Evidence, schmevidence and the extraordinary

[Awediot]

"I believe in God."


Is that a "claim"? ...Sort of. But a claim seems to imply I want you to believe too, and am ready, willing and able to try and convince you by providing reasons and evidence why you should believe too... Well, half right.

This infamous, under AND overestimated thing called "evidence" comes with some sometimes spoken, always implied qualifiers... It must be "sufficient" enough to "convince", and appropriately "extraordinary" while at the same time "rational" enough to essentially remove all doubt, or "prove" God on a case by case basis... If it's not, it doesn't qualify, is considered too 'personal' and isn't useful enough to be deemed real "evidence" at all...(except maybe to that particular theist, who we all know is just making it up anyway...seeing what they want to.)

So if asked what sort or amount of "evidence" the person wants, either it is spectacular and impossible for a mere human to produce (esp. over the internet), or they aren't sure...but if you don't produce it, you fail to meet your responsibility to back up your claim...even if all you did was say what you believe.

Then as the cherry on top, ANYTHING might actually be Aliens, or some terrorist secret weapon, or food poisoning or a brain tumor, or..or...amazing, but NOT GOD anyway...

It's a catch 22... I cannot produce the required miracle, or define what the person is demanding if they them self don't even know, or even if presented written in the clouds, then prove it really is GOD... It is impossible to present such "evidence" on demand with any realistic thought it will do any good. Ever... It never has been sufficient for the person asking for it, or they'd be a theist. That the latest request would be the one that turns them into a Believer, is a pretty silly expectation and both sides no it...yet, what else can we do?

Evidence for God, for a Spiritual Reality, is non-transferable, personal, empirical...and ultimately up to God, not us to give. Like beauty, it is in the eye of the beholder... Knowing this as a FACT (don't ask for evidence of that either please), I give up. Sort of... I know what I have to offer, what has shown me (me, personally) God, won't do the same for you. It can also be seen as evidence I'm crazy or stupid, immature or brainwashed...and it will be, It always is... So, I won't simply give a list anymore. Stop asking please...

This will be taken as a dodge...either because I don't actually have any, or I'm ashamed as I know it is so weak, this is an elaborate excuse and the atheist chalks it up as a "win" for some reason...

Normally that ends it...to which I must reply...



Find Your Hand in a Dream



...o kay... Odd...

Extra-ordinary even.

How is that "evidence"?

Well, do it...and you tell me what you get out of it... Then, we'll go from there. It won't show you God, but if you accomplish it, I guarantee it will show you how it is that people can think they have found Him. Your paradigm will shift...and I have to caution, you might not like it.

Now, lets discuss the nature of your willingness to try or not...

[TheBlackPhilosophy]

To me it appears you won't even try...

Did you even mention the challenge? The topic of the thread..or was it just an elaborate excuse?



So far, everyone has only tried to change the subject.

I didn't catch your point until I re-read it six times. No wonder your post is in random ramblings!

But anyways...I have had some very unusual experiences in my dreams, and I have seen my hands in my dreams.

But your point it seems is that belief is purely a personal subjective thing...

Well...if you claim that, then we can justifiably believe anything!

But...we can't convince or force others to believe it. If you can't prove something, don't make the claim that it is true. Simply say, it is true for me.

But I think I see your point, it is not easy to see your hands in a dream; but it does happen eventually. And it seems -correct me if I'm wrong- that you apply the same logic to God's revelation of himself. To a point, I agree with you. But...

The comparison falls flat on its face due to the fact that...

1. Dreams -just as life- can be very deceiving; dreams are not reality.

2. People who have never heard of God have died and have -according to the bible (or fundamentalist interpretations)- gone to hell. To date, we have not heard of a single person spontaneously finding God in a God-free -so to speak- nation/zone. It is beyond logic to claim that everyone finds God; it is a statistical impossibility.

3. Most atheists, even ones desiring to find God -ex-preachers in particular- have not converted back to Christianity because of a spontaneous revelation. (refer to 4+1)

4. Spontaneous revelation could be claimed about many things; it is all in how you take it. If you are a rational person, you -most likely- won't have a spontaneous revelation of God. (refer to 1)

5. Many desperate/emotionally unstable people are more prone to belief in God. It is simple, when you don't have someone to turn to; turn to an imaginary friend! (many children also share this characteristic!)

I hope this is sufficiently logical; if it isn't tell me why and I'll be happy to debate/discuss it!

(by the way, when I speak of God, I mean the Christian/Theistic/Monotheistic God; not the one I believe in. Which happens to be a force of nature, and can be shown to be true through simply logic.)

[Awediot]

To me it appears you won't even try...

Did you even mention the challenge? The topic of the thread..or was it just an elaborate excuse?



So far, everyone has only tried to change the subject.

I rarely dream, and when I do I have no control over what I go around seeking. Are you trying to make some point about lucid dreaming? Or is it a metaphor?

I'm mean it literally... If you manage to find your hand in a dream, and trigger lucidity as an act of will (difficult, but quite possible), your paradigm will shift, and your request of evidence will take on new meaning. I guarantee it.

The evidence you request must be extraordinary. Well- here you go... Now what?

[Awediot]

Black Philosophy... I'm only speaking of "God" as a self-aware creator, not particularly the Christian version... The request for evidence starts there.

My evidence begins in your sleep. Unless you find it, your logical assessments are a shot in the dark opinion...literally (sort of)

Try it or don't. Why you won't is of little interest to me anymore. It means you won't even try, not that I can't produce... Ball's in your court.

[Fuzzy Dunlop]

I'm mean it literally... If you manage to find your hand in a dream, and trigger lucidity as an act of will (difficult, but quite possible), your paradigm will shift, and your request of evidence will take on new meaning. I guarantee it.

The evidence you request must be extraordinary. Well- here you go... Now what?

Well, if I ever get around to accomplishing lucid dreaming, then I guess I'll see if I suddenly have a paradigm shift. I tend to only dream (or remember my dreams, to be exact) a few times a year, though, so it could take a while.

As for now - surprise - I'm going to ask if you have any way of showing that what you say is true. What are you saying, exactly, anyways? That people who lucid dream... what?

Perhaps you can start by explaining what exactly this paradigm shift entails, and how one's request for evidence will suddenly "take on new meaning" (and what that means). Showing you speak the truth on this matter should be easy, in theory - since many people have lucid dreams, all you have to do is show that all those people share your views on evidence, right?

[Haven]

Why do you think dreams are anything more than hallucinations that occur during sleep? Why do you assign them some sort of significance? After all, we know what they are, we know how they work, we know what causes them, and we know they are entirely naturalistic . . . there is no mystery to dreams.

[Awediot]

I've come to believe atheism is a preferred choice among most atheists. They don't want God to exist...

I used to hate that accusation against therm and would defend them when people made it...but, not any more. Atheism is faith based, clung to and used as a religion... There is no other logical conclusion I can reach.

Denying this is done dogmatically,,,as there is no possible way it could be true (in the atheistic mind-set)

[Fuzzy Dunlop]

I've come to believe atheism is a preferred choice among most atheists. They don't want God to exist...

I used to hate that accusation against therm and would defend them when people made it...but, not any more. Atheism is faith based, clung to and used as a religion... There is no other logical conclusion I can reach.

Denying this is done dogmatically,,,as there is no possible way it could be true (in the atheistic mind-set)

Once again, this is not a conclusion based on the evidence we have about human behaviour. This is Christian dogma.

You don't think I want to live forever? I would love to. But I can't just make myself believe, any more than I can make myself believe the sky is green.

[McCulloch]

I've come to believe atheism is a preferred choice among most atheists. They don't want God to exist...

I've come to believe that theism is a preferred choice among most theists. They want God to exist...

I used to hate that accusation against therm and would defend them when people made it...but, not any more. Atheism is faith based, clung to and used as a religion... There is no other logical conclusion I can reach.

Denying this is done dogmatically,,,as there is no possible way it could be true (in the atheistic mind-set)

Thank you for your opinion on this matter. Is this only your private opinion, or is it based on admissions made to you by atheists? I, for one, would have preferred to continue to believe in an afterlife, a father god. I would have preferred not to have become a pariah and outcast to my friends. Heck, I really did enjoy the singing. Why would I toss all that away, if not for a genuine conviction that it was simply not true?

[Awediot]

Why would I toss all that away, if not for a genuine conviction that it was simply not true?

I don't know. Deducing the motive of others is something I try to avoid...despite believing a majority of atheists choose their position. (not all do)

The conditions they put on evidence disallows God. It's not simple disbelief... Unless a strict formula is met, they won't believe...and it is an impossible formula they are unwilling or unable to make adjustments in.

There is a difference in the two, and it is a difference in motive...and that is between them and what they won't believe in.

[Awediot]

Once again, this is not a conclusion based on the evidence we have about human behaviour. This is Christian dogma.

You don't think I want to live forever? I would love to. But I can't just make myself believe, any more than I can make myself believe the sky is green.

It is a conclusion I've fought tooth and nail against coming to, but all the evidence points to it.

You can't make yourself believe the sky is green because you KNOW it is not. You aren't ignorant about it... You don't KNOW whether God exists or not. You ARE ignorant about that, so it is a different situation... You believe despite not knowing. That is one definition of faith.

Immortality is as much a threat as a promise. There are ample reasons to hope God doesn't exist... Wishful thinking goes both ways...


See, here I guarantee you will better understand how it that people believe in God. I do provide you an extraordinary (a prerequisite) way TO the evidence you supposedly seek...and still, all I get is "prove it'll be there" first, or a mindless "nah" or presumptions about the nature of dreams... Not a single question of 'how might I go about finding my hand" or even "why would that do any good?" - Thus my conclusion that if the evidence doesn't appear in an impossible for anyone to produce form, you WON'T believe.