Question about Trinity

[McCulloch]

How is it that two eternal persons be described as having a father and son relationship?

[Peg]

How is it that two eternal persons be described as having a father and son relationship?

Jesus is not eternal. The bible says that Jesus is 'begotten' which means he was created by God.

that is why Jesus can be called a 'son' of God.

[McCulloch]

How is it that two eternal persons be described as having a father and son relationship?

Jesus is not eternal. The bible says that Jesus is 'begotten' which means he was created by God.

that is why Jesus can be called a 'son' of God.

Your answer makes too much sense to be valid theology. God is eternal. If Jesus is not eternal, if Jesus was begotten then Jesus is not God. Now, I'm OK with that idea, but it does unravel the efforts of many generations of Christian theologians who insist that Jesus is God, not just the son of God.

[Peg]

How is it that two eternal persons be described as having a father and son relationship?

Jesus is not eternal. The bible says that Jesus is 'begotten' which means he was created by God.

that is why Jesus can be called a 'son' of God.

Your answer makes too much sense to be valid theology. God is eternal. If Jesus is not eternal, if Jesus was begotten then Jesus is not God. Now, I'm OK with that idea, but it does unravel the efforts of many generations of Christian theologians who insist that Jesus is God, not just the son of God.

yeah well the problem is the gulf between what the bible writers state about Jesus and what those 'theologians' state about Jesus...its far too wide to be reconciled.

If they just taught what the scriptures state, there would be no confusion.

[Wootah]

Is peg replying as a Christian? How is Jesus's sacrifice payment enough unless he is God?

My thoughts on the question is that father son and spirit are terms for us and how we should relate to God.

[Peg]

Is peg replying as a Christian? How is Jesus's sacrifice payment enough unless he is God?

My thoughts on the question is that father son and spirit are terms for us and how we should relate to God.

Yes i am a christian, and have been for 20 years.

Why does Jesus have to be God for his sacrifice to be enough?

If you consider the mosaic law of 'eye for eye' and 'tooth for tooth', the laws requirement was that if something is lost, it must be repaid with something of equal value.
What Adam lost was perfect human life. He wasnt a god, so the repayment of what he lost did not require anything more then another perfect human life.

Jesus was that perfect human life and he did not have to be God... actually it doesnt even make sense that God could even be encased in a body of flesh and blood let alone die. So please enlighten me as to why you believe the sacrifice had to be God himself.

[Wootah]

Yes i am a christian, and have been for 20 years.

Which denomination? I'm guessing JW after googlnig perfect man and trying to find why you thought that about Adam.

Why does Jesus have to be God for his sacrifice to be enough?

If you consider the mosaic law of 'eye for eye' and 'tooth for tooth', the laws requirement was that if something is lost, it must be repaid with something of equal value.

You answer that question with your next paragraph.

What Adam lost was perfect human life. He wasnt a god, so the repayment of what he lost did not require anything more then another perfect human life.

Where does it say in the bible that Adam was the perfect human life? How does a perfect human life commit sin?

Jesus was that perfect human life and he did not have to be God... actually it doesnt even make sense that God could even be encased in a body of flesh and blood let alone die.

Why doesn't it make sense that God could become a man? Don't you believe in omnipotence?

So please enlighten me as to why you believe the sacrifice had to be God himself.

God is infinite or absolute I won't fuss too much about which.
Sin is a debt against God.
That debt is also infinite/absolute.
Eye for an eye requires equal payment for the debt.
No person or thing could be sacrificed to pay an infinite debt.
Only God can pay that debt.
Therefore Jesus is God.

Here is carm's take on it.
http://carm.org/christianity/christian- ... e-our-sins

[Peg]

Which denomination? I'm guessing JW after googlnig perfect man and trying to find why you thought that about Adam.

yes I am one of Jehovahs Witnesses. Have been for 20 years.

Where does it say in the bible that Adam was the perfect human life? How does a perfect human life commit sin?

When God created Adam, he created him perfect because Adam was created in 'the image of God' so he was in perfect harmony with Gods standars of conduct, morality, behavior and attitudes.
Genesis 1:26 And God went on to say: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every moving animal that is moving upon the earth.� 27 And God proceeded to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them

If something is in the image of God, then it is perfect.
Jesus was said to be 'the image of God'
Hebrews 1:3 He is the reflection of [his] glory and the exact representation of his very being

and he too was a perfect man because he reflected the perfection of God in every aspect of his life, conduct, manner, attitudes, moral standards and obedience.
Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation

John 14:9 Jesus said to him: “Have I been with YOU men so long a time, and yet, Philip, you have not come to know me? ...10 Do you not believe that I am in union with the Father and the Father is in union with me? The things I say to YOU men I do not speak of my own originality; but the Father who remains in union with me is doing his works.


When Adam was created, Adam was in union with God also. But Adam fell out of union with his God through disobedience. When Adam disobeyed Gods law, it broke the bond of unity they had because Adam defied God. For that reason he was disconnected from his source of life, and he died as a result of being alientated from his maker:
Genesis 3:17 And to Adam he said: “Because you listened to your wife’s voice and took to eating from the tree concerning which I gave you this command, ‘You must not eat from it,’ cursed is the ground on your account. In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life. 18 And thorns and thistles it will grow for you, and you must eat the vegetation of the field. 19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.�


1John 5:3 For this is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments; and yet his commandments are not burdensome

Adam failed to observe Gods command and for that reason he became a sinner...but he wasnt born that way because if we can observe Gods commands, then so could he have. But he chose not too just as we can choose not to.

Why doesn't it make sense that God could become a man? Don't you believe in omnipotence?

The sheer power of God could not be contained within the few atoms of a human body...that is ludicrous to believe he could be contained in such a way.

He tells us that the entire earth is like a 'footstool' to him. Isaiah 66:1 “The heavens are my throne, and the earth is my footstool. Where, then, is the house that YOU people can build for me, and where, then, is the place as a resting-place for me?

If God could not even be contained within the huge walls of Solomons temple, how could he be contained in the weak body of a human being?

God is infinite or absolute I won't fuss too much about which.
Sin is a debt against God.
That debt is also infinite/absolute.
Eye for an eye requires equal payment for the debt.
No person or thing could be sacrificed to pay an infinite debt.
Only God can pay that debt.
Therefore Jesus is God.

Was Adams life 'infinite'? Was Adam, the fleshly man made of the dust, equal to God???

And now ask yourself this question.
If someone becomes indebted to you, who must pay the debt? You or the person who owes you something???


Of course it is the person owing the debt who pays the debt and that is exactly what Adam paid. He paid his debt to God with his human life.
Romans 6:23 For the wages sin pays is death...

When Adam finally died, he paid his sin debt to God. However, Adams children carry sin as a result of Adam....So God chose to have their individual debts paid by someone else who was the equivalent to Adam. Adams equal was Jesus Christ...born as a perfect human, Jesus was the perfect equivalent to Adam. And Jesus died on behalf of us as a payment to God for our sins. Paul says that God provided Jesus as a gift
Romans 6:23 ...but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord.

[Wootah]

yes I am one of Jehovahs Witnesses. Have been for 20 years.

After 20 years I think it is fair you point that out.

If something is in the image of God then it is perfect.

Therefore current man is not in the image of God?

Was Adams life 'infinite'? Was Adam, the fleshly man made of the dust, equal to God???

Sinning against God is against God. if you drive a mini and crash into a merc you pay the price for the merc not for the mini. Adam's size is irrelevant.

And now ask yourself this question.
If someone becomes indebted to you, who must pay the debt? You or the person who owes you something???

The person who owes of course. But I can choose to pay their debt for them if I wish to.

Unanswered questions:
Where does it say in the bible that Adam was the perfect human life?

How does a perfect human life commit sin?

Don't you believe God is omnipotent?

[Peg]

Unanswered questions:
Where does it say in the bible that Adam was the perfect human life?

How does a perfect human life commit sin?

Don't you believe God is omnipotent?

After God created Adam and Eve, he looked at his creation and said it was very good.
Genesis 1:31 After that God saw everything he had made and, look! [it was] very good
in this context of Gods creations, he didnt create anything that was tainted or bad...Adam and Eve were created in the image of God as Genesis says and they were perfect when God created them. They were not defective in any way.

Even though they were perfect, they still had free will. So they committed sin (which means a failure to meet Gods standards) when they did something they were told not to do. Eve was decieved by the serpent, but Adam choose to eat the fruit.... and that is what their sin was. It was disobedience to Gods law. If they had of remained obedient, they would not have sinned in that way and they would likely still be here.


I believe God is all powerful and almighty, yes. And i think because of that, it is impossible for God to die because he is 'eternal' So there is no way he could die because his immortality means he is 'unable' to die. We are 'mortal' which means we CAN die, but being 'immortal' means being UNABLE to die. So there is no way God came to earth as a man and died.

In fact, the scriptures tell us that God would 'send someone' to redeem mankind. He didnt say the would come himself. Can you show any scripture where God tells us that he will come and die for us???

[Wootah]

Good <>Perfect that is your logical error.

Who do you say I am?

http://www.letusreason.org/trin16.htm

It's the point of the new testament.

Since you don't know what death is how can the rest of your claims on God not being able to become man be valid?