Gay marriage

[inviere1644]

Ok, as a moderate gay man I'm always interested to see what people on the liberal and conservative spectrums have to say about this issue. So, is it right or wrong? why or why not?

[Angel]

bluethread,

This is more of a personal question but it's relevant to this debate because personal values can influence throught for the good or bad. What's your view on gays being together in a relationship and having sex. Do you consider this moral or immoral? Are you a Christian?

I ask these questions because you seem to be arguing like you're on the sideline or something. You seem reluctant to offer your view on gay marriage from a 'moral' aspect. From my experience, some people who don't reveal this do so because they don't want to be looked at as hiding behind their religion or opposing gay marriage based on religion, eventhough that is the case, SOMEtimes.

As a Christian, I was against gay marriage on moral grounds, but I readily admitted it was only because of my religion and not for real legal or rational/evidenced reasons.

[bluethread]

Roman law outlawed such marriages in 342 C.E., indicating that such unions must have been recognized in pre-Christian Rome.

Not necessarily, the state could have been indifferent prior to that point.

The statute specifically prescribes penalties for those married under the old law.

Important bit of information. Had that been included previously, I would not have committed the sin of examining other alternatives.

Personally, I am not in the habit dismissing the views of others. That is why I have responded to each line of reasoning you have presented, even though I would have prefered to examine the underlying issues. Regardless, your approach has forced me to do more research to understand more fully the positions on both sides of the issue. For that, I am grateful.

Kind of hard to have an argument without a position. Just saying.

I stated my position. I think that it is important to thoroughly examine an issue. It is not hard to examine the various positions, when one is not required to take sides. I hope you did not find my gratitude offensive.

[bluethread]

bluethread,

This is more of a personal question but it's relevant to this debate because personal values can influence throught for the good or bad. What's your view on gays being together in a relationship and having sex. Do you consider this moral or immoral? Are you a Christian?

Let me answer the second question first and then explain the context of my belief system before answering the first question in the hope that the context of mybelief system will be respected.

I do not consider myself a christian primarily due to the overwhelming influence of the RCC on christindom. In my experience, most of the moral objections from nonbelievers center around RCC doctrine and history that permiates almost every christian denomination. My belief system centers around an overarching covenant relationship between Adonai and his people that has existed since the beginning. In that context, it is my considered opinion that a covenant relationship with another person is honorable and in accordance with Adonai's ways, but it does not make anything that Adonai calls unclean clean. This is the converse corollary of Adonai's revelation to Peter that one should not call unclean what Adonai calls clean.

So, how does this relate to the morality of homosexual marrage in the greater context. Well, we are living in the diaspora and not in Adonai's kingdom. Therefore, we must follow Paul's advise when he says, (Rom. 12:18)"If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone." Therefore, I do not permit anything unclean within my gates. What others wish to do within their gates is none of my business. I personally choose not to partake of "the portion of the king's meat", because I can not be certain that the "king" respects Adonai's ways. This forum is not within my gates. Therefore, as far as is possible, I respect the "law of the land" in public discourse. That is why I prefer to discuss concepts and inquire regarding them, especially in this forum, rather than take a position with regard to the practices of the nations.

[Angel]

bluethread,

This is more of a personal question but it's relevant to this debate because personal values can influence throught for the good or bad. What's your view on gays being together in a relationship and having sex. Do you consider this moral or immoral? Are you a Christian?

I ask these questions because you seem to be arguing like you're on the sideline or something. You seem reluctant to offer your view on gay marriage from a 'moral' aspect. From my experience, some people who don't reveal this do so because they don't want to be looked at as hiding behind their religion or opposing gay marriage based on religion, eventhough that is the case, SOMEtimes.

As a Christian, I was against gay marriage on moral grounds, but I readily admitted it was only because of my religion and not for real legal or rational/evidenced reasons.

Let me answer the second question first and then explain the context of my belief system before answering the first question in the hope that the context of mybelief system will be respected.

I do not consider myself a christian primarily due to the overwhelming influence of the RCC on christindom. In my experience, most of the moral objections from nonbelievers center around RCC doctrine and history that permiates almost every christian denomination. My belief system centers around an overarching covenant relationship between Adonai and his people that has existed since the beginning. In that context, it is my considered opinion that a covenant relationship with another person is honorable and in accordance with Adonai's ways, but it does not make anything that Adonai calls unclean clean. This is the converse corollary of Adonai's revelation to Peter that one should not call unclean what Adonai calls clean.

So, how does this relate to the morality of homosexual marrage in the greater context. Well, we are living in the diaspora and not in Adonai's kingdom. Therefore, we must follow Paul's advise when he says, (Rom. 12:18)"If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone." Therefore, I do not permit anything unclean within my gates. What others wish to do within their gates is none of my business. I personally choose not to partake of "the portion of the king's meat", because I can not be certain that the "king" respects Adonai's ways. This forum is not within my gates. Therefore, as far as is possible, I respect the "law of the land" in public discourse. That is why I prefer to discuss concepts and inquire regarding them, especially in this forum, rather than take a position with regard to the practices of the nations.

Okay, you're not a Christian but you're a Bible believer of some sort. You make reference to something being 'unclean' and I'll ask you are you referring to gay marriage? And again, I'll ask you for a simple answer, do you consider gay sex to be immoral? I'll keep asking you this until I get a straight answer.

[Autodidact]

I'll just point out, Angel, that "unclean" and immoral are two very different things. One deals with ethics and ideas of honesty and compassion. The other deals with tribal taboos, mostly about food and sex.

[Autodidact]

What gay marriage is really about:
http://www.news-record.com/content/2012 ... and_belief

[bluethread]

Okay, you're not a Christian but you're a Bible believer of some sort. You make reference to something being 'unclean' and I'll ask you are you referring to gay marriage? And again, I'll ask you for a simple answer, do you consider gay sex to be immoral? I'll keep asking you this until I get a straight answer.

Autodidact is correct in pointing out that immoral and unclean are two different things. However, I think, Autodidact's explanation of those differences is based on a personal preference for the secular over the religious. From my prospective, morality refers to a set of social rules, customs, traditions, beliefs, or practices which specify proper, acceptable forms of conduct. Therefore, in order todetermine if something is moral or immoral, one must have a frame of reference.

Do you wish me to state whether I believe gay marrage is moral or immoral in relation to the current social standards in the USA or according to my personal belief system? If it is the latter, then the concept of clean and unclean comes into play. Inspite of what some think, clean and unclean is not just about food and sex, but about fitness for a purpose. When I say that I do not permit anything unclean within my gates, I am refering to that which is fit for the purposes of my household. One need not accept my belief system in order to be considered clean with regard to being within my gates. However, one must abide by the rules of the house in one's behavior. To speak directly to marital relations, two people who are or wish to be considered married in other venues must repect the fact that such a relationship may not be recognized in my home and act accordingly. This is not limited to homosexual relationship, but a range of relationships that may or may not be acceptable to others. I acknowledge the same when I go outside my home. I realize that things I believe are not recognized by others and act accordingly.

[Angel]

bluethread,

This is more of a personal question but it's relevant to this debate because personal values can influence throught for the good or bad. What's your view on gays being together in a relationship and having sex. Do you consider this moral or immoral? Are you a Christian?

I ask these questions because you seem to be arguing like you're on the sideline or something. You seem reluctant to offer your view on gay marriage from a 'moral' aspect. From my experience, some people who don't reveal this do so because they don't want to be looked at as hiding behind their religion or opposing gay marriage based on religion, eventhough that is the case, SOMEtimes.

As a Christian, I was against gay marriage on moral grounds, but I readily admitted it was only because of my religion and not for real legal or rational/evidenced reasons.

Okay, you're not a Christian but you're a Bible believer of some sort. You make reference to something being 'unclean' and I'll ask you are you referring to gay marriage? And again, I'll ask you for a simple answer, do you consider gay sex to be immoral? I'll keep asking you this until I get a straight answer.

Autodidact is correct in pointing out that immoral and unclean are two different things. However, I think, Autodidact's explanation of those differences is based on a personal preference for the secular over the religious. From my prospective, morality refers to a set of social rules, customs, traditions, beliefs, or practices which specify proper, acceptable forms of conduct. Therefore, in order todetermine if something is moral or immoral, one must have a frame of reference.

Do you wish me to state whether I believe gay marrage is moral or immoral in relation to the current social standards in the USA or according to my personal belief system? If it is the latter, then the concept of clean and unclean comes into play. Inspite of what some think, clean and unclean is not just about food and sex, but about fitness for a purpose. When I say that I do not permit anything unclean within my gates, I am refering to that which is fit for the purposes of my household. One need not accept my belief system in order to be considered clean with regard to being within my gates. However, one must abide by the rules of the house in one's behavior. To speak directly to marital relations, two people who are or wish to be considered married in other venues must repect the fact that such a relationship may not be recognized in my home and act accordingly. This is not limited to homosexual relationship, but a range of relationships that may or may not be acceptable to others. I acknowledge the same when I go outside my home. I realize that things I believe are not recognized by others and act accordingly.

I am not speaking in general but specifically about gay sex and marriage. Under your belief system ( on this page, post #233 you called it "Adonai's way") that gay sex is wrong? You mentioned some relationships MAY not be and this again shows your reluctance to answer a question in a straightforward manner. Do you have something to hide here that plays into my point of SOME Bible believers not wanting to admit the religious aspect for their opposition of gay marriage? Would Adonai say gay sex MAY not be accepted?

[bluethread]

I am not speaking in general but specifically about gay sex and marriage. Under your belief system ( on this page, post #233 you called it "Adonai's way") that gay sex is wrong? You mentioned some relationships MAY not be and this again shows your reluctance to answer a question in a straightforward manner. Do you have something to hide here that plays into my point of SOME Bible believers not wanting to admit the religious aspect for their opposition of gay marriage? Would Adonai say gay sex MAY not be accepted?

There is no provision for gay marrage in the Scriptures. Therefore, I do not believe that it is among Adonai's ways. Any reluctance I have is based on the fact that people tend to judge things based on their prospective, rather than taking the time to examine people's beliefs in context. The reference to the term unclean as a "tribal taboo" is a case in point.

[Goat]

I am not speaking in general but specifically about gay sex and marriage. Under your belief system ( on this page, post #233 you called it "Adonai's way") that gay sex is wrong? You mentioned some relationships MAY not be and this again shows your reluctance to answer a question in a straightforward manner. Do you have something to hide here that plays into my point of SOME Bible believers not wanting to admit the religious aspect for their opposition of gay marriage? Would Adonai say gay sex MAY not be accepted?

There is no provision for gay marrage in the Scriptures. Therefore, I do not believe that it is among Adonai's ways. Any reluctance I have is based on the fact that people tend to judge things based on their prospective, rather than taking the time to examine people's beliefs in context. The reference to the term unclean as a "tribal taboo" is a case in point.

Well, you know, there is no provision in Scriptures for vaccines, electricity, test tube babies, and things like that. .. The term 'Tovah' has to do with ritualistically unclean.. and most often refers to actions that done ritually in other local religions. There are a lot of things that are of concerns in the modern era that
is not mentioned in Scripture. Being ritualistically unclean is a state everyone gets into at one time or another, and there is a ritualistic way to cleanse oneself
(called the Taharah, and involves going into a mitveh.. or bath.. .. probably the ritual where Baptism was taken from).

When it comes to the specific prohibition , the action that is described has to do with 'penetration' I have seen commentary from a Rabbi that indicates that it has to do with 'humiliation rape' (I personally am skeptical about that claim). In any case, the prohibition has to do with one very specific sexual act, and it using a word that denotes someones ability to enter the Temple without needing to be purified. The language was taken , at least by the time of the second temple, to be exaggerated, showing it's importance (I don't know about before then).

A lot of those prohibitions specifically dealt with being able to enter the Temple, and since the temple doesn't exist anymore, it's pretty much moot in my eyes.