The Primal Religion

[McCulloch]

Just a thought experiment here, because I can:

Suppose that, at the beginning of human history (when humans became sentient homo sapiens). Suppose that, AT THAT TIME, one religion arose. Now I'm not going to insist upon this next part, but you might want to include it just for kicks and giggles...suppose that the religion that arose was actually taught by God, with prophets, and teachers, and the whole thing. Truth and truth.

What would happen as the populations grew, split and grew again? What would happen as the cultures split off and evolved, one from another?

Linguists can take all the languages in the world and, through examining morphems, phonemes, grammar rules and such parts of the language that simply do not shift well, and trace them all back to two or three common ancestor languages--for all the languages spoken on earth.

If almost all the languages (we haven't nailed Basque down quite yet) can be traced back to a few proto-languages, then what do you think happened to religious beliefs?

Now I'm sure that many of you are reading this and thinking 'By George, she's thinking like an atheist!"

Could be, except for one small thing. How does acknowledging the spread and change of religious beliefs prove that the original one was 'not true?"

Is it possible or likely that there really was a single primal religion? Could that religion be the One True Religion? Which of the prophets, messiahs, imams, apostles and gurus of history were directing humanity back to the primal religion and which ones were moving humanity away? How can you tell? Which modern religious movement most closely resembles the original religion? Why do you say that?

[I AM ALL I AM]

Just a thought experiment here, because I can:

Suppose that, at the beginning of human history (when humans became sentient homo sapiens). Suppose that, AT THAT TIME, one religion arose. Now I'm not going to insist upon this next part, but you might want to include it just for kicks and giggles...suppose that the religion that arose was actually taught by God, with prophets, and teachers, and the whole thing. Truth and truth.

What would happen as the populations grew, split and grew again? What would happen as the cultures split off and evolved, one from another?

Linguists can take all the languages in the world and, through examining morphems, phonemes, grammar rules and such parts of the language that simply do not shift well, and trace them all back to two or three common ancestor languages--for all the languages spoken on earth.

If almost all the languages (we haven't nailed Basque down quite yet) can be traced back to a few proto-languages, then what do you think happened to religious beliefs?

Now I'm sure that many of you are reading this and thinking 'By George, she's thinking like an atheist!"

Could be, except for one small thing. How does acknowledging the spread and change of religious beliefs prove that the original one was 'not true?"

Is it possible or likely that there really was a single primal religion? Could that religion be the One True Religion? Which of the prophets, messiahs, imams, apostles and gurus of history were directing humanity back to the primal religion and which ones were moving humanity away? How can you tell? Which modern religious movement most closely resembles the original religion? Why do you say that?

G'day McCulloch.

For someone to make the claim that they are a follower of 'The One True Religion', they would have to supply a mountain of information to support such a claim considering the lack of information supporting the KNOWN existence of any deity.

Anyway, here's some information from that mountain that might be of interest to some people in relationship to this topic ...


[center]The Hero With A Thousand Faces

by
Joseph Campbell

The Joseph Campbell Foundation

Wikipedia link for ...

The Hero With A Thousand Faces

The Power Of Myth

[youtube][/youtube]

[youtube][/youtube]

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The Dawn of the Goddess


The goddess religion came from Africa with modern humans 100,000 years ago. This may be inferred from the fact that very similar goddess stories are found on all continents, suggesting that the stories were known before modern people migrated to Europe; Asia, the Americas, and Australia. In Europe, (France) there are some recently discovered caves decorated with paintings and carvings which have been dated between 30,340 and 32,410 BP (before present).

http://www.big.com.au/fallen/dawn.html


A Search for the White Goddess

The White Goddess is one of the names given to the Earth Mother; the Moon goddess, to Venus, Astarte, Lilith, Belili, the Muses, the Three Graces and to innumerable other female deities. She is found in the myths and legends of all cultures. The stories and attributes of the white goddess are remarkably similar in nations as far apart as Ireland and China, and this points to a very ancient common source for the myths, which appear to have come out of Africa with Homo sapiens 100,000 years ago.

This was a nature-based religion which involved close observation and celebration of the seasons and of the moon and the planets. Its bible was written in the stars for all to see, and its hymns were the songs of birds and the sighings of the breeze. The worship of the White Goddess reached its highest level in the time of the Minoans (say 1600 BC). In that period, the sea-trading Minoans carried their religion from their ports in the Mediterranean as far as Ireland in the west; and to tropical Asia in the east. Of the goddess-temples founded, the highest may have been that of Sappho on the island of Lesbos. The goddess-temples are of great importance to scholars, for they are the source of the alphabet we use; the musical scales we use, of the concept of poetry, of the calendar, of astronomy and history, and of formal mathematics and the sciences. This culture fell in a cataclysm in approximately 1600 BC, but was resumed by Achaeans (proto-Greeks), and by other civilisations honouring the nature goddess. The temple's role at the pinnacle of human culture and achievement lasted until the second century anno domine, when the the high priestess of the temple of Isis was murdered. The fall of the temple on the Nile marked the end of goddess-worship as a manifest or established religion, and the beginning of the Goddess' long career in hidden religion, that is, in the occult .

http://www.big.com.au/fallen/

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THE WORD OBEAH


... Now, while it is true that the ORIGIN of the word is indeed obscured and clouded in secrecy, it is primarily because Obeah, as implied above, is in itself clouded in secrecy --- being the remnant of a once very powerful and celebrated SECRET religious Order lost in the mist of time. Even so, slowly over the years clues have surfaced that indicate THAT particular secret religious Order emanated from a certain general geographical area. Those clues, few in number that they may be, strongly point to the fact that the Order originated in or around an area where the Egyptian language was either born, dominant, or used by the priests or religious class --- much as Latin is used by certain religious orders today --- with the power and knowledge of Obeah maintained and rising from the underground ashes of that dispersed Order over the centuries. Considering such a background, it is very probable the etymology of the word sprang from the Egyptian word Ob or Aub, meaning "serpent." Oph is a winged serpent or dragon; and Ab means wisdom/understanding, and together means "Serpent of Wisdom" or "Serpent of Knowledge." To this day Obion is still the Egyptian name for a serpent. . ...

... Moses, who escaped with his people out of Egypt with the full might of the Pharaoh's army hot on their heels all the way to the Red Sea --- where the army reportedly then drowned --- forbade in the name of God, the Israelites even to enquire about the demon Ob, which is translated in the first testament as a necromancer, wizard, or Diviner. In today's world the various translations are wide enough to encompass the type shaman-sorcerer that the infamous Yaqui Indian Don Juan Matus apprenticed under, a Diablero, a new-world tribal spiritual elder known to embody a sense of evilness and the ability to shapeshift. Moses himself carries a great deal of importance in all those translations, including right up to this day with Obeah. Even though Moses forbade enquiry into Ob amongst his people, he is seen as the ultimate snake-charmer and among the greatest of magicians. When Moses doubted he was really hearing the voice of God, he was asked what he was holding in his hand. When he replied that he was holding a rod, he is commanded to throw it to the ground. When he does, the rod becomes a serpent. When he picks it up it becomes a rod again. Later, under the direction of Moses, when Aaron throws his rod down before Pharaoh, it becomes a snake as well.(Exodus 7:1-16) . ...

... Throughout the ancient world, the Middle East and Egypt, because of the brilliantly clear desert night skys, the stars and the constellations carried deep significance, both for the wandering tribes such as those following Moses and the great civilizations and city-states such as Babylonia, Sumeria, and Egypt. Ophiuchus the Serpent Bearer is one of those desert-sky constellations. Most people pretty much know what the Zodiac is --- the constellations on the plane of the ecliptic through which the sun passes in the course of a year --- and what their "Sun Sign" is in relation to the Zodiac (i.e., Sagittarius, Taurus, etc.). What most people don't know is that there are actually thirteen Sun Signs, NOT twelve. According to the official modern constellation boundaries that astronomers use today, the sun passes through thirteen constellations, not twelve. The Greeks chose to remove one of the original thirteen constellations from the Zodiac in order to accomplish their desire to have each sign rule for an even 30º of sky, so they selected Ophiuchus to be eliminated. It can only be because of his origins in Egypt as one of their most powerful dieties, on par with Osiris and Thoth, all of whom answered only to Ra. Mysteriously enough, just like Obeah is secret, hidden, and unknown, the "thirteenth constellation" of the Zodiac, Ophiuchus the Serpent Bearer is secret, hidden, and unknown. About one person in twenty is an "Ophiuchus," and they don't even know it. ...

... The peoples of ancient times (most typically the Pythagoreans, but others as well) had a legend that a kind of Light, described as a "living fire," flowed through all living things. Guarding this Flame was the serpent Ophioneus, very similar in respects to his nearly same namesake Ophiuchus. He was said to lay coiled in the Waters of Life. If anyone obstructed or hindered the Light of the Flame, Ophioneus would rise out of the water like a monster and consume them. The Greek philosopher Pherecydes (circa 600-550 BC) wrote a great deal about Ophioneus, having obtained the doctrines from the Phoenicians, also known as Ophites (Greece was first colonized by Ophites, serpent worshippers from both Egypt and Phoenicia). The Ophites venerated a serpent by the deity-title Ab, sometimes rendered Ob and Ob Aur, meaning Father --- as in the procreator of All. They also had the watery serpent Leviathan or Thiavat, which is same as Ophioneus. All of this ties into Abaddon that appears in Revelations as the Angel of the Abyss. It is unclear if the forces of the Abyss are fully good or evil in any way. The Obic forces that guard the Light and keep it flowing apparently take it by whatever means necessary and return it back to where it belongs when a person fails to let it flow or obstructs it. ...

http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/awa ... beah2.html [/center]

... and this isn't even the the whole 'tip of the iceberg', let alone the whole 'iceberg'. There's also ...


[center][youtube][/youtube]


&


[youtube][/youtube][/center]


... and even IF there is some 'primal religion', it doesn't mean that such a religion was anything other than a mythological tale.

[catalyst]

I don't disagree that religion started somewhere. I'm saying the starting point is waaaay too far back in prehistory for us to ever know anything substantial about it.

The oldest religious icon appears to be a snake God, carved about 70,000 years ago (assuming that it IS a god, just not art).

That's actually a good point Goat. Has it been presumed to be a "god" by god minded thinkers, or it was merely some bloke or chick from waaaaayy back making pictures of the nature around them to show the impact that particular creature had on their existence.

That said though, I can actually understand people revering animals as humans have learned A LOT from other species and those well before US recorded that the only way they could at the time. I doubt too many humans in this day and age actually think about just how humans observing other species have lead to MANY an alleged HUMAN INVENTION: airconditioning, skyscrapers, wheels, rafts, boats, refrigeration systems....etc etc etc.

It seems to me that the HUMAN style "god"concept is a relatively new (in the whole scheme of things) invent. Anything prior to a mere couple of thousand years ago were other animals and a lot of them are either insects, bugs or reptiles of some form or another. Then there was a progression to other mammal species... then half human/half cat/dog...etc hybrids.. and then we finally arrive... to some god allegedly making "us" (we humans) in his image.... odd though how all the assumed god models prior...or at least the animals that supposedly depicted "gods" are now assumed the underlings... the lesser important...to the human god model.

I suppose as humans got "wankier" the god model HAD to change to feed the human ego.

Cat.

[Oldfarmhouse]

[I AM ALL I AM]

I don't disagree that religion started somewhere. I'm saying the starting point is waaaay too far back in prehistory for us to ever know anything substantial about it.

The oldest religious icon appears to be a snake God, carved about 70,000 years ago (assuming that it IS a god, just not art).

That's actually a good point Goat. Has it been presumed to be a "god" by god minded thinkers, or it was merely some bloke or chick from waaaaayy back making pictures of the nature around them to show the impact that particular creature had on their existence.

That said though, I can actually understand people revering animals as humans have learned A LOT from other species and those well before US recorded that the only way they could at the time. I doubt too many humans in this day and age actually think about just how humans observing other species have lead to MANY an alleged HUMAN INVENTION: airconditioning, skyscrapers, wheels, rafts, boats, refrigeration systems....etc etc etc.

It seems to me that the HUMAN style "god"concept is a relatively new (in the whole scheme of things) invent. Anything prior to a mere couple of thousand years ago were other animals and a lot of them are either insects, bugs or reptiles of some form or another. Then there was a progression to other mammal species... then half human/half cat/dog...etc hybrids.. and then we finally arrive... to some god allegedly making "us" (we humans) in his image.... odd though how all the assumed god models prior...or at least the animals that supposedly depicted "gods" are now assumed the underlings... the lesser important...to the human god model.

I suppose as humans got "wankier" the god model HAD to change to feed the human ego.

Cat.

G'day Goat & Catalyst.

I was going to respond to your post originally Goat and ask you if it is the Basilisk ...

[center][/center]

The Phoenician serpent god, alias Basilisk. The serpent, as well as the image of the sun, is always a phallic symbol in ancient religion. Basilisk is where the Roman Catholic Church got the name-- St. Peter's Basilica. Basilica is the old Greek name for the temple of the phallic god. How appropriate this is in view of the perpetual obsessions of the priests of "Mother Church." It also is well complimented by the obelisk in St. Peter's square which is a world wide phallic symbol complete with the phallic ball on top.

... which would again bring us into the astrotheology realm with the 13th (or 'hidden') star sign, Ophiuchus ... the snake holder. There is also the word 'vatican' that comes from Latin and is a contraction of two words in the following way:

'Vatis' = 'prophetic' or 'diviner'
'Can' = 'serpent/snake'

Apparently the word 'Seraph' (Dictionary: SERAPH n. one of the highest orders of angels) has worried Biblical translators and commentators over the years. It is translated as "fiery serpent" in the King James version.

[center][/center]

Ophiuchus (pronounced off-ee-YOO-cuss) represents a man with a snake coiled around his waist. He holds the head of the snake in his left hand and its tail in his right hand. The snake is represented by the constellation Serpens.

http://www.ianridpath.com/startales/ophiuchus.htm

... which can be traced through almost every single religion on every continent. The correlations with Ascelepius being placed in the sky by Apollo in the constellation of Ophiuchus; the correlations with Hermes Trismegistus (Hermes thrice-great) whom the Greeks 'borrowed' from the Egyptian pantheon god Thoth, are examples.

How many more correlations are there ?

[center]The Tree of Life[/center]

In a cave where an ancient urn was found that had been used by the Scythians for burning marijuana, there was also a massive felt rug, which measured 5 by 7 metres. The carpet had a border frieze with a repeated pattern of a horseman approaching the Great Goddess, who holds the Tree of Life in one hand and raises the other in welcome.

Imagery of the Goddess and the Tree of Life is also found amongst other cultures with whom the Scythians came into contact. Readers of part three in this series (CC#5) will remember that the ancient Canaanites and also Hebrews paid particular reverence to the Near Eastern Goddess Ashera, whose cult was particularly focussed around the use of marijuana.

According to the Bible itself, the ancient worshippers of Ashera included wise King Solomon and other biblical kings, as well as their wives and the daughters of Jerusalem. The Old Testament prophets often chastised them for "offering up incense" to the Queen of Heaven.

Like the imagery on the Scythian carpet, icons dedicated to Ashera also have depictions of a "sacred-tree", most likely a reference to the cannabis that her followers grew and revered, using it as a sacrament, as a food and oil source, and also using the fibres in ritual weavings.

Eve: cultural hero

Among her other titles, Ashera was known as "the Goddess of the Tree of Life", "the Divine Lady of Eden" and "the Lady of the Serpent". Ashera was often depicted as a woman holding one or more serpents in her hands. It was Ashera's serpent who advised Eve to disobey the male god's command not to partake of the sacred tree.

The historical record shows that the Old Testament version of the myth of Eve, the serpent and the sacred tree was concocted as propaganda against pre-existing Goddess cults.

Originally, the outcome of the Eden myth was not tragic, but triumphant. The serpent brought wisdom, and after the magic fruit was eaten, Adam himself became a god. What was originally involved was probably a psychedelic sacrament, like the Elusian festival in Athens, in which the worshipper ate certain hallucinogenic foods and became one with the Mother Goddess Demeter.

Like the Tree of Life, the Tree of Knowledge was a symbol associated with the Goddess. The rites associated with her worship were designed to induce a consciousness open to the revelation of divine or mystical truths. In these rites cannabis and other magical plants were used, and women officiated as priestesses.

http://zzco.org/z/chris_bennett/goddess.html

... way too many to list off in one post.

[ThatGirlAgain]

[TheJackelantern]

Not very hard at all to understand how "religion" might have evolved:


Chimpanzees regularly preform rituals and/or worship waterfalls and thunderstorms.


And if you notice, religion thrives the strongest amongst nations of the most ignorant and poor nature.. The most Countries where less than 5% attending church are the richest, most educated, have the lowest rate of people in prison, longest lasting marriages and the most caring medical systems; Finland, Norway, Denmark & Holland are examples.

And if you haven't noticed.. The more Fanatical and Theocritus America becomes, the more it spirals into economic and educational down fall. Especially when religious groups are attacking the education system and trying to take down the department of education and the foundation of science. If you haven't noticed the divide between the rich and the poor is becoming an ever greater rift. The cost of tuition is so expensive now that it's getting to the point where education only becomes an option for the rich, or an almost life sentence of debt for the middle class and poor. And religion thrives on human weakness and vulnerabilities.. They don't call the Bible Belt Tornado Alley for no reason. And it's no surpirse that most religions in the world developed along Volcanic and geological active regions in the world....

[Flail]

Just a thought experiment here, because I can:

Suppose that, at the beginning of human history (when humans became sentient homo sapiens). Suppose that, AT THAT TIME, one religion arose. Now I'm not going to insist upon this next part, but you might want to include it just for kicks and giggles...suppose that the religion that arose was actually taught by God, with prophets, and teachers, and the whole thing. Truth and truth.

What would happen as the populations grew, split and grew again? What would happen as the cultures split off and evolved, one from another?

Linguists can take all the languages in the world and, through examining morphems, phonemes, grammar rules and such parts of the language that simply do not shift well, and trace them all back to two or three common ancestor languages--for all the languages spoken on earth.

If almost all the languages (we haven't nailed Basque down quite yet) can be traced back to a few proto-languages, then what do you think happened to religious beliefs?

Now I'm sure that many of you are reading this and thinking 'By George, she's thinking like an atheist!"

Could be, except for one small thing. How does acknowledging the spread and change of religious beliefs prove that the original one was 'not true?"

Is it possible or likely that there really was a single primal religion? Could that religion be the One True Religion? Which of the prophets, messiahs, imams, apostles and gurus of history were directing humanity back to the primal religion and which ones were moving humanity away? How can you tell? Which modern religious movement most closely resembles the original religion? Why do you say that?

Since all religions deal with the same un-evidenced, non-discerbible subject matter (God and His expectations of us) and since they were all created by humans seeking to answer the unknowable and to bring afterlife possibilities to the fore to comfort and control followers, it is not surprising that have both similarities and differences and that they evolve. Without evidence in the first place to ground them, we humans are going to change them somewhat for a variety of self-serving reasons as time moves forward; but it seems to me that this evolution would be exactly the same whether or not the original version was from God or from man.

[Mr.Badham]

Just as I thought. Religions are moving farther and farther from the truth as time goes on. Without evidence there is no way to right them. They must be abandoned before it's too late!!!

[Crazee]

[revelationtestament]

"Is it possible or likely that there really was a single primal religion? Could that religion be the One True Religion? Which of the prophets, messiahs, imams, apostles and gurus of history were directing humanity back to the primal religion and which ones were moving humanity away? How can you tell?"

Being that so many religions have a flood story - many have 3 major gods, and many involved sacrifice, and many believe in a resurrection, and that we have a spirit, etc, it seems likely that they had a common origin. According to the Bible, this is what happened. After the flood, Noah's sons split up, and took their religious ideas with them. For instance, Ham went to Egypt. Thus, we do see the three major gods in Egyptian antiquity, and the idea of resurrection as well.


"Which modern religious movement most closely resembles the original religion? Why do you say that?"
According to the Bible Adam was taught about the Tree of Life. We find the Tree of Life in Revelation too. The New Testament says that God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoso believeth on Him should not perish but have everlasting life. Thus Jesus was and is this Tree of Life from the very beginning, till the end where it appears in the New Jerusalem for the healing of the nations. Same theology from the beginning till the end. Now I will grant you that the Old Testament is very short on the early history, but it does appear that there was a priesthood before Moses, because his father-in-law had it. Therefore, if one assumes it came from Adam, this would be the primal religion of God. However, I will grant you that God has revealed and continues to reveal more of His truth as time has passed so the religion has "evolved" if you will.