Is 'certainty' required of Christians?

[Flail]

Question for debate:
Can one be a true Christian and still have doubts and uncertainty about some or all of the fundamentals of the faith, such as the Virgin Birth, the Resurrection, the forgiveness of sin, Paul's vision on the road to Damascus, the inerrancy of scripture etc?

[Moses Yoder]

In my opinion all a person has to do to become a Christian is to be born again. To become born again you have to accept the fact that you are a sinner, repent of your sin, and accept Christ as your savior. "Accepting Christ" means to believe His sacrifice has paid for your sin.

You do not have to believe any other part of the Bible in order to be a Christian.

Once you are born again, you can never be unborn again. If you once called yourself a "Christian" and have now "left the faith", you were never born again.

This is the New International Version, John 10;

27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[a]; no one can snatch them out of my Fathers hand. 30 I and the Father are one.

Note it says God's children shall never perish, nor can anyone snatch them out of God's hand.

Do you have any evidence to support "your claim" (which is not a fact yet until you support it) that I was born a sinner?

I have it on very good authority that I had never sinned before or during birth.

In a post in the Philosophy section Comrad3 writes this paragraph, 3 post down;

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=19074

If God's thought - by nature - is more complex and infinite; our own thought will be inferior. Therefore the cave-wall analogy cannot apply. How can you possibly conceive of something that is by nature different than everything you have ever known, will ever know, or ever have the capability to know? Even if our thought was infinite and complex, it is not immaterial. Think about God's laws, think about his commandments he sets for Humanity. Do you think we can fully comprehend them if our thought is inferior to his? Imagine we set about laws for dogs, tell them to roll over when we snap our fingers. Can they ever fully comprehend the command? No. They just know to roll over when someone snaps their fingers. That's all well and good when it's just teaching a dog to roll over for treats, but when your everlasting soul depends on rolling over for treats; that's a different matter entirely

Granted I cannot prove that an omniscient God exists. But I think this argument leads to the logical conclusion that if an omniscient God does exist, humans by default are born sinners.

I don't believe a person is held accountable for their sin until they reach the age where they understand they are sinning.

[Darias]

Question for debate:
Can one be a true Christian and still have doubts and uncertainty about some or all of the fundamentals of the faith, such as the Virgin Birth, the Resurrection, the forgiveness of sin, Paul's vision on the road to Damascus, the inerrancy of scripture etc?

Well, I lack belief in all of the above, but I consider myself a Christian. I'm also an Agnostic-Ignostic.

It doesn't become that difficult to understand when you realize that there are even Christian Atheists, much like secular Jewish(religious) Atheists.

I base my claim to the Christian label based off of the culture and values I was brought up on, as well as the knowledge of the faith I acquired along the way.

To cast off that heritage would be impossible. It would make no sense to just forget where I came from. Besides, in some respects I have more in common with former Christians and practicing Christians than I do with Atheists who never felt the emotion of spiritualism and never understood the pain of faith in God -- much less with people who hate religion.

Yet in other cases, as it relates to Science and beliefs or the lack thereof, I feel more welcome among Agnostic and Atheist circles than those of my Christian brothers and sisters.

I don't know if anyone else here would consider me a Christian based off this. Perhaps Slopeshoulder, but probably not anyone else -- based on my failure to adhere to the fundamentals. Today, unlike Judaism, Christianity is popularly defined by fundamentalism. That may be great for them, god bless em, but it leaves no room for the rest of us (liberal/secular Theists, Agnostics, Atheists, Ignostics, etc.) Because of this I'm not sure if I am permitted to post in the Holy Huddle forum.

[Clownboat]

In my opinion all a person has to do to become a Christian is to be born again. To become born again you have to accept the fact that you are a sinner, repent of your sin, and accept Christ as your savior. "Accepting Christ" means to believe His sacrifice has paid for your sin.

You do not have to believe any other part of the Bible in order to be a Christian.

Once you are born again, you can never be unborn again. If you once called yourself a "Christian" and have now "left the faith", you were never born again.

This is the New International Version, John 10;

27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[a]; no one can snatch them out of my Fathers hand. 30 I and the Father are one.

Note it says God's children shall never perish, nor can anyone snatch them out of God's hand.

Do you have any evidence to support "your claim" (which is not a fact yet until you support it) that I was born a sinner?

I have it on very good authority that I had never sinned before or during birth.

In a post in the Philosophy section Comrad3 writes this paragraph, 3 post down;

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=19074

If God's thought - by nature - is more complex and infinite; our own thought will be inferior. Therefore the cave-wall analogy cannot apply. How can you possibly conceive of something that is by nature different than everything you have ever known, will ever know, or ever have the capability to know? Even if our thought was infinite and complex, it is not immaterial. Think about God's laws, think about his commandments he sets for Humanity. Do you think we can fully comprehend them if our thought is inferior to his? Imagine we set about laws for dogs, tell them to roll over when we snap our fingers. Can they ever fully comprehend the command? No. They just know to roll over when someone snaps their fingers. That's all well and good when it's just teaching a dog to roll over for treats, but when your everlasting soul depends on rolling over for treats; that's a different matter entirely

Granted I cannot prove that an omniscient God exists. But I think this argument leads to the logical conclusion that if an omniscient God does exist, humans by default are born sinners.

I don't believe a person is held accountable for their sin until they reach the age where they understand they are sinning.

How does you worshipping an omniscient god make me a sinner at birth? Your worship has no bearing on my birth.
How is being born sinful? Can you show the math as to how a new born has wronged your god?
Are we sinners while in the womb, or not until we come out?

This whole concept does not compute.

[EduChris]

...How is being born sinful?...This whole concept does not compute.

There are scholarly conceptualizations of "sin" which would answer this question for you, if you had any exposure to intellectual Christian thought. Since you claim to have had exposure to such thought, perhaps you should answer your own question on the basis of your (oft-claimed, but otherwise unevidenced) intellectual background...

[Yahu]

How does you worshipping an omniscient god make me a sinner at birth? Your worship has no bearing on my birth.
How is being born sinful? Can you show the math as to how a new born has wronged your god?
Are we sinners while in the womb, or not until we come out?

This whole concept does not compute.

No one is a sinner at birth. The total depravity of man doctrine and original sin so we are born sinful is nonsense. We are all born with the ability and desire to sin by our selfishness nature. No one is/was born with the ability to be totally good except for Yeshua.

[Oldfarmhouse]

How does you worshipping an omniscient god make me a sinner at birth? Your worship has no bearing on my birth.
How is being born sinful? Can you show the math as to how a new born has wronged your god?
Are we sinners while in the womb, or not until we come out?

This whole concept does not compute.

No one is a sinner at birth. The total depravity of man doctrine and original sin so we are born sinful is nonsense. We are all born with the ability and desire to sin by our selfishness nature. No one is/was born with the ability to be totally good except for Yeshua.

Is there really any sort of logical different between being born sinful and born with the desire to sin such that it is unavoidable? I think you are splitting hairs that have already been split once. You are just restating the same concept in a manner that sounds more comfortable to you?

[Flail]

Question for debate:
Can one be a true Christian and still have doubts and uncertainty about some or all of the fundamentals of the faith, such as the Virgin Birth, the Resurrection, the forgiveness of sin, Paul's vision on the road to Damascus, the inerrancy of scripture etc?

This is virtually the definition of Christian Fundamentalism. Thus this statement is merely rephrasing the question, "Are the Fundamentalists the only true Christians?"

Great....and your answer would be...???

[Oldfarmhouse]

Question for debate:
Can one be a true Christian and still have doubts and uncertainty about some or all of the fundamentals of the faith, such as the Virgin Birth, the Resurrection, the forgiveness of sin, Paul's vision on the road to Damascus, the inerrancy of scripture etc?

This is virtually the definition of Christian Fundamentalism. Thus this statement is merely rephrasing the question, "Are the Fundamentalists the only true Christians?"

Great....and your answer would be...???

Ah.. the old, "Will the real true Christian please stand up?"

I have to admit that being on the outside looking in is a position of luxury, in that, I can just say that a true Christian is anyone who declares themselves to be one and leave it at that.

I don't think it could be as easy for those who do consider themselves to be a member of the Christian faith. I may be wrong, but what I see is that when people declare themselves to be "Christian" they usually say it as if that's supposed to mean something. If it means something a little deeper than a mere label -- the meaning is going to have to be defined.

If one really can't be a true Christian unless one considers with absolute certainty that the fundamental elements of the faith as described in the Bible are literal historical events we can define it such that only the fundamentalists are the genuine article. Even then, there is not a universal agreement on what those fundamental elements are and to what degree a level of doubt is allowed.

Even on that level of specificity we still end up trying to nail jello to a tree.

[McCulloch]

Great....and your answer would be...???

I don't know. A true Christian is a disciple of Jesus. Since I cannot tell if the collection of writings known as the New Testament accurately represent the teachings of Jesus, I cannot tell if anyone if a true disciple.

[Flail]

Great....and your answer would be...???

I don't know. A true Christian is a disciple of Jesus. Since I cannot tell if the collection of writings known as the New Testament accurately represent the teachings of Jesus, I cannot tell if anyone if a true disciple.

Good point. Frankly, I don't see how anyone can be a true Christian without believing in the inerrancy of at least the NT. If one doesn't think NT scriptures are authored by a supernatural 'Holy Ghost', it becomes impossible to discern if there is any accuracy at all in them, particularly for key supernatural events like the Virgin Birth and the Resurrection. And if one doesn't buy into the Holy Ghost nonsense, I don't see how anyone could stand upon any of it with a 'straight face'. On what rational basis could you pick and choose which parts to believe and which parts to doubt?