Same sex marriage is not a church issue.

[Christianity in crisis?]

I believe same sex marriage is not a church issue when it comes to the law. Christians who try to ban same sex marriage are wrong, and should be consistent with the separation of church and state. BTW... I am an evangelical Christian against forms of legalized discrimination.

[Jester]

Secularization is a thought. and that all it is. Their is no act or legal laws for it. Its a thought that stands against my church defending its rights. Secularism is your thought that religious beliefs, practices and institutions lose social significance. so its your thoughts of oppression. It means that all that the Church stands for is false. Its actually your own thoughts against Christians. Its like the KKK who think blacks are worthless. Aren't we meant to be in a forum the does not blantantly discriminate. This definition is what i got from a dictionary. Shame on your racists comments Pure unethical and evil. Strike that from your comments. Shame on you. Obviously you haven't gone with the times and studyed the sciences that back up the bible. you are obviously begoting yourself on fanciful statements. Your obviously disolutioned in your own dilemma. You are obviously resorting to such low blows because your lost for words. You have no comeback worth justifying your views. This only backs up what i've been saying.

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[Faith Seeking Understandi]

thankyou.

[Faith Seeking Understandi]

Before i start i would like to ask Mr McColloch and anybody else who may of been offended, to please forgive me. I know with what you are saying that you do not perceive to what it portrays to someone like me. Sorry. Your intentions are not what it seems.

In regards to your comments about how we perceive the world through the lens of a bible. I can assure you that how i saw the truth within the bible was completely different than what you think. I have studied phycology, science and world views and non added up.

Im the only Christian in my family and I studied psychology before i studied the bible and have also seen some way out there experiences. I've seen literally the worst in people and the best which all revealed to me that none of it added up. I have meet cannibal's, murderers, people with harems, drug addicts, sport stars, and more of the seedy part of life than i would ever wish on anybody (which i'd like to add that i did not participate in) and so much more. How i saw the truth and many other people (i'm not saying all) came to an insight into the word is through reasoning within life. Nobody can come to a true faith without reasoning. I encourage all to do the same, as without it we can never defend what we believe. It would be a fairytale otherwise. To people like me there is no blind faith. Its a type of faith that became my life through reasoning.

How i perceive gay people is from a heart of thanks. I've had many a great time with my friends. I have great admiration for them as for anybody having to face such an issue within their life is like any boxer who steps up and has a fight as i do know myself. As a matter of fact this element of truth stands out as plain as day and that for anybody who ever had to face such extreme circumstances becomes all the more intelligent as one needs to think so much more deeper. But their needs to be a line drawn in where you direct your lines of thought as they can be wrong, particulary, when it comes to this matter. My heart brakes for my sister who is gay as she will not get married and also in regards to my faith. I love her so much. She to me is one of the most who i have ever loved. Anybody who picks on her better be careful. So in saying this for me to come to a faith and defend it takes real self sacrifice, more than anybody could imagine. I remember the day when i looked into her eyes when i told her how some Christians perceive gay people. It almost brings me to tears now, and i'm sure that it would do the same for her with me and how some gay people perceive me even though i have never preached to them. So for me to have a faith takes alot of sacrifice and has been strenghtened through reasoning out the bible. It is not a blinded faith. Now i could get picked on for what i have just said but hey. Thats not my problem.

Please forgive me for my outbursts. I just hope you understand what i have been saying as people like me, being a Christian is more than just words. Its my life that has passion built from passion found within the truth that i have reasoned out.

Mr McColloch,I believe that we would get along together as mates but how you would see it may be different.

[McCulloch]

Mr McColloch,I believe that we would get along together as mates but how you would see it may be different.

It is a good thing that I know you are Australian. In Canada, one's mate is someone you, well, um, well mate with. Sorry, for me, you just don't qualify.

Please forgive me for my outbursts. I just hope you understand what i have been saying as people like me, being a Christian is more than just words. Its my life that has passion built from passion found within the truth that i have reasoned out.

I respect that. No one is trying to take that away from you, unless in your view, being a Christian means being justified in enforcing your opinion on others.

[rsvp]

I believe same sex marriage is not a church issue when it comes to the law. Christians who try to ban same sex marriage are wrong, and should be consistent with the separation of church and state. BTW... I am an evangelical Christian against forms of legalized discrimination.

We must be using the term Christian very loosely now days.

[Jacob Simonsky]

It is good of you, and very bold, to take that position. My complaint with "christians" who work against same sex marriage is to do with their methods. They never come right out and state their position. The "Defense of Marriage Act" is a good example. Defense? The only threat to marriage that I've ever heard of is divorce. So this is not a good choice of names. There are too many in America who seem to think that Christian Law should prevail whether we like it or not. That there is little difference between this and the Sharia of the Muslims is lost on them apparently. Same sex marriage does not have to be allowed in churches. Civil ceremonies are a different matter. But this is logical isn't it? Logic is not something the zealot is attracted to.

[MyReality]

I fully support the fact that people have a right to marry the ones they love. No one should get in the way of this since it is there life and no one else can live it for them. I also think its rediculous the amount of hate towards people trying to live there lives the way they want.

(For the record/clarification i'm as straight as an arrow.)

Before i take up a topic to debate i always play devils advocate to try and understand the position of the person i will be debating with. I think everyone should, as it makes replying to questions or statements that much easier.

I honestly don't think that any devout christian is going to allow same sex marriage in any way shape or form. My reasoning on this is because the bible clearly states that homosexuality is wrong on all accounts. I know we live in the modern age and Christianity has become liberal and lax in its teachings compared to what it used to be, but that is what they believe and until they renounce their faith and find another that allows such acts, then it is really pointless to argue with a true christian.

(sorry but if you support homosexuality then you are not that good a christian.) I am an Atheist but if a person cannot follow the ideals of their religion then there is no point of following that religion. Personally i think it would be a benefit to find one that is less intolerant of peoples freedoms.
(sorry if i offended anyone.)

Now to state it simply, Marriage is a personal choice, not a public one.

Marriage does not affect anyone other then the ones being married.

It does not hinder the country,advancement, the economy, global trade, or traffic, etc...

Same sex marriages should be legal across the board, especially Civil Marriages,
It becomes an issue if the same sex couple wants a marriage with a religious ceremony, understandably so considering it would be blasphemy depending on the chosen religion.
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Took some definitions from this site. Only the definitions everything else is my opinion.
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/c ... 1/349.full

Civil marriage: is a legal status established through a license issued by a state government. Such status grants legal rights to, and imposes legal obligations on, the 2 married partners. No religion required.

Depending on the faith, religious marriage is considered to be a liturgical rite, a sacrament, or a solemnization of the uniting of 2 persons and is recognized by the hierarchy and adherents of that religious group. The hierarchy, clergy, and in some cases members of religious organizations, establish their own criteria and rules for who may marry within their assemblies. They are not bound by statutory definitions of marriage. Civil government entities in the United States have no authority over a religious organization's autonomy.

In the United States, couples may choose to marry in a civil ceremony, a religious ceremony, or both.

Because clergy in the United States are vested with the authority of the government for purposes of civil marriage, many people are not aware of the distinction between civil and religious marriage and assume that the 2 are inextricably linked. However, the following analysis presumes this distinction. It addresses issues related to civil marriage, leaving issues of religious marriage to religious organizations and individuals.
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[Jacob Simonsky]

Good reply. I support homosexual marriage because those people deserve to exercise their freedoms without interference not because I particularly think it's a good idea.

It is my view that religions have authority only with their own organizations and have no business telling others how to live their lives and no religion has any business at all presuming to speak for America as a whole.

God is more than capable of sorting out the sins later on.

I am not a Christian. When Christians begin behaving like Jesus I'll become one.

The Bible has authority only for those who believe in it. No Christian has the right to cram it down the throats of those who disagree with it. THIS IS WHAT FREEDOM IS.

Let the one who is without sin criticize homosexuals.... period.

[Darias]

(For the record/clarification i'm as straight as an arrow.)

Well while we're on the subject, so am I.

I honestly don't think that any devout christian is going to allow same sex marriage in any way shape or form. My reasoning on this is because the bible clearly states that homosexuality is wrong on all accounts. I know we live in the modern age and Christianity has become liberal and lax in its teachings compared to what it used to be, but that is what they believe and until they renounce their faith and find another that allows such acts, then it is really pointless to argue with a true christian.

(sorry but if you support homosexuality then you are not that good a christian.) I am an Atheist but if a person cannot follow the ideals of their religion then there is no point of following that religion. Personally i think it would be a benefit to find one that is less intolerant of peoples freedoms.
(sorry if i offended anyone.)

Sorry, but I couldn't disagree more.

1. You are confusing devotion with fundamentalism. As if the more conservative you are in your faith, and the more literal your Biblical interpretation is, the "purer" your faith is.

And every Christian who isn't a member of WBC would agree with me. Being ultra literal does not make one a "true Christian" -- and I hate even using the term because it's so subjective.

The fact is, there are many moderates, conservatives and liberals who support equality.


2. It depends what you mean by "The Bible." As you know the Bible isn't a single text written by a single author; it is an assemblage of books with various authors written over great lengths of time -- each expressing a unique cultural and theological view point.

What Moses has to say is very different than what Paul says. Most Christians don't find Levitical law appealing, and so a number of them base their anti-gay marriage stance on what Paul had to say, in light of the (New covenant). And in the context of what Paul says, where he also forbids women from speaking in church, and where he justifies slavery -- both of which have been passed off as cultural customs -- Christians of all types can also justify doing away with discrimination towards homosexuals.

And even though English translations of the Bible say "homosexuality" when Paul is speaking, he most likely referred to pedophilia and temple prostitution. Whatever the case, he certainly did not have monogamous same-sex marriage in his mind.

And even if Christians wish to interpret homosexuality as being sinful, that still doesn't mean they oppose gay marriage. Yes, there are conservative, Fundamentalist Christians, politically and socially, who support gay marriage. (see here and here).

It makes sense because, there are Christians in this world who believe that other religions spread a false message and that alcohol is bad, but they don't wish to ban either of those legally.


3. While it may be true that debating and arguing with people who are dead-set in their views seems futile, it's not pointless to debate, especially here. I mean, lots of people read the arguments. And believe me, it takes time. If a fundamentalist is against gay marriage or whatever, it may take some time for him or her to acknowledge the arguments and evidence on the other side.

I mean just 5 or 6 years ago I was a Young Earth Creationist who hated the "lies" of Evolution, was afraid of being hit-on by a guy, and strongly opposed same-sex marriage.

It took me a while to read and look over the arguments of others before I changed my mind.


4. Anti-gay isn't an ideal of Christianity. It isn't a main theme. It's not a pillar. It's not in our creed. It's a rather insignificant part of Christian history which, due to cultural taboo, etc. has come to the forefront.

But I strongly strongly oppose the idea that opposing equal rights and being anti-gay is essential to being a good Christian. What part of the Bible says that? In my view, if anything, such views are against the spirit of Christ's teachings.


5. Religions, doctrinal interpretations, and worldviews -- much like cultures and societies -- evolve. And this is a good thing.

And yes, yes to Ray Comfort, and yes to you -- I consider myself a good Christian.

[MyReality]

(For the record/clarification i'm as straight as an arrow.)

Well while we're on the subject, so am I.

I honestly don't think that any devout christian is going to allow same sex marriage in any way shape or form. My reasoning on this is because the bible clearly states that homosexuality is wrong on all accounts. I know we live in the modern age and Christianity has become liberal and lax in its teachings compared to what it used to be, but that is what they believe and until they renounce their faith and find another that allows such acts, then it is really pointless to argue with a true christian.

(sorry but if you support homosexuality then you are not that good a christian.) I am an Atheist but if a person cannot follow the ideals of their religion then there is no point of following that religion. Personally i think it would be a benefit to find one that is less intolerant of peoples freedoms.
(sorry if i offended anyone.)

Sorry, but I couldn't disagree more.

1. You are confusing devotion with fundamentalism. As if the more conservative you are in your faith, and the more literal your Biblical interpretation is, the "purer" your faith is.

And every Christian who isn't a member of WBC would agree with me. Being ultra literal does not make one a "true Christian" -- and I hate even using the term because it's so subjective.

The fact is, there are many moderates, conservatives and liberals who support equality.


2. It depends what you mean by "The Bible." As you know the Bible isn't a single text written by a single author; it is an assemblage of books with various authors written over great lengths of time -- each expressing a unique cultural and theological view point.

What Moses has to say is very different than what Paul says. Most Christians don't find Levitical law appealing, and so a number of them base their anti-gay marriage stance on what Paul had to say, in light of the (New covenant). And in the context of what Paul says, where he also forbids women from speaking in church, and where he justifies slavery -- both of which have been passed off as cultural customs -- Christians of all types can also justify doing away with discrimination towards homosexuals.

And even though English translations of the Bible say "homosexuality" when Paul is speaking, he most likely referred to pedophilia and temple prostitution. Whatever the case, he certainly did not have monogamous same-sex marriage in his mind.

And even if Christians wish to interpret homosexuality as being sinful, that still doesn't mean they oppose gay marriage. Yes, there are conservative, Fundamentalist Christians, politically and socially, who support gay marriage. (see here and here).

It makes sense because, there are Christians in this world who believe that other religions spread a false message and that alcohol is bad, but they don't wish to ban either of those legally.


3. While it may be true that debating and arguing with people who are dead-set in their views seems futile, it's not pointless to debate, especially here. I mean, lots of people read the arguments. And believe me, it takes time. If a fundamentalist is against gay marriage or whatever, it may take some time for him or her to acknowledge the arguments and evidence on the other side.

I mean just 5 or 6 years ago I was a Young Earth Creationist who hated the "lies" of Evolution, was afraid of being hit-on by a guy, and strongly opposed same-sex marriage.

It took me a while to read and look over the arguments of others before I changed my mind.


4. Anti-gay isn't an ideal of Christianity. It isn't a main theme. It's not a pillar. It's not in our creed. It's a rather insignificant part of Christian history which, due to cultural taboo, etc. has come to the forefront.

But I strongly strongly oppose the idea that opposing equal rights and being anti-gay is essential to being a good Christian. What part of the Bible says that? In my view, if anything, such views are against the spirit of Christ's teachings.


5. Religions, doctrinal interpretations, and worldviews -- much like cultures and societies -- evolve. And this is a good thing.

And yes, yes to Ray Comfort, and yes to you -- I consider myself a good Christian.

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I will start off from a passage from the bible.

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. -- Leviticus 18:22

If a man has sex with another man, kill them both. Deuteronomy 20:13

I do not think it can be any clearer then this. I even read two pages before and after i found these references to make sure it was in context. Its pretty straight forward. This is suppose to be a divine book created from many books to be used for all christianity and its branches. This is clear enough to know it does not mean pedophilia and temple prostitution.

By not opposing gay marriage is a direct contradiction and outright refusal to follow
Deuteronomy 20:13 and the very least turning a blind eye to Leviticus 18:22. I only brought these two because of how clear it is and there were to many others.

Also by thinking that gay marriages is a right and should be allowed, clearly makes a bad christian, but it also makes him/her a good person.

It makes sense because, there are Christians in this world who believe that other religions spread a false message and that alcohol is bad, but they don't wish to ban either of those legally.

......I got the impression that all christians believe other religions are false,if they did not then again that would make them terrible christians..... and alcohol was banned during prohibition and failed miserably. If they could make both these come true they would, it's just that they can't.

I mean just 5 or 6 years ago I was a Young Earth Creationist who hated the "lies" of Evolution, was afraid of being hit-on by a guy, and strongly opposed same-sex marriage.

It took me a while to read and look over the arguments of others before I changed my mind.

That's great! As long as one can keep an open mind then there will always be room to grow.

But I strongly strongly oppose the idea that opposing equal rights and being anti-gay is essential to being a good Christian. What part of the Bible says that? In my view, if anything, such views are against the spirit of Christ's teachings.

Scriptures are posted above. Not following the laws/rules of ones religion does in fact make a less then ideal follower. Its the same in all of society, if one does not follow the laws/rules of ones workplace then it makes you a bad employee. Christ is God and vice versa, Christ never stated that what was said in the past is now useless.

Religions, doctrinal interpretations, and worldviews -- much like cultures and societies -- evolve. And this is a good thing.

.....Then whats the point in believing the bible if the opinions of teachings change every few years? I personally think its irresponsible to make a divine book in such an incompetent manner that people cannot derive clear and precise information from its scriptures.