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Question for debate:
How can we have an economy that benefits everyone instead of a few people who benefit at the expense of others?
David Korten's Take on #OccupyWallStreet
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David Korten's Take on #OccupyWallStreet
Post #1"Oh, you can''t get through seminary and come out believing in God!"
current pastor who is a closet atheist
quoted by Daniel Dennett.
current pastor who is a closet atheist
quoted by Daniel Dennett.
Post #2
This guy's even more incohrent than the wall street protestors themselves. Neither he, nor them, actually know what the purpose of the 'protests' are. Or they are just verbally incapable of articulating their position. It could be either one, take your pick. The protests are a total joke, and going off what the people at these protests are saying, the protestors are total morons. They're out their screaming, but they have no idea what it is they're screaming about. It's actually kinda funny.
What's even more funny is David Korten's complete ignorance of economics. I unfortunately watched the video and he presented no economic argument or reasoning. He just made claims about how Wall Street and Corporations are responsible for this crisis and went on to further ramble about irrelevant nonsense. Recessions always occur, and people like David Korten always try to blow them out of proportion in order to utilize it for their political agenda. Recessions are part of the business cycle, and what causes them are shocks to various indicators, such as supply, consumption and production. But for the most parts, it's a shock to the supply of money that causes economic contraction. To bad David Korten didn't take even a high school level macroeconomics class cause he might be aware of this .
What's even more funny is David Korten's complete ignorance of economics. I unfortunately watched the video and he presented no economic argument or reasoning. He just made claims about how Wall Street and Corporations are responsible for this crisis and went on to further ramble about irrelevant nonsense. Recessions always occur, and people like David Korten always try to blow them out of proportion in order to utilize it for their political agenda. Recessions are part of the business cycle, and what causes them are shocks to various indicators, such as supply, consumption and production. But for the most parts, it's a shock to the supply of money that causes economic contraction. To bad David Korten didn't take even a high school level macroeconomics class cause he might be aware of this .
The question already contains a falsehood. Can you rationally explain how a few people have benefited at the expense of other people, because I don't understand. In reality, Question Everything, when someone benefits we all benefit and when someone suffers we all suffer. I know people like you believe and cherish the idea that wealthy people earned their wealth at the expense of others and I know no amount of reasoning will be able to change that view, but the actual answer to your question is Supply Side Economics. If you actually did care about people being manipulated and taken advantage of you'd be on the right side of the issue, since government intervention does exactly the thing you have a problem with. Everytime the government intervenes, whether it be in the form of a tax or a regulatory statute, one party is benefited while another party is harmed.Question Everything wrote:How can we have an economy that benefits everyone instead of a few people who benefit at the expense of others?
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Re: David Korten's Take on #OccupyWallStreet
Post #3Sure.Question Everything wrote:
Question for debate:
How can we have an economy that benefits everyone instead of a few people who benefit at the expense of others?
It's called capitalism.
Unless you think you live a more restricted, less privileged and more deprived existence than your grandparents did?
Dunno about you, but if the world were still the way it was in MY grandparent's day, I wouldn't even be here, never mind typing on my own computer, in my own home. I'd have died when I contracted Scarlet Fever. Or I'd have caught polio from my cousin. Or not survived the birth of my oldest son.
I certainly would not have survived through the sepsis that nearly nailed me a couple of months ago.
Benefits?
When even the poorest of Americans have things the wealthiest of our grandparents couldn't even imagine?
As to "Occupy Wall Street,"
When they have a message that does NOT go:
"What do we want?"
"We're not sure!"
"When do we want it?"
"Right now!"
and when they leave the places they occupy as clean as they found them (the way the Tea Party folks do)
and when they have the same record for non-violence and the same arrest record (0) Tea Partiers do.
When they do NOT defecate on cars in public.
When they do NOT behave as if serious protesting was more about Woodstock than Wall Street.
SOME of those messages are good ones. I"d be more impressed if any of 'em could remember the good messages long enough to paint 'em on a sign.
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Post #4
From Post 2:
I leave the remainder of the post as the Fox News inspired rant it so obviously is.
I caution against accusations of incoherency, lest one expose their own inability to cohere.WinePusher wrote: This guy's even more incohrent than the wall street protestors themselves.
...
I propose it's you that's the moron.WinePusher wrote: ...the protestors are total morons.
I leave the remainder of the post as the Fox News inspired rant it so obviously is.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin
-Punkinhead Martin
Post #5
lol. So no commentary on the topic? No rebuttal to my points about the business cycle or mutually beneficial economic actions? I doubt anybody actually expected an intelligent response out of you, JoeyKnothead. Producing one liners that violate just about nearly every single english grammatical rule seems to be the only thing you're capable of doing. The fact that you would think that a description of the business cycle is a similar to a Fox News rant just shows how you know absolutely nothing about the topic. Why do you post in the Politics and Religion section if you know nothing about Politics or Current Affairs? Have you actually read any OP-ED's on the Wall Street Protests or seen people at the protests speak? I think this is a very good quote:JoeyKnothead wrote:From Post 2:
I caution against accusations of incoherency, lest one expose their own inability to cohere.WinePusher wrote: This guy's even more incohrent than the wall street protestors themselves.
...
I propose it's you that's the moron.WinePusher wrote: ...the protestors are total morons.
I leave the remainder of the post as the Fox News inspired rant it so obviously is.
If you have a limited education on a specific topic, which you admit you do, then don't try to debate it. Well actually, you're not even trying to debate the topic in this thread, you're just trying to derail it. But anyways, if you don't understand Politics, Economics or Current Events, which you clearly don't, then don't post in threads devoted to the subject. I know very little about Physics and am not motivated to learn more about it, so I probably wouldn't enter into a thread that is devoted to the topic. But if I did, I would only enter in if I had a fair amount of sources supporting my contention and I would defer contestable points to users who have demonstrated knowledge in Physics, such as AkiThePirate or fredonly. Although I'm not going to say, as a user on here does, that you're a good representation of non-theist/liberal debaters cause you're not. Your post represents the lowest quality of debate that can ever exist. Anyways if there is somebody on this forum their who actually is intelligent enough to debate this topic, and there certainly are, here are my arguments:JoeyKnothead wrote:I, with my limited education, can't understand why any challenge to any claim, in debate, should warrant a rebuke from my debating peers - so many of whom I hold in such high esteem.
Recessions are a natural part of the business cycle, and they occur as a result of shocks to economic indicators, not because of income inequality or the like.
When the rich benefit, the poor also benefit. In economic arrangements, what is most likely to happen is that both parties involved will either benefit or be harmed together. One party is not bound to benefit at the expense of the other party.
BTW: JoeyKnothead suggested that links be incorporated into the quoted users name so that readers can click on the name and see the post. This suggestion has screwed up the format in many threads, and what's even more strange is that JoeyKnothead, in this post, chooses to manually link the Post and disregard the suggestion he himself proposed. What's up? You make a suggestion that messes up threads and makes it harder to quote statements, and yet you don't utilize it?
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Post #6
From Post 4:
My intention was to show the futility in ad hom attacks and danged if I didn't end up ad homming right along.
With thanks to a great friend and forum member for pointing this out to me.
I'd like to 'pologize to WinePusher, and the forum at large for this.JoeyKnothead wrote: I propose it's you that's the moron.
My intention was to show the futility in ad hom attacks and danged if I didn't end up ad homming right along.
With thanks to a great friend and forum member for pointing this out to me.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin
-Punkinhead Martin
Post #7
It's fine. I can't say I was suprised to see you say that but what I do find suprising is that it took someone else's doing to show you that what you said was ad hominem.JoeyKnothead wrote:From Post 4:
I'd like to 'pologize to WinePusher, and the forum at large for this.JoeyKnothead wrote: I propose it's you that's the moron.
My intention was to show the futility in ad hom attacks and danged if I didn't end up ad homming right along.
With thanks to a great friend and forum member for pointing this out to me.
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Post #8
From Post 5:
Calling one's opponents "morons" ain't the same.
Does violating some old English teacher's rules indicate one's argument is in error?
Does WinePusher seek to deny me my rights (according to forum rules)?
And upon hearing such, I couldn't just say outright they were - to use your term - morons.
I care not who engages in debate. I care if they start calling folks "morons" as you (and I) have.
Let's all says this together...
Argumentum ad populum!
How might'n we determine which of us is closer to the truth...
Without resorting to arguments from popularity?
SUPPORT THEIR CLAIMS WITHOUT RESORTING TO AD HOMS, OR RESORT TO ARGUMENTS FROM NUMBERS...
That recessions occur rather "naturally", I propose, is not in dispute.
That such occurs because capitalist entities demand "socialist" bailouts should not be.
I'd caution against saying there was no commentary on the topic, lest I expose how I couldn't sort out how much commentary there actually was.WinePusher wrote: lol. So no commentary on the topic?
I'd caution against saying there was no rebuttal, lest I expose I coulndn't sort out what rebuttal was acually there.WinePusher wrote: No rebuttal to my points about the business cycle or mutually beneficial economic actions? I doubt anybody actually expected an intelligent response out of you, JoeyKnothead.
Of course.WinePusher wrote: Producing one liners that violate just about nearly every single english grammatical rule seems to be the only thing you're capable of doing.
Calling one's opponents "morons" ain't the same.
Does violating some old English teacher's rules indicate one's argument is in error?
Please note, I never said the "business cycle" is similar to a Fox News rant. That you assume such is the case is quite telling.WinePusher wrote: The fact that you would think that a description of the business cycle is a similar to a Fox News rant just shows how you know absolutely nothing about the topic.
Cause I have rights.WinePusher wrote: Why do you post in the Politics and Religion section if you know nothing about Politics or Current Affairs?
Does WinePusher seek to deny me my rights (according to forum rules)?
Yes.WinePusher wrote: Have you actually read any OP-ED's on the Wall Street Protests or seen people at the protests speak?
And upon hearing such, I couldn't just say outright they were - to use your term - morons.
I propose that calling one's opponents - as you have - "morons" is to indicate that you yourself are the one lacking in education.WinePusher wrote: If you have a limited education on a specific topic, which you admit you do, then don't try to debate it.
Of course. Offering opposing views is "derailing threads".WinePusher wrote: Well actually, you're not even trying to debate the topic in this thread, you're just trying to derail it.
I propose you "clearly don't" understand the points I make.WinePusher wrote: But anyways, if you don't understand Politics, Economics or Current Events, which you clearly don't, then don't post in threads devoted to the subject.
That's your own cross to tote around.WinePusher wrote: I know very little about Physics and am not motivated to learn more about it...
Can you reference a site rule or regulation that says I can't?WinePusher wrote: so I probably wouldn't enter into a thread that is devoted to the topic.
Argument from popularity. For the umpteen millionth time.WinePusher wrote: But if I did, I would only enter in if I had a fair amount of sources supporting my contention and I would defer contestable points to users who have demonstrated knowledge in Physics, such as AkiThePirate or fredonly.
I care not who engages in debate. I care if they start calling folks "morons" as you (and I) have.
Well whoodathunk my opponent wasn't cool with my arguments?WinePusher wrote: Although I'm not going to say, as a user on here does, that you're a good representation of non-theist/liberal debaters cause you're not.
Let's all says this together...
Argumentum ad populum!
Your post represents the lowest quality of debat that can ever exist.WinePusher wrote: Your post represents the lowest quality of debate that can ever exist.
How might'n we determine which of us is closer to the truth...
Without resorting to arguments from popularity?
Anyways, if there is somebody on this forum their (is that a "fragment error, or a 'can't' tell there from their or they're error"?) who is actually intelligent enough toWinePusher wrote: Anyways if there is somebody on this forum their who actually is intelligent enough to debate this topic, and there certainly are, here are my arguments:
SUPPORT THEIR CLAIMS WITHOUT RESORTING TO AD HOMS, OR RESORT TO ARGUMENTS FROM NUMBERS...
Somewhat correct.WinePusher wrote: Recessions are a natural part of the business cycle, and they occur as a result of shocks to economic indicators, not because of income inequality or the like.
That recessions occur rather "naturally", I propose, is not in dispute.
That such occurs because capitalist entities demand "socialist" bailouts should not be.
Except when the rich demand bailouts (socialism), while decrying any attempt at moderation to be - wait for it - socialism.WinePusher wrote: When the rich benefit, the poor also benefit.
Unless, of course, one party actually is harmed while the other'n benefits.WinePusher wrote: In economic arrangements, what is most likely to happen is that both parties involved will either benefit or be harmed together. One party is not bound to benefit at the expense of the other party.
Is there no straw-man argument you won't present?WinePusher wrote: BTW: JoeyKnothead suggested that links be incorporated into the quoted users name so that readers can click on the name and see the post. This suggestion has screwed up the format in many threads, and what's even more strange is that JoeyKnothead, in this post, chooses to manually link the Post and disregard the suggestion he himself proposed. What's up? You make a suggestion that messes up threads and makes it harder to quote statements, and yet you don't utilize it?
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin
-Punkinhead Martin
Post #9
WinePusher wrote:lol. So no commentary on the topic?
Your advice is not needed, JoeyKnothead. Rather than handing out unwanted advice you should try debating for a change. Do you have anything to say about the topic, or did you just want to derail another thread?JoeyKnothead wrote:I'd caution against saying there was no commentary on the topic, lest I expose how I couldn't sort out how much commentary there actually was.
WinePusher wrote:No rebuttal to my points about the business cycle or mutually beneficial economic actions? I doubt anybody actually expected an intelligent response out of you, JoeyKnothead.
Well, were was your rebuttal to my points? I can't find them, so direct me to them instead of this nonsense.JoeyKnothead wrote:I'd caution against saying there was no rebuttal, lest I expose I coulndn't sort out what rebuttal was acually there.
WinePusher wrote:Producing one liners that violate just about nearly every single english grammatical rule seems to be the only thing you're capable of doing.
I'd never call a user on here a moron like you did. But referring to an argument or a group of people as morons is uncivil and I'll retract it and 'pologize to those affected.JoeyKnothead wrote:Of course.
Calling one's opponents "morons" ain't the same.
lol what is your argument. Where is your argument addressing the points I raised? And no, it doesn't but it means that the individual is inarticulate and a bad writer. It's ironic how you get so 'butt hurt' about people violating rule 5 but you go out of your way to break rule 13. Not all of us are from your region and are familiar with your dialect, please take that into consideration next time you attempt to write something.JoeyKnothead wrote:Does violating some old English teacher's rules indicate one's argument is in error?
WinePusher wrote:The fact that you would think that a description of the business cycle is a similar to a Fox News rant just shows how you know absolutely nothing about the topic.
Why must you resort to such dishonesty? You responded to two of my quotes:JoeyKnothead wrote:Please note, I never said the "business cycle" is similar to a Fox News rant. That you assume such is the case is quite telling.
"This guy's even more incohrent than the wall street protestors themselves."
"...the protestors are total morons."
and you said:
"I leave the remainder of the post as the Fox News inspired rant it so obviously is."
The part about the business cycle was part of the remainder. Retract your claim lest you expose your "lack of honor."
Challenge #1
WinePusher wrote:Why do you post in the Politics and Religion section if you know nothing about Politics or Current Affairs?
No, of course not. You can post wherever you want. But it's apparent you don't understand Politics and are not motivated to keep up on Current Events, so why debate the issue? Don't people need to actually understand the issue they try to debate? Do you claim to understand Politics, Economics and Current Events?JoeyKnothead wrote:Cause I have rights.
Does WinePusher seek to deny me my rights (according to forum rules)?
WinePusher wrote:Have you actually read any OP-ED's on the Wall Street Protests or seen people at the protests speak?
You did? Would you mind presenting for examination the OP-Ed Columnist who wrote the article and the article itself or the anchor who was reporting and the clip in which he was reporting on the protests?JoeyKnothead wrote:Yes.
And upon hearing such, I couldn't just say outright they were - to use your term -morons.
WinePusher wrote:If you have a limited education on a specific topic, which you admit you do, then don't try to debate it.
lol you know nothing about me. Why would you say such an absurd thing about someone you know nothing about? I am merely going off the things you have written where you have admited on more than once occastion about your lack of education. If you don't want it to become a subject of debate don't post it in debate threads.JoeyKnothead wrote:I propose that calling one's opponents - as you have - "morons" is to indicate that you yourself are the one lacking in education.
WinePusher wrote:Well actually, you're not even trying to debate the topic in this thread, you're just trying to derail it.
I can't find any opposing viewpoints on the topic of the Wall Street Protests in Post 4 . Why do you have to constantly make up stuff? First you make up latin phrases that don't exist, and now you make up posts that don't exist. It's funny, for someone who relies so heavily on one liner latin fallacies you don't seem to know anything about latin.JoeyKnothead wrote:Of course. Offering opposing views is "derailing threads".
WinePusher wrote:But anyways, if you don't understand Politics, Economics or Current Events, which you clearly don't, then don't post in threads devoted to the subject.
Where were your political and economic arguments and points in Post 4? Please stop making stuff up and start actually debating the issue.JoeyKnothead wrote:I propose you "clearly don't" understand the points I make.
WinePusher wrote:so I probably wouldn't enter into a thread that is devoted to the topic.
No, but that's the difference between you and I. I'd refrain from participating in a thread if it was about a topic I knew little about because I would contribute very little to the overall discussion. You just go into any thread you desire, even if you don't understand the topic, and derail it with inane comments.JoeyKnothead wrote:Can you reference a site rule or regulation that says I can't?
WinePusher wrote:But if I did, I would only enter in if I had a fair amount of sources supporting my contention and I would defer contestable points to users who have demonstrated knowledge in Physics, such as AkiThePirate or fredonly.
Before you start spewing fallacies, get a clue about what they actually mean. An appeal to popularity is when an individual states an assertion it true because numerous amounts of people believe it. This is why critical thinking classes should be given out prior to Middle School .JoeyKnothead wrote:Argument from popularity. For the umpteen millionth time.
There's the screaming JoeyKnothead we're all familiar with. I'm suprised you actually managed to post two entire posts in this thread without screaming, but whatever, little steps.JoeyKnothead wrote:SUPPORT THEIR CLAIMS WITHOUT RESORTING TO AD HOMS, OR RESORT TO ARGUMENTS FROM NUMBERS...
WinePusher wrote:Recessions are a natural part of the business cycle, and they occur as a result of shocks to economic indicators, not because of income inequality or the like.
Somewhat correct? Which part is incorrect. Go ahead and astound us with your brilliance, explain how the business cycle works and how my description of it is only somewhat correct.JoeyKnothead wrote:Somewhat correct.
Capitalism is an economic system, Socialism is an economic systems. 'Entities' either exist within a Capitalist economy or a Socialist economy. An elementary mistake, this isn't even an economic concept. This concept is taught in government courses. And what is the mechanism by which bailouts cause recessions? I can think of none unless you don't understand what a recession is? Could you explain what, in your view, a recession is?JoeyKnothead wrote:That such occurs because capitalist entities demand "socialist" bailouts should not be.
WinePusher wrote:When the rich benefit, the poor also benefit.
Rich individuals aren't eligible for government bailouts, JoeyKnothead. Who is feeding you this information, or are you just making stuff up as you go along? Corporations are the 'entities' which recieved bailout money, do you know what a corporation is and why corporations exist? If you gain some motivation, wikipedia actually has a decent article for once on the Theory of the Firm which thoroughly explains this concept.JoeyKnothead wrote:Except when the rich demand bailouts (socialism), while decrying any attempt at moderation to be - wait for it - socialism.
WinePusher wrote:In economic arrangements, what is most likely to happen is that both parties involved will either benefit or be harmed together. One party is not bound to benefit at the expense of the other party.
1) Cite an example where this has occured.JoeyKnothead wrote:Unless, of course, one party actually is harmed while the other'n benefits.
2) Explain how one party was harmed at the expense of another parties benefit.
3) Explain how the other party benefited from their harm.
4) Explain how this 'harm' and 'benefit' took form.
Challenge 1
Post #10
Moderator Action
This thread has been derailed since it was hijacked by a couple posters who decided personal insults would be so much more beneficial than actually debating. As it is currently in such a downhill spiral I don't see anything but further reports being generated so the topic is locked. I strongly encourage the author of the original OP to give it another attempt if he/she feels strongly about the topic. I would also pass along a strong word of caution here, if threads continue to be derailed and personal attacks continue to escalate between members, warnings will progress much quicker to probation and even faster to banning. Please adhere to the rules.
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This thread has been derailed since it was hijacked by a couple posters who decided personal insults would be so much more beneficial than actually debating. As it is currently in such a downhill spiral I don't see anything but further reports being generated so the topic is locked. I strongly encourage the author of the original OP to give it another attempt if he/she feels strongly about the topic. I would also pass along a strong word of caution here, if threads continue to be derailed and personal attacks continue to escalate between members, warnings will progress much quicker to probation and even faster to banning. Please adhere to the rules.
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Moderator actions indicate that a thread/post has been moved, merged, or split. Such actions are taken at the discretion of a moderator.
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Never be bullied into silence.
Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one persons definition of your life; define yourself.
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Never be bullied into silence.
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Accept no one persons definition of your life; define yourself.
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