming fire (as well as Paul) in the context of this position inform this theological concept?


First, Gehenna was a literal place just outside of Jerusalem. Here is the Old Testament literal imagery that clearly informs the Gospels: “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind� (Isaiah 66).

Thoughts?

It also helps to understand the origins of Gehenna. I was earlier called the valley of Hinnom and Tophet ('place of burning'). It was the valley below the Grove in Jerusalem. It was dedicated to the worship of Asherah and Molech while the grove above the valley was dedicated to Ashtoreth and Baal worship while the trees selected in the grove were to honor the pagan 'El', father of the gods.

It was in that valley that the unwanted children were offered as sacrifices to Molech (hebrew for 'king' with vowel points for 'shame', ie 'shameful king/ruler'). They were generally the unwanted children concieved in the sexual worship in the grove on the high place above the valley. Those children were placed into the hands of the idol of Molech that was a bronze idol heated by coals and fire within and the children were burned alive.

Later the grove above the valley was cut down and turned into a public toilet and the trash and sewage runoff dumped and burned in this valley to desecrate this pagan holy place. Isa 57 is a good passage to describe the things going on in the grove above and the killing of the children in the valley below. It also ties the worship going on here as witchcraft conducted by debasing yourself to the shameful king of hell. Molech worship was direct Satan worship and it killed the children of the followers.



The geographical requirements for the placement of a grove were specific. Look at the picture of Hinnom provided. The grove was planted on the now white mound at the head of the valley. It was to look like the crotch of the 'earth goddess' Asherah and the foliage of the grove was the pubic hair. The worship in the grove was sexual while the children were sacrificed at the sacred 'serpents pool' in the valley below which represented the vaginal opening where the fruit of the womb was offered as sacrifice. The first born of the followers were dedicated to Molech instead of to Yah.

Also note how Yah has cursed the vegetation from growing on the old location of the grove. Life was celebrated in the grove while death was celebrated in the valley. The worship was conducted through sex acts and witchcraft dealing with spirits of the dead and ancestors.

The punishment in Gehenna was directly tied with the worship of pagan gods/goddesses and the consequences of doing so violating the 1st commandment of having no other gods before YHVH.

It also showed how the sexual activity of the groves leads to this punishment in the valley below.

With the history of the valley of Gehenna known, it is easier to see it as a representation of hell. It had a history of immorality and human sacrifice as well as witchcraft. The Jews of Yeshua's day knew that history.