The $1,000,000 challenge to Christians

[Murad]

The author of John claims that Jesus said:

Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him."
(John 7:38)

Produce the reference, where exactly was Jesus quoting?

The following do not match:
[strike]Isaiah 58:11
Isaiah 12:3
Ezekiel 47:9[/strike]

[Shermana]

The author of John claims that Jesus said:

Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him."
(John 7:38)

Ex 17:6
Nu 20:8
Prov 18:4

What was Jesus quoting? Scripture, not necessarily verbatum

I'll accept a cheque.

Behold, I will stand before you there on the rock at Horeb; and you shall strike the rock, and water will come out of it, that the people may drink. And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel.

Take the rod; and you and your brother Aaron assemble the congregation and speak to the rock before their eyes, that it may yield its water. You shall thus bring forth water for them out of the rock and let the congregation and their beasts drink.

Both of these speak of water flowing from a rock not from a believer.

The words of a mans mouth are deep waters;
The fountain of wisdom is a bubbling brook.

Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Could Jesus be speaking of wisdom given to believers by the Spirit?

Two problems: Proverbs 18 does not promise streams of divine wisdom for the believer, just compares wisdom from whatever source to flowing water. Wisdom is not of the promised fruit of the Spirit. The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

So if Jesus was referring to Prov 18, it does seem to be a bit of a shoe horn.

Thus I contend that Isaiah 44:3 truly does fill the description neatly.

Let me add it could also be being completely literal and the connection doesn't fit.

English Standard Version (2001)
For I will pour water on the thirsty land, and streams on the dry ground; I will pour my Spirit upon your offspring, and my blessing on your descendants.

So I guess I contend both.

[Murad]

The author of John claims that Jesus said:

Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him."
(John 7:38)

Produce the reference, where exactly was Jesus quoting?

The following do not match:
[strike]Isaiah 58:11
Isaiah 12:3
Ezekiel 47:9[/strike]

Ex 17:6
Nu 20:8
Prov 18:4

What was Jesus quoting? Scripture

Do you know what quoting means?

Quote

Repeat or copy out (a group of words from a text or speech), typically with an indication that one is not the original author or speaker

- he quoted a passage from the Psalms
- The stream mysterious glides beneath, Melinda quoted
- when we told her this she said, and I quote, Phooey!


Repeat a passage from (a work or author) or statement by (someone)

- the prime minister was quoted as saying that he would resist all attempts to sabotage his government
- he quoted Shakespeare, Goethe, and other poets

When you paraphrase what i say you are not quoting me. (Unless if my words are in speech marks & differentiated from the rest of the text)

, not necessarily verbatum

That is the point of this thread:

Whoever believes in me, AS THE SCRIPTURE HAS SAID, streams of living water will flow from within him."
(John 7:38)

I'll accept a cheque.

Not unless you show me where scripture has said: "streams of living water will flow from within him"

Thus I contend that Isaiah 44:3 truly does fill the description neatly.

This is Isaiah 44:3

For I will pour water on the thirsty land, and streams ON THE DRY GROUND; I will pour out my Spirit on your offspring, and my blessing on your descendants.

And this is what John said Jesus proclaimed "Scripture has said":

...streams of living water will flow from within him

How exactly does the description fit "neatly"?

[Shermana]

Yeah I retract on that, it only works when being applied metaphorically, it could be seen as totally literal, though the word "dry" doesn't mean necessarily "dry ground", but "that which is dried". Also, the first word is "The thirsty" not necessarily the "thirsty land", just "the thirsty" and the "dried out", but it lacks directly "from within him".

[JehovahsWitness]

Repeat a passage from (a work or author) or statement by (someone)

- the prime minister was quoted as saying that he would resist all attempts to sabotage his government
- he quoted Shakespeare, Goethe, and other poets

Are you trying to avoid giving my MY MONEY ?! If I say my mother said she'll come tomorrow she didn't necessarily have to say "I'll come tomorrorw" she could have actually pronounced the words "see you tommorrow", "I'll be there at 9" "I'll be round Thursday". While if I'm in a court of law I may be pressed for a direct quotation in everyday speech "she said" usually conveys the essential message imparted NOT the exact words used.

Jesus didn't say "I'm quoting word for word" indeed the word "quote" is NOT there at all, thus the passage obviously allows for paraphrase.

Scripture is full of metaphor and symbolism, I won't insult your intelligence by explaining what those things are and the part they play in the biblical narrative.

NOW GIVE ME MY MONEY!!!

[Murad]

Repeat a passage from (a work or author) or statement by (someone)

- the prime minister was quoted as saying that he would resist all attempts to sabotage his government
- he quoted Shakespeare, Goethe, and other poets

Are you trying to avoid giving my MY MONEY ?! If I say my mother said she'll come tomorrow she didn't necessarily have to say "I'll come tomorrorw" she could have actually pronounced the words "see you tommorrow", "I'll be there at 9" "I'll be round Thursday". While if I'm in a court of law I may be pressed for a direct quotation in everyday speech "she said" usually conveys the essential message imparted NOT the exact words used.

These are the 3 references you quoted:

I will stand there before you by the rock at Horeb. Strike the rock, and water will come out of it for the people to drink." So Moses did this in the sight of the elders of Israel.
(Exodus 17:6)

"Take the staff, and you and your brother Aaron gather the assembly together. Speak to that rock before their eyes and it will pour out its water. You will bring water out of the rock for the community so they and their livestock can drink."
(Numbers 20:8)

The words of a man's mouth are deep waters, but the fountain of wisdom is a bubbling brook.
(Proverbs 18:4)

As far as im concerned, NONE of these are synonymous with:

Whoever believes in me, AS THE SCRIPTURE HAS SAID, streams of living water will flow from within him."
(John 7:38)

You are just cherry picking multiple biblical verses with the word "water", that does not meet the requirement of the challenge. You quoting 3 different passages proves the point that Christians have NO IDEA where Jesus was referring to. You have to show which exact verse Jesus was referring to.

Jesus didn't say "I'm quoting word for word" indeed the word "quote" is NOT there at all, thus the passage obviously allows for paraphrase.

Jesus also did not say "I'm quoting word for word", but he did all the way through Matthew 4:1-10; what about Jesus' quotation of psalm 22 while on the cross? He does not have to say something so obvious; if he is referring to scripture, then that verse must be in the Old Testament.

Scripture is full of metaphor and symbolism, I won't insult your intelligence by explaining what those things are and the part they play in the biblical narrative.

NOW GIVE ME MY MONEY!!!

Symbolism & Metaphors are one thing, and referring to scripture & saying something out of the blue is another.


BTW didn't you read the invisible disclaimer that said it's monopoly money?

[Mdenic]

Unfortunately none of us will be able to get your million dollars because you've

asked a question that can't be proven, if however you asked the question without

emphasizing on the part about where it says "as the scripture has said" then the

question is easily answerable. Jesus isn't quoting anything when he said 'streams

of living water will flow from within him." What he is saying is this, that WHEN

you BELIEVE on him as the scripture (the old testament) has said THEN streams of

living water will flow from within you. That is to say, when you believe the

prophecies about who the messiah will be, what he will do, what he will be like,

where he will come from and so on, then streams of living water will flow from

within you.

[AdHoc]

The author of John claims that Jesus said:

Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him."
(John 7:38)

Produce the reference, where exactly was Jesus quoting?

The following do not match:
[strike]Isaiah 58:11
Isaiah 12:3
Ezekiel 47:9[/strike]

Can I see the money before answering?

[Oldfarmhouse]

Wikipedia has a listing of non-canonical books referenced in the Bible:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-canoni ... _the_Bible

So it might be in one of those. I'm sure that some of those are lost and gone forever.

Moses: "I give you the fifteen..."

[CRASH!!!]

"The TEN commandments!"

[Wootah]

The author of John claims that Jesus said:

Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him."
(John 7:38)

Produce the reference, where exactly was Jesus quoting?

The following do not match:
[strike]Isaiah 58:11
Isaiah 12:3
Ezekiel 47:9[/strike]

Here is how I interpret the sentence:

"as the scriptures talked about me whoever believes in me will experience the holy spirit."
or "Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said (a lot about me and if you believe them you will believe they talk about me), streams of living water will flow from within him."

[ThatGirlAgain]

The author of John claims that Jesus said:

Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him."
(John 7:38)

Produce the reference, where exactly was Jesus quoting?

The following do not match:
[strike]Isaiah 58:11
Isaiah 12:3
Ezekiel 47:9[/strike]

Biblegateway carries 30 different translations of the Bible in English alone. These came piecemeal from a variety of sources. But you want an exact quote even though John never claims it is an exact quote. Koine Greek, the language John was writing in, did not have quote marks. In any case, as will be seen below, the quote marks supplied in this English translation are around the words of Jesus, not any alleged scriptural quote.

Add to this that we do not even know which version of the then existing scriptures that John had in mind. There were Hebrew scriptures but probably neither the immediate audience of Jesus nor the audience of John were familiar with them. Jesus audience might very well have known the scriptures via one or more of the several Aramaic Targum paraphrases. Johns audience would likely have been most familiar with the Greek Septuagint. Looking for an exact quote is pointless even if that were intended.

Isaiah 58 fits in nicely with the flowing water idea and otherwise lines up with the teachings of Jesus as seen in the several Gospels. It could very well have this that Jesus/John was referencing.

Isaiah 58

7 Is it not to share your food with the hungry
and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter"
when you see the naked, to clothe them,
and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?
8 Then your light will break forth like the dawn,
and your healing will quickly appear;
then your righteousness will go before you,
and the glory of the LORD will be your rear guard.
9 Then you will call, and the LORD will answer;
you will cry for help, and he will say: Here am I.

If you do away with the yoke of oppression,
with the pointing finger and malicious talk,
10 and if you spend yourselves in behalf of the hungry
and satisfy the needs of the oppressed,
then your light will rise in the darkness,
and your night will become like the noonday.
11 The LORD will guide you always;
he will satisfy your needs in a sun-scorched land
and will strengthen your frame.
You will be like a well-watered garden,
like a spring whose waters never fail.

If we put the line from John in context it becomes more informative.

John 7

37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them. 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

Spirit and water are often linked in the OT. This would support that notion that Jesus/John intended a broad idea and not a literal single quote.

Adding weight to the Isaiah 58 connection is the refernce to the Comforter (or Advocate) in John 15 nand 16, which is explicity identified with the Holy Spirit. Compare this to Isaiah 58:8-9 above, referring to divine protection for the righteous.

Isaiah 58 sounds like what Jesus/John intended.


So what is the point of the OP?