Is 'certainty' required of Christians?

[Flail]

Question for debate:
Can one be a true Christian and still have doubts and uncertainty about some or all of the fundamentals of the faith, such as the Virgin Birth, the Resurrection, the forgiveness of sin, Paul's vision on the road to Damascus, the inerrancy of scripture etc?

[Clownboat]

...How is being born sinful?...This whole concept does not compute.

There are scholarly conceptualizations of "sin" which would answer this question for you, if you had any exposure to intellectual Christian thought. Since you claim to have had exposure to such thought, perhaps you should answer your own question on the basis of your (oft-claimed, but otherwise unevidenced) intellectual background...

Are you serious? I already know my past answers to this question.
For what should be an obvious reasons, I am not interested in my past justifications for this claim. I am interested in Moses's and others for this claim that they now make. You know, to better understand their thinking.

Please get off your high horse and either answer the question or try to stay on topic.

[Clownboat]

How does you worshipping an omniscient god make me a sinner at birth? Your worship has no bearing on my birth.
How is being born sinful? Can you show the math as to how a new born has wronged your god?
Are we sinners while in the womb, or not until we come out?

This whole concept does not compute.

No one is a sinner at birth. The total depravity of man doctrine and original sin so we are born sinful is nonsense. We are all born with the ability and desire to sin by our selfishness nature. No one is/was born with the ability to be totally good except for Yeshua.

It seems that EduChris would disagree, and I'm "pretty sure" he would consider himself a much more intellectual Christian than yourself.

Then again, we did not get his actual take on it, he just asked me to research what might be some other peoples answer, so I cannot be sure about that.

[EduChris]

...I already know my past answers to this question...

I'm just trying to get you to support you numerous claims to have been, at some point in the past, exposed to scholarly Christian thought. So far, the evidence for your assertions is nil (where's Joey when we need him?).

...answer the question...

"Sin" is not simply a personal matter, but in the personal sense it is any falling short of perfection, any failure to exemplify, preserve, and enhance shalom for all of God's creation. Unless you have been an absolutely perfect physical, mental, and moral specimen from the time of your conception, then you are a "sinner" in this personal sense.

But as we mentioned earlier, there are many more aspects to "sin" than just the personal. As a species, we humans have a pretty poor track record. We have collectively hated and oppressed and marginalized and exploited each other for centuries, and the most recent century revealed man's inhumanity to man on a global level, rather than just the tribal level of centuries past. We are all entwined and intertwined in cultures that systematically prevent the full flourishing of creation, and we are spoiling the only planet we have. This is the environment in which we were conceived, and in which we will develop. Even before we know what we're doing, we will be marred by our social structures and we will perpetuate the process for the next generation. This is what Christian theologians mean by the word, "sin."

[Clownboat]

...I already know my past answers to this question...

I'm just trying to get you to support you numerous claims to have been, at some point in the past, exposed to scholarly Christian thought. So far, the evidence for your assertions is nil (where's Joey when we need him?).

...answer the question...

"Sin" is not simply a personal matter, but in the personal sense it is any falling short of perfection, any failure to exemplify, preserve, and enhance shalom for all of God's creation. Unless you have been an absolutely perfect physical, mental, and moral specimen from the time of your conception, then you are a "sinner" in this personal sense.

But as we mentioned earlier, there are many more aspects to "sin" than just the personal. As a species, we humans have a pretty poor track record. We have collectively hated and oppressed and marginalized and exploited each other for centuries, and the most recent century revealed man's inhumanity to man on a global level, rather than just the tribal level of centuries past. We are all entwined and intertwined in cultures that systematically prevent the full flourishing of creation, and we are spoiling the only planet we have. This is the environment in which we were conceived, and in which we will develop. Even before we know what we're doing, we will be marred by our social structures and we will perpetuate the process for the next generation. This is what Christian theologians mean by the word, "sin."

Being a part of the animal kingdom would explain this behavior. This does not point us to a god concept however. It does help to suggest that man will eventually sin according to the theological definition you gave, but I think you are just seeing nature and fitting it in with your religious beliefs.

How does you worshipping an omniscient god make me a sinner at birth?

However, your explanation does not answer the actual question that was asked of Moses due to his claim. You try explain why a person will sin, but not why they are a sinner at birth.

You did answer your own strawman though, I will give you that.

[EduChris]

...your explanation does not answer the actual question that was asked...explain why a person will [be] a sinner at birth...

We are "sinners" at birth because we are part and parcel of social systems & structures which are hopelessly flawed in numerous ways.

Humans are "sinners" in a sense that is similar to the way in which white people in Western cultures are considered, by the very color of the skin, to be racists from the moment of conception. That may not seem "fair" to you, but it is an accurate depiction of contemporary discourse on racism.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 23:

(where's Joey when we need him?).

Right here.

Laughing at how one can be so sure of themselves to repeatedly carry on about their own "intellectualism" - Christian or otherwise.

While they sit there thinking there's some magic man up in the sky.

While being utterly incapable of showing such is the case

And then having the temerity to sit right there and question the credentials of someone else.

How much edumacitin' does it take to expound on woo?

[Clownboat]

...your explanation does not answer the actual question that was asked...explain why a person will [be] a sinner at birth...

We are "sinners" at birth because we are part and parcel of social systems & structures which are hopelessly flawed in numerous ways.

I only agree that we are part and parcel of social systems & structures which are hopelessly flawed in numerous ways. I don't agree that I have sinned at birth.

Humans are "sinners" in a sense that is similar to the way in which white people in Western cultures are considered, by the very color of the skin, to be racists from the moment of conception. That may not seem "fair" to you, but it is an accurate depiction of contemporary discourse on racism.

My skin color has not changed sense birth, does that mean I am still a racist? I don't hold any racist feelings, I think all humans belong together equally classified as "great apes".

At this point, I must still feel that it is a vile thing to call a newborn baby a sinner, deserving of whatever belief a person has for what sinners deserve (whether hell, or separation from god or whatever).

[EduChris]

...I don't agree that I have sinned at birth...

You don't have to have commited an actual offense to be a "sinner"; you simply need to be part and parcel of flawed social systems and structures.

...My skin color has not changed sense birth, does that mean I am still a racist? I don't hold any racist feelings...

You are not up-to-date on contemporary racist theory, which says that if you are white person in Western society, you are the beneficiary of "white privilege," which in turn means that you are racist whether or not you have any "racist feelings."

...it is a vile thing to call a newborn baby a sinner, deserving of whatever belief a person has for what sinners deserve (whether hell, or separation from god or whatever).

And again you are sticking with your layperson's understanding of "sin as personal offense," as opposed to the more nuanced views of contemporary theologians. The funny thing is that I think you actually agree with the more nuanced view, even though you seem unwilling to modify your own personal definition of "sin" so as to better accord with contemporary theology.

[Clownboat]

...I don't agree that I have sinned at birth...

You don't have to have commited an actual offense to be a "sinner"; you simply need to be part and parcel of flawed social systems and structures.

I hear ya Chris, I just don't accept the claim.

...My skin color has not changed sense birth, does that mean I am still a racist? I don't hold any racist feelings...

You are not up-to-date on contemporary racist theory, which says that if you are white person in Western society, you are the beneficiary of "white privilege," which in turn means that you are racist whether or not you have any "racist feelings."

You don't actually have to be racist to be racist, just white. Well, the term "racist" just lost a lot of meaning.

...it is a vile thing to call a newborn baby a sinner, deserving of whatever belief a person has for what sinners deserve (whether hell, or separation from god or whatever).

And again you are sticking with your layperson's understanding of "sin as personal offense," as opposed to the more nuanced views of contemporary theologians. The funny thing is that I think you actually agree with the more nuanced view, even though you seem unwilling to modify your own personal definition of "sin" so as to better accord with contemporary theology.

Modify my definition of sin??? Why would I do that? It is a religious term, not a term that is of much use to me in reality.

I'm curious if Moses had this same view when he made the claim about being a sinner at birth. I doubt that you would agree that he holds the same intellectualness as you do. I would venture a guess that he would have brought up the sin of Adam and Eve, but we may never know.

Anyway, thanks for your explanation. Forgive me for not being swallow it though. I just can't make it sit well with myself.

[EduChris]

...You don't actually have to be racist to be racist, just white. Well, the term "racist" just lost a lot of meaning...

Either that, or else it might have gained meaning.

...I'm curious if Moses had this same view...I would venture a guess that he would have brought up the sin of Adam and Eve...

Moses Yoder subscribes to the same view of Christianity that you do; the only difference between you and him is that he likes that particular view, whereas you dislike it.