God and the Midianites

[Angel]

Questions for debate:

1. Did God want the Midianites dead because of His vengeance ONLY (as Autodidact stated)?


Some views already offered to this question...

btw, what was the reason the Bible gives for all this slaughter? Vengeance.
"The LORD said to Moses, 2 “Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites."

So I think what we learn from these passages is that God is vengeful. Also, everyone born into a tribe is responsible for the actions of that tribe, however long before they themselves were born.

Link to comment..
Post #3 t here to see where Autodidact makes this claim).

My view is that God's vengeance was involved but ALSO the WRONG acts of the Midianites. I defended this view here in post #3, 5, and 13.

What say everyone else?

[Autodidact]

Questions for debate:

1. Did God want the Midianites dead because of His vengeance ONLY (as Autodidact stated)?


Some views already offered to this question...

btw, what was the reason the Bible gives for all this slaughter? Vengeance.
"The LORD said to Moses, 2 “Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites."

So I think what we learn from these passages is that God is vengeful. Also, everyone born into a tribe is responsible for the actions of that tribe, however long before they themselves were born.

Link to comment..
Post #3 t here to see where Autodidact makes this claim).

My view is that God's vengeance was involved but ALSO the WRONG acts of the Midianites. I defended this view here in post #3, 5, and 13.

What say everyone else?

And let's not forget either what the vengeance was for: Idolatry, that is, freedom of religion, and sexual immorality, that is, breaking the ancient purity taboos of the Hebrew tribes. That's it. In retaliation, God commands His soldiers to kill all the Midianites, of any sex or age, including the babies and children. Surely you wouldn't call that justice, would you? A just judge would at least try to sort out innocent from the guilty. And certainly, neither of these actions deserves the death penalty, do they?

[Angel]

Questions for debate:

1. Did God want the Midianites dead because of His vengeance ONLY (as Autodidact stated)?


Some views already offered to this question...

btw, what was the reason the Bible gives for all this slaughter? Vengeance.
"The LORD said to Moses, 2 “Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites."

So I think what we learn from these passages is that God is vengeful. Also, everyone born into a tribe is responsible for the actions of that tribe, however long before they themselves were born.

Link to comment..
Post #3 t here to see where Autodidact makes this claim).

My view is that God's vengeance was involved but ALSO the WRONG acts of the Midianites. I defended this view here in post #3, 5, and 13.

What say everyone else?

And let's not forget either what the vengeance was for: Idolatry, that is, freedom of religion, and sexual immorality, that is, breaking the ancient purity taboos of the Hebrew tribes. That's it. In retaliation, God commands His soldiers to kill all the Midianites, of any sex or age, including the babies and children. Surely you wouldn't call that justice, would you? A just judge would at least try to sort out innocent from the guilty. And certainly, neither of these actions deserves the death penalty, do they?

Please do NOT attempt to change the subject of the topic post. You SPECIFICALLY made the claim that God ordered for the Midianites to be killed out of His vengeance ONLY. This thread is not about if vengeance is right or who was killed, it's about reason(s) that God had an issue with the Midianites. You wanted to make it appear as if there was NO wrongdoing whatsoever involved, and I called you out on your pattern of leaving out details.

Please retract your statement and stick to the subject of the OP, which is about if God killed for ONLY vengeance or not. If you want to bring up anything else, then FIRST retract your claims regarding the OP and start another thread. I'll participate if I'm up to it but then again I have other threads that I'd rather focus on, like baby killing.

[Autodidact]

Questions for debate:

1. Did God want the Midianites dead because of His vengeance ONLY (as Autodidact stated)?


Some views already offered to this question...

btw, what was the reason the Bible gives for all this slaughter? Vengeance.
"The LORD said to Moses, 2 “Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites."

So I think what we learn from these passages is that God is vengeful. Also, everyone born into a tribe is responsible for the actions of that tribe, however long before they themselves were born.

Link to comment..
Post #3 t here to see where Autodidact makes this claim).

My view is that God's vengeance was involved but ALSO the WRONG acts of the Midianites. I defended this view here in post #3, 5, and 13.

What say everyone else?

And let's not forget either what the vengeance was for: Idolatry, that is, freedom of religion, and sexual immorality, that is, breaking the ancient purity taboos of the Hebrew tribes. That's it. In retaliation, God commands His soldiers to kill all the Midianites, of any sex or age, including the babies and children. Surely you wouldn't call that justice, would you? A just judge would at least try to sort out innocent from the guilty. And certainly, neither of these actions deserves the death penalty, do they?

Please do NOT attempt to change the subject of the topic post. You SPECIFICALLY made the claim that God ordered for the Midianites to be killed out of His vengeance ONLY. This thread is not about if vengeance is right or who was killed, it's about reason(s) that God had an issue with the Midianites. You wanted to make it appear as if there was NO wrongdoing whatsoever involved, and I called you out on your pattern of leaving out details.

The verse in question says exactly why the Israelites are to kill the Midianites: for vengeance. You are the one who wants to talk about what the vengeance was for, not me. I stand by my answer, the one given in the Bible, which we are to take as true in this forum: vengeance.

Now, what is your position on vengeance in general: is it a good thing, or a bad thing? What about vengeance against babies for things their parents did: right or wrong, in your book?

Please retract your statement and stick to the subject of the OP, which is about if God killed for ONLY vengeance or not. If you want to bring up anything else, then FIRST retract your claims regarding the OP and start another thread. I'll participate if I'm up to it but then again I have other threads that I'd rather focus on, like baby killing.

No, I stand by my answer. God told the Hebrews to take vengeance on the Midianites, and then He told them how: by killing each and every one of them, excepting only virgin girls. You are now focusing on the reason for the vengeance, I imagine in an attempt to justify it as righteous vengeance? I don't know. My point is, righteous or not (obviously I think not) that's what it is: vengeance.

[Angel]

And let's not forget either what the vengeance was for: Idolatry, that is, freedom of religion, and sexual immorality, that is, breaking the ancient purity taboos of the Hebrew tribes. That's it. In retaliation, God commands His soldiers to kill all the Midianites, of any sex or age, including the babies and children. Surely you wouldn't call that justice, would you? A just judge would at least try to sort out innocent from the guilty. And certainly, neither of these actions deserves the death penalty, do they?

Please do NOT attempt to change the subject of the topic post. You SPECIFICALLY made the claim that God ordered for the Midianites to be killed out of His vengeance ONLY. This thread is not about if vengeance is right or who was killed, it's about reason(s) that God had an issue with the Midianites. You wanted to make it appear as if there was NO wrongdoing whatsoever involved, and I called you out on your pattern of leaving out details.

The verse in question says exactly why the Israelites are to kill the Midianites: for vengeance. You are the one who wants to talk about what the vengeance was for, not me. I stand by my answer, the one given in the Bible, which we are to take as true in this forum: vengeance.

Which verse(s) are you referring to? Are you reading ALL of the passages that involve God expressing His dislike towards the Midianites and why or are you just picking and choosing and leaving out the verses that disagree with what YOU wanted to accuse God of?

Please meditate on these passages below which SPECIFICALLY talks about the issue of the OP:

Numbers 25:16-18
16 The LORD said to Moses, 17 Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them.
18 They treated you as enemies when they deceived you in the Peor incident involving their sister Kozbi, the daughter of a Midianite leader, the woman who was killed when the plague came as a result of that incident.

Moses elaborates on this Peor incident in Numbers 31:15-16
(Moses speaking in the context of Israel's attack on the Midianites)
15 Have you allowed all the women to live? he asked them. 16 They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the LORD in the Peor incident , so that a plague struck the LORD's people.

What was the incident in Peor? Idolatry and sexual immorality, esp. with one of the Midianite leader's daugther, Kozbi or Cozbi. Numbers chapter 25 explains:
Numbers 25:1-3
1 While Israel was staying in Shittim, the men began to indulge in sexual immorality with Moabite women, 2 who invited them to the sacrifices to their gods. The people ate the sacrificial meal and bowed down before these gods. 3 So Israel yoked themselves to the Baal of Peor. And the LORD’s anger burned against them.

These verses mention God wanting the Midianites killed and WHY which I've taken the pleasure to put in bold font. Just to make it official... Do any of these verses talk about WHY God wanted the Israelites killed? I already explained myself but I want to make sure YOU don't duck and dodge and CLEARLY see what these verses say.

Now, what is your position on vengeance in general: is it a good thing, or a bad thing? What about vengeance against babies for things their parents did: right or wrong, in your book?

Not part of the topic.
Start another thread, and I will probably NOT participate in it for various reasons which I'll keep to myself to avoid ad-hominems.

Please retract your statement and stick to the subject of the OP, which is about if God killed for ONLY vengeance or not. If you want to bring up anything else, then FIRST retract your claims regarding the OP and start another thread. I'll participate if I'm up to it but then again I have other threads that I'd rather focus on, like baby killing.

No, I stand by my answer. God told the Hebrews to take vengeance on the Midianites, and then He told them how: by killing each and every one of them, excepting only virgin girls. You are now focusing on the reason for the vengeance, I imagine in an attempt to justify it as righteous vengeance? I don't know. My point is, righteous or not (obviously I think not) that's what it is: vengeance.

What this OP is about is the reasons why God wanted the Midianites killed. Remember what you said...

btw, what was the reason the Bible gives for all this slaughter? Vengeance.

If you read ALL of the relevant passages which I've quoted in this post, you'll see that Israel engaged in IDOLATRY and SEXUAL IMMORALITY with prostitutes in Peor. BOTH of these acts are IMMORAL based on the Bible so WRONGDOING was involved as well as God's vengeance, it was NOT ONLY vengeance.

[Angel]

1. Repeated unsubstantiated claims here so far:
God ordered the Midianites to be slaughtered because of vengeance ONLY.

btw, what was the reason the Bible gives for all this slaughter? Vengeance.
"The LORD said to Moses, 2 “Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites."

So I think what we learn from these passages is that God is vengeful.

Source
Post #3 here to see where Autodidact makes this claim). The claims are also made here or defended here on this thread, as well.


2. The REPEATED ignoring of evidence, mainly the verses that I've posted in the previous post which directly contradicts Autodidact's 'claim'.

3. Going off topic

[Autodidact]

And let's not forget either what the vengeance was for: Idolatry, that is, freedom of religion, and sexual immorality, that is, breaking the ancient purity taboos of the Hebrew tribes. That's it. In retaliation, God commands His soldiers to kill all the Midianites, of any sex or age, including the babies and children. Surely you wouldn't call that justice, would you? A just judge would at least try to sort out innocent from the guilty. And certainly, neither of these actions deserves the death penalty, do they?

Please do NOT attempt to change the subject of the topic post. You SPECIFICALLY made the claim that God ordered for the Midianites to be killed out of His vengeance ONLY. This thread is not about if vengeance is right or who was killed, it's about reason(s) that God had an issue with the Midianites. You wanted to make it appear as if there was NO wrongdoing whatsoever involved, and I called you out on your pattern of leaving out details.

1. You have just cited all the reasons why God wanted to take vengeance on the Midianites--what the vengeance was against.
2. I did not say vengeance was the ONLY reason. You added that. Vengeance was clearly the reason, as the verse says.
3. Atheists find it quite easy to answer questions such as I asked you. I find that in the context of this sort of discussion, Christians often have great difficulty with them. I can see why you would prefer not to answer it.

btw, I'm on my way out of town for a week. Nice talking with you--see you later.
The verse in question says exactly why the Israelites are to kill the Midianites: for vengeance. You are the one who wants to talk about what the vengeance was for, not me. I stand by my answer, the one given in the Bible, which we are to take as true in this forum: vengeance.

Which verse(s) are you referring to? Are you reading ALL of the passages that involve God expressing His dislike towards the Midianites and why or are you just picking and choosing and leaving out the verses that disagree with what YOU wanted to accuse God of?

Please meditate on these passages below which SPECIFICALLY talks about the issue of the OP:

Numbers 25:16-18
16 The LORD said to Moses, 17 Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them.
18 They treated you as enemies when they deceived you in the Peor incident involving their sister Kozbi, the daughter of a Midianite leader, the woman who was killed when the plague came as a result of that incident.

Moses elaborates on this Peor incident in Numbers 31:15-16
(Moses speaking in the context of Israel's attack on the Midianites)
15 Have you allowed all the women to live? he asked them. 16 They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the LORD in the Peor incident , so that a plague struck the LORD's people.

What was the incident in Peor? Idolatry and sexual immorality, esp. with one of the Midianite leader's daugther, Kozbi or Cozbi. Numbers chapter 25 explains:
Numbers 25:1-3
1 While Israel was staying in Shittim, the men began to indulge in sexual immorality with Moabite women, 2 who invited them to the sacrifices to their gods. The people ate the sacrificial meal and bowed down before these gods. 3 So Israel yoked themselves to the Baal of Peor. And the LORD’s anger burned against them.

These verses mention God wanting the Midianites killed and WHY which I've taken the pleasure to put in bold font. Just to make it official... Do any of these verses talk about WHY God wanted the Israelites killed? I already explained myself but I want to make sure YOU don't duck and dodge and CLEARLY see what these verses say.

Now, what is your position on vengeance in general: is it a good thing, or a bad thing? What about vengeance against babies for things their parents did: right or wrong, in your book?

Not part of the topic.
Start another thread, and I will probably NOT participate in it for various reasons which I'll keep to myself to avoid ad-hominems.

Please retract your statement and stick to the subject of the OP, which is about if God killed for ONLY vengeance or not. If you want to bring up anything else, then FIRST retract your claims regarding the OP and start another thread. I'll participate if I'm up to it but then again I have other threads that I'd rather focus on, like baby killing.

No, I stand by my answer. God told the Hebrews to take vengeance on the Midianites, and then He told them how: by killing each and every one of them, excepting only virgin girls. You are now focusing on the reason for the vengeance, I imagine in an attempt to justify it as righteous vengeance? I don't know. My point is, righteous or not (obviously I think not) that's what it is: vengeance.

What this OP is about is the reasons why God wanted the Midianites killed. Remember what you said...

btw, what was the reason the Bible gives for all this slaughter? Vengeance.

If you read ALL of the relevant passages which I've quoted in this post, you'll see that Israel engaged in IDOLATRY and SEXUAL IMMORALITY with prostitutes in Peor. BOTH of these acts are IMMORAL based on the Bible so WRONGDOING was involved as well as God's vengeance, it was NOT ONLY vengeance.

[Woland]

If you read ALL of the relevant passages which I've quoted in this post, you'll see that Israel engaged in IDOLATRY and SEXUAL IMMORALITY with prostitutes in Peor. BOTH of these acts are IMMORAL based on the Bible so WRONGDOING was involved as well as God's vengeance, it was NOT ONLY vengeance.

Let's summarize. Feel free to correct me or to add anything anywhere.

A few people didn't praise Yahweh, but praised other "false" gods for some reason -which is already strange (read: incoherent), since presumably if they knew their gods were false and that only Yahweh existed they wouldn't be idolaters. If ancient humans were THAT stupid then they can hardly be held accountable for their actions, because "free will" is utterly meaningless in the face of someone who is dumb enough to worship gods he knows don't exist when it will anger the one true "loving" bipolar maniac in the sky which he knows exists.

And if they didn't know that, then Yahweh seems more than a bit incompetent and negligent.

And cruel.

So,
1.Yahweh was upset because didn't get his dose of praise from a random tribe in the desert. Pettiness.

And,
2. Some people had sex in ways and contexts that aren't compatible with Yahweh's orders, and that upset him. Control-freakedness.

3. Therefore Yahweh took his vengeance on an entire population. Cruelty. But he still somehow deserves to be called good and loving and just, or so claim his worshipers.

What makes you think that the vengeance Autodidact was speaking of didn't take into consideration the reasons you apparently consider to morally justify Yahweh's genocidal vengeance? He just said it was vengance, which it was. Was it vengeance for anything? Well, sure, depending on who you consider the offended party and how exactly they were offended in a way that requires mass graves.

Mafia bosses exert vengeance on those who don't bow to them too, you know.
And we don't see many people without a gun at their heads calling them "good" and "loving", do we?

This topic seems to be nothing but a distraction.

As far as I can discern, nowhere did Autodidact imply that Yahweh and his groupies wouldn't have any excuses at the ready for his vengeful and cruel orders and actions. He has stated as much repeatedly.

Wouldn't it annoy you if you told someone that "the mafia boss killed the baker's children for vengeance" and JUST after you readily acknowledged the "reasons" for his vengeance, someone kept telling you the same irrelevant things overassertively:

Please do NOT attempt to change the subject of the topic post. You SPECIFICALLY made the claim that the maffia boss ordered for the children of the baker who didn't pay his protection money to be killed out of His vengeance ONLY. This thread is not about if vengeance is right or who was killed, it's about reason(s) that the maffia boss had an issue with the children. You wanted to make it appear as if there was NO wrongdoing whatsoever involved, and I called you out on your pattern of leaving out details.

I would think so.

Does anyone care WHY the maffia boss wanted these children killed?

Unless your view is the equivalent of saying that the baker's "misdeeds" (highly arguable word of course, just like for praising other gods and having sex, big deal) somehow (tell me how and why) become the children's moral responsibility despite there being an "omnipotent and all-wise and loving" god watching the whole thing, your god's vengeance is nothing but a demonstration of his detestable, cruel and vain personality.

-Woland

[Strider324]

1. Repeated unsubstantiated claims here so far:
God ordered the Midianites to be slaughtered because of vengeance ONLY.

btw, what was the reason the Bible gives for all this slaughter? Vengeance.
"The LORD said to Moses, 2 “Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites."

So I think what we learn from these passages is that God is vengeful.

Source
Post #3 here to see where Autodidact makes this claim). The claims are also made here or defended here on this thread, as well.


2. The REPEATED ignoring of evidence, mainly the verses that I've posted in the previous post which directly contradicts Autodidact's 'claim'.

3. Going off topic

There seems to be some semantic tomfoolery going on here. I have no other way of parsing your pedantry.

Yahweh wanted Vengeance.

Why??

For ALL the reasons you would like to submit - the wrongdoing, the disobedience, the immorality - WHATEVER.

None of that helps your position or negates the fact that VENGEANCE was the vehicle employed to AVENGE these naughty things the evil Midianite children must have done in this vain deity's eyes to merit slaughter.

You lost this argument days ago. Cowboy up and move forward if intellectual integrity is important to you. This became painful to watch long ago.

[Angel]

If you read ALL of the relevant passages which I've quoted in this post, you'll see that Israel engaged in IDOLATRY and SEXUAL IMMORALITY with prostitutes in Peor. BOTH of these acts are IMMORAL based on the Bible so WRONGDOING was involved as well as God's vengeance, it was NOT ONLY vengeance.

Let's summarize. Feel free to correct me or to add anything anywhere.

A few people didn't praise Yahweh, but praised other "false" gods for some reason -which is already strange (read: incoherent), since presumably if they knew their gods were false and that only Yahweh existed they wouldn't be idolaters. If ancient humans were THAT stupid then they can hardly be held accountable for their actions, because "free will" is utterly meaningless in the face of someone who is dumb enough to worship gods he knows don't exist when it will anger the one true "loving" bipolar maniac in the sky which he knows exists.

And if they didn't know that, then Yahweh seems more than a bit incompetent and negligent.

And cruel.

I don't agree with you completely because after Israel left Egypt they manufactured a golden calf and worshipped it as a god despite knowing about the God of their forefathers - Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. That sounds to me more of not caring if God is true and instead just putting what you want to worship and calling it a god. It's a matter of the will more than stupidity. So that's one case example.

The definition of 'idolatry' in the biblical context is worshipping idols or gods other than the God of Israel. It doesn't matter whether it's done in ignorance or not, that is still the standard. You may not agree with the moral standard but that doesn't mean that it wasn't violated. At best, we can say the Midianites violated a standard of a selfish control freak and all the other adjectives you've used in your post.

So,
1.Yahweh was upset because didn't get his dose of praise from a random tribe in the desert. Pettiness.

Not completely. God was upset because the Midianites led HIS people, Israel, into worshipping Baal, the Midianite's god.

And,
2. Some people had sex in ways and contexts that aren't compatible with Yahweh's orders, and that upset him. Control-freakedness.

3. Therefore Yahweh took his vengeance on an entire population. Cruelty. But he still somehow deserves to be called good and loving and just, or so claim his worshipers.

Sexual immorality as defined by the Bible is still a moral standard whether you like it or not. So going by the moral standard, teh Midianites were in the wrong. Keep in mind, I'm not arguing for if that moral standard is 'objectively' right, I'm just saying according to the Bible it is a moral standard and what the Midianites did was violate it.

What makes you think that the vengeance Autodidact was speaking of didn't take into consideration the reasons you apparently consider to morally justify Yahweh's genocidal vengeance? He just said it was vengance, which it was. Was it vengeance for anything? Well, sure, depending on who you consider the offended party and how exactly they were offended in a way that requires mass graves.

Please read Numbers 25:16-18 which I've also quoted in post #5. That passage mentions that first time God mentions to kill the Midianites. There's no mention of 'vengeance' in those passages and vengeance is mentioned later in Numbers ch. 31. To say that God wanted the Midianites dead for ONLY vengeance would have to take ignoring Numbers 25:16-18 along with Numbers 31:15-16.

This debate that me and Autodidact have been has involved some technicalities but I'm willing to go there just to expose when someone has a practice of leaving out details just to make a picture seem worse than what it is. Reading Autodidact's post, you'd be left with thinking God just wanted vengeance just for the sake of vengeance. You wouldn't have known that the Midianites led Israel into idolatry and sexual immorality. You would not have known that the Midianite leaders conspired with Balaam to lure Israel into these immoral acts (Numbers 15:16). Perhaps, that would be a valid point if Autodidact was only referring to the children who died in that attack, but no, Autodidact is referring to the entire slaughter.

Mafia bosses exert vengeance on those who don't bow to them too, you know.
And we don't see many people without a gun at their heads calling them "good" and "loving", do we?

This topic seems to be nothing but a distraction.

If it's a distraction to you then you don't have to post here again. I'm well within the forum rules of asking this question. The question you just asked is beyond the scope of the OP and can get to become a distraction if you keep asking it. I repeat, I did NOT open this thread to debate about if vengeance is right or wrong. I open this thread to discuss ALL of the reasons involved for why God wanted the Midianites dead.

As far as I can discern, nowhere did Autodidact imply that Yahweh and his groupies wouldn't have any excuses at the ready for his vengeful and cruel orders and actions. He has stated as much repeatedly.

Refer to post #1 of this thread. Autodidact only mentioned 'vengeance'. I'm the one that had to expose his leaving out of details for making it sound like it was vengeance just for the sake of vengeance.

Wouldn't it annoy you if you told someone that "the mafia boss killed the baker's children for vengeance" and JUST after you readily acknowledged the "reasons" for his vengeance, someone kept telling you the same irrelevant things overassertively:

Please do NOT attempt to change the subject of the topic post. You SPECIFICALLY made the claim that the maffia boss ordered for the children of the baker who didn't pay his protection money to be killed out of His vengeance ONLY. This thread is not about if vengeance is right or who was killed, it's about reason(s) that the maffia boss had an issue with the children. You wanted to make it appear as if there was NO wrongdoing whatsoever involved, and I called you out on your pattern of leaving out details.

I would think so.

Does anyone care WHY the maffia boss wanted these children killed?

Yes. I would also say vengeance would be a WHY answer, as well. Also, there's a difference between vengeance just for the sake vengeance, and vengeance supplemented with reasons involving WRONGdoings.

Unless your view is the equivalent of saying that the baker's "misdeeds" (highly arguable word of course, just like for praising other gods and having sex, big deal) somehow (tell me how and why) become the children's moral responsibility despite there being an "omnipotent and all-wise and loving" god watching the whole thing, your god's vengeance is nothing but a demonstration of his detestable, cruel and vain personality.

-Woland

I'm not here to argue if God's actions were right, I'm just here to debate ALL of God's reasons for wanting the Midianites dead.. we can even say the kids don't apply, if you'd like.